Author Topic: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police  (Read 1112 times)

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Offline RoosGirl

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Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« on: August 28, 2017, 03:32:06 pm »
President Donald Trump will revive a program that provides local police departments with surplus military equipment such as high-caliber weapons and grenade launchers, despite past concerns that armored vehicles and other gear were inflaming confrontations with protesters.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced the program to roaring applause Monday at a national convention of the Fraternal Order of Police, one of the groups that had long urged Trump to restore the military program.

The plan will "ensure that you can get the lifesaving gear that you need to do your job and send a strong message that we will not allow criminal activity, violence, and lawlessness to become a new normal," Sessions told the cheering crowd.

Trump plans to sign an order undoing Obama-era limitations on police agencies' access to camouflage uniforms, bullet-proof vests, riot shields, firearms, ammunition and other items. The changes are another way in which Trump and Sessions are enacting a law-and-order agenda that sees federal support of local police as key to driving down violent crime.

Groups across the political spectrum have expressed concern about the militarization of police, arguing that the equipment encourages and escalates confrontations with officers. But many law enforcement agencies and policing organizations see it as needed to ensure officers aren't put in danger when responding to active shooter calls and terrorist attacks. An armored vehicle played a key role in the police response to the December 2015 mass shooting in San Bernardino, California.

Congress authorized the Pentagon program in 1990, allowing police to receive surplus equipment to help fight drugs, which then gave way to the fight against terrorism.

President Barack Obama issued an executive order in 2015 that severely limited the program, partly triggered by public outrage over the use of military gear during protests in Ferguson, Missouri, following the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown. Police responded in riot gear and deployed tear gas, dogs and armored vehicles. At times they also pointed assault rifles at protesters.

Obama's order prohibited the federal government from providing grenade launchers, bayonets, tracked armored vehicles, weaponized aircraft and vehicles, and firearms and ammunition of .50-caliber or greater to police.

"Those restrictions went too far," Sessions said. "We will not put superficial concerns above public safety."

As of December, the agency overseeing the program had recalled at least 100 grenade launchers, more than 1,600 bayonets and 126 tracked vehicles — those that run on continuous, tank-like tracks instead of wheels — that were provided through the program.

Trump vowed to rescind the executive order in a written response to a Fraternal Order of Police questionnaire that helped him win an endorsement from the organization of rank-and-file officers. He reiterated his promise during a gathering of police officers in July, saying the equipment still on the streets is being put to good use.

Continued - http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/national-govt--politics/trump-rolling-back-limits-military-gear-for-police/nKC1oZUekAf2eh0IgdlQFO/

Offline RetBobbyMI

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 03:36:52 pm »
How long will it take someone in the Ninth Circuit area to run to the courts?
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 04:38:20 pm »
I have mixed feelings on this,  as I too am concerned about the militarization of  our police; but I am all for giving them the necessary gear and protection to do their jobs.

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Report: Trump to Lift Obama Ban on Military Grade Weaponry to Police
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 04:43:37 pm »
Report: Trump to Lift Obama Ban on Military Grade Weaponry to Police

August 28, 2017| by Donn Marten

When racial rioting broke out in Ferguson, Missouri back in 2014 after a teenage thug named Mike Brown was killed while trying to get a hold of a police officer’s gun, images of cops with equipment that appeared better suited for the battlefield than the domestic streets shocked many as the media created a heightened state of hysteria.

Events in Ferguson led then President Barack Obama to sign an executive order effectively putting an end to what was known as the 1033 program where surplus military gear was provided to civilian law enforcement agencies.

https://downtrend.com/donn-marten/report-trump-to-lift-obama-ban-on-military-grade-weaponry-to-police

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 05:59:46 pm »
I have mixed feelings on this,  as I too am concerned about the militarization of  our police; but I am all for giving them the necessary gear and protection to do their jobs.

Agreed.  It's hard for me to pick a "side" on this.

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 06:20:02 pm »
The last thing I want to see are LEO's rolling up in full on assault tanks and offensive military style vehicles. We are not a 3 rd world dictatorship having to put down a armed rebellion.....well not yet anyway.

The militarization of our police is a bad thing...A bigly bad bad thing.  Trump needs to step back on this one.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 06:30:49 pm »
The last thing I want to see are LEO's rolling up in full on assault tanks and offensive military style vehicles. We are not a 3 rd world dictatorship having to put down a armed rebellion.....well not yet anyway.

The militarization of our police is a bad thing...A bigly bad bad thing.  Trump needs to step back on this one.

I completely agree with this.  However, I also think that there are some mob/riot situations where putting a police officers life in danger is not an acceptable choice either.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 06:35:41 pm »
Defensive gear is ok, body armor, some kinds of surveillance equipment.

But grenade launchers? Definitely no bueno.

But as with so much of the reporting on this administration, best wait awhile to see what the actual truth of the matter is.

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 06:52:16 pm »
Defensive gear is ok, body armor, some kinds of surveillance equipment.

But grenade launchers? Definitely no bueno.

But as with so much of the reporting on this administration, best wait awhile to see what the actual truth of the matter is.

Spot on.

I can't think of an event where a grenade launcher was "needed" that didn't involve the National Guard or the Feds coming in (and screwing it up).  My local sheriff doesn't need a  grenade launcher.  Give that stuff to the Guard or sell it to the Europeans so they can start picking up the slack.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 06:52:53 pm by InHeavenThereIsNoBeer »
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2017, 06:56:57 pm »
I have mixed feelings on this,  as I too am concerned about the militarization of  our police; but I am all for giving them the necessary gear and protection to do their jobs.

Basically where I am.

My problems are thus:

What people call militarization, maybe only superficially military, and in reality may be non-lethal, and will save lives, as opposed to just... killing people.

The police "armored cars", what people call tanks, are hardly tanks. They usually have no mounted weapons. They are defensive and protective only.

A police "armored car" is no M1a1 Abrams.

Although, to be honest, I cannot think of a conceivable reason a police department needs a grenade launcher.

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2017, 06:59:58 pm »
And if my local sheriff did have a grenade launcher (that they don't need), they'd either have to waste a lot of money keeping people up to date on training, or it would be worse than not having it in the first place.

I like to think I'd make this same argument if I was a deputy, even though it would mean I wouldn't get to play train with a grenade launcher.
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Wingnut

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2017, 07:07:57 pm »
Basically where I am.

My problems are thus:

What people call militarization, maybe only superficially military, and in reality may be non-lethal, and will save lives, as opposed to just... killing people.

The police "armored cars", what people call tanks, are hardly tanks. They usually have no mounted weapons. They are defensive and protective only.

A police "armored car" is no M1a1 Abrams.

Although, to be honest, I cannot think of a conceivable reason a police department needs a grenade launcher.


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Offline RetBobbyMI

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2017, 07:52:55 pm »
Defensive gear is ok, body armor, some kinds of surveillance equipment.

But grenade launchers? Definitely no bueno.

But as with so much of the reporting on this administration, best wait awhile to see what the actual truth of the matter is.
Grenade Launchers got you hooked by the media. That is just what Zero's ExOrd prohibited, and is what the silly media and leftLibs focus on.  There are plenty of passive, for the lack of a better term, militarized equipment other than arms and munitions.  Zero even ruled out left over MRAPs back from the Gulf and Afghanistan to be used just for protection. 
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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 08:21:20 pm »
The last thing I want to see are LEO's rolling up in full on assault tanks and offensive military style vehicles. We are not a 3 rd world dictatorship having to put down a armed rebellion.....well not yet anyway.

The militarization of our police is a bad thing...A bigly bad bad thing.  Trump needs to step back on this one.

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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2017, 08:55:05 pm »
'Common place' arms for most citizens are revolvers, handguns, rifles, shotguns and ammunition, of all various different types and quantities. There are some citizens that have gone further and have semi-autos and sub machine guns and body armor.  If our police departments become better armed and each station has a small arsenal that indeed could overtake the citizens; we're in trouble. Especially when some states won't allow citizens to legally gather for any type of para military training or assemble as a militia.

Many see President Trump as a conservative, but I see this step as a bit excessive with the possibility of things going very liberal and leaning towards gun confiscation.  The governor of Oregon has already signed a bill to do just that.
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Offline edpc

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2017, 11:42:20 pm »
Send in the caaarrrrr........


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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2017, 11:46:13 pm »
There's a similar thread to this one that was posted earlier by @Cripplecreek .  I wonder if the two should be combined?  @Mod1

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2017, 11:54:52 pm »
There's a similar thread to this one that was posted earlier by @Cripplecreek .  I wonder if the two should be combined?  @Mod1
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2017, 11:59:17 pm »
Oh, ok.  I'll have to find it.

The things you know...

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2017, 01:38:43 am »
An article on this subject from 4 years ago written by an old and now dearly departed friend of mine--Willie Grigg. Man could he play a mean guitar. 

"Pedro Offers You His Protection": The Preston PD Gets a Combat Vehicle

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/william-norman-grigg/every-little-town-with-a-cop-tank/

"Pedro Offers You His Protection": The Preston PD Gets a Combat Vehicle

“Law enforcement may know things you don’t know,” he told me. “All you think about is sunshine and happiness, but police can’t go in with their eyes shut.” Although Geddes maintains that he’s received no negative feedback from the public in Preston, he readily deploys the familiar “uniforms that guard” trope in dealing with potential critics: “People who resist this trend, who say that we shouldn’t be getting equipment like this, live under the protection of what the protest.”

From Chief Geddes’ perspective, it’s unlikely that police can ever be too powerful, because their conspicuous presence is the only thing that prevents violent chaos from descending on society.

“How many people are saved because of law enforcement – because of crimes that weren’t committed, or violations that didn’t occur?” he asks. “How many people are alive because we patrol the streets and highways? How many people would have committed crimes if we weren’t there? Sometimes they didn’t do anything because they saw the force [that the police represent].”

Chief Geddes, who intended that those questions be taken as rhetorical in nature, is apparently unaware that they were answered more than four decades ago. In 1972, with financial backing and technical assistance provided by the Police Foundation, the Kansas City Police conducted a year-long study to measure the deterrent effect of police patrol. That survey concluded that police patrols had no documented impact on the crime rate.
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Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2017, 01:49:28 am »
IMO, this idea isn't a good one.

Neither is listing Antifa a terrorist organization. Or the BLM. Or the Nazis. Or any other group in this country. I am talking about homegrown organizations and not groups tied to islamic international jihad.

Put the two together. The militarization of police and groups listed as terrorists. Kill the 1stA. Kill the 2ndA. Kiss your A goodbye.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2017, 02:57:10 am »
An article on this subject from 4 years ago written by an old and now dearly departed friend of mine--Willie Grigg. Man could he play a mean guitar. 

"Pedro Offers You His Protection": The Preston PD Gets a Combat Vehicle

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/william-norman-grigg/every-little-town-with-a-cop-tank/

"Pedro Offers You His Protection": The Preston PD Gets a Combat Vehicle

“Law enforcement may know things you don’t know,” he told me. “All you think about is sunshine and happiness, but police can’t go in with their eyes shut.” Although Geddes maintains that he’s received no negative feedback from the public in Preston, he readily deploys the familiar “uniforms that guard” trope in dealing with potential critics: “People who resist this trend, who say that we shouldn’t be getting equipment like this, live under the protection of what the protest.”

From Chief Geddes’ perspective, it’s unlikely that police can ever be too powerful, because their conspicuous presence is the only thing that prevents violent chaos from descending on society.

“How many people are saved because of law enforcement – because of crimes that weren’t committed, or violations that didn’t occur?” he asks. “How many people are alive because we patrol the streets and highways? How many people would have committed crimes if we weren’t there? Sometimes they didn’t do anything because they saw the force [that the police represent].”

Chief Geddes, who intended that those questions be taken as rhetorical in nature, is apparently unaware that they were answered more than four decades ago. In 1972, with financial backing and technical assistance provided by the Police Foundation, the Kansas City Police conducted a year-long study to measure the deterrent effect of police patrol. That survey concluded that police patrols had no documented impact on the crime rate.


That's an article worth reading.
Quote
“Law enforcement may know things you don’t know,” he told me. “All you think about is sunshine and happiness, but police can’t go in with their eyes shut.” Although Geddes maintains that he’s received no negative feedback from the public in Preston, he readily deploys the familiar “uniforms that guard” trope in dealing with potential critics: “People who resist this trend, who say that we shouldn’t be getting equipment like this, live under the protection of what the protest.”

Ummm....yeah.   *****rollingeyes*****

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2017, 03:28:10 am »
That's an article worth reading.

We reconnected with the author a few years back through a victim's rights advocacy group. I went to high school with him and stayed close friends for a decade after. Then lost touch. Willie (William Norman Grigg) died of a heart attack on April 12.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

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Re: Trump rolling back limits on military gear for police
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 04:33:49 am »
The last thing I want to see are LEO's rolling up in full on assault tanks and offensive military style vehicles. We are not a 3 rd world dictatorship having to put down a armed rebellion.....well not yet anyway.

The militarization of our police is a bad thing...A bigly bad bad thing.  Trump needs to step back on this one.

I think you are right.  Bad thing.  Bad, bad.  Police state. 
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