White House Sets Rules for Military Transgender Ban

[txradioguy]

Excellent take on both issues ... the Jazz Man and the military.

I agree on a lot of @Jazzhead ideas.  I think Republicans would be better served by not focusing so much on irrelevant social issues that are fueled by outdated prejudices and ideas.

We disagree strongly on the abortion issue.  He cannot bring himself to be totally pro-life and that hurts me.

But, as usual, you are spot on about the Military and its purpose.

You do realize don't you...that those " irrelevant social issues that are fueled by outdated prejudices and ideas." are what have led us to the Sodom and Gomorrah type society where anything goes America we live in today.

Those "outdated" ideal that you mock is the precise attitude that has led to so many incidents of 50 year old teachers thinking it's perfectly ok to have sex with 13 year old students.

All those stodgy outdated and irrelevant "social issues" and the wrong headed views on them like you have are what has opened the door to the flourishing of Liberalism and unless we find a way to make social issues important again...what we see happening with the attempts to erase history...the rise of BLM and a whole laundry list of sexual deviancies we see going on around us today.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

You do realize don't you...that those " irrelevant social issues that are fueled by outdated prejudices and ideas." are what have led us to the Sodom and Gomorrah type society where anything goes America we live in today.

Those "outdated" ideal that you mock is the precise attitude that has led to so many incidents of 50 year old teachers thinking it's perfectly ok to have sex with 13 year old students.

All those stodgy outdated and irrelevant "social issues" and the wrong headed views on them like you have are what has opened the door to the flourishing of Liberalism and unless we find a way to make social issues important again...what we see happening with the attempts to erase history...the rise of BLM and a whole laundry list of sexual deviancies we see going on around us today.

I don't really disagree with you, but there is a different between the government legislating morality, and the morality that we as groups/individuals choose to advance on our own.  What we teach in schools is a big part of that, though that should be a separate issue from what national politicians are doing in Washington.

[txradioguy]

I don't really disagree with you, but there is a different between the government legislating morality, and the morality that we as groups/individuals choose to advance on our own.  What we teach in schools is a big part of that, though that should be a separate issue from what national politicians are doing in Washington.

Right now we're having government legislate morality at all levels.  Educational...in the work place both civilian and military.

Look if someone wants to teach within the privacy of their own homes that it's ok to be gay...gay marriage is acceptable and gender fluidity is a normal part of life...go for it.

Where I have an issue is when we're told we're intolerable bigots if we disagree with that kind of belief.

People can say "well we're not hearing much out of the military about this so they must be fine with it".  No.  that's false.

The climate for these types of issues is so toxic right now that by and large the majority of us in uniform are too scared to say anything because to not spout the party line can end our career.  There are mandatory bullets on NCOER's now that state whether or not you support the SHARP and EO policies.  Getting a no on that is worse than a bullet about a failed APFT.

Bottom line we have the government legislating morality to us in ways we don't even realize.  It's not the big in your face conflagrations that should worry us as much as the unseen unheard daily things that most people aren't even aware are in place for this stuff.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Right now we're having government legislate morality at all levels.  Educational...in the work place both civilian and military.

Look if someone wants to teach within the privacy of their own homes that it's ok to be gay...gay marriage is acceptable and gender fluidity is a normal part of life...go for it.

Where I have an issue is when we're told we're intolerable bigots if we disagree with that kind of belief.

People can say "well we're not hearing much out of the military about this so they must be fine with it".  No.  that's false.

The climate for these types of issues is so toxic right now that by and large the majority of us in uniform are too scared to say anything because to not spout the party line can end our career.  There are mandatory bullets on NCOER's now that state whether or not you support the SHARP and EO policies.  Getting a no on that is worse than a bullet about a failed APFT.

Bottom line we have the government legislating morality to us in ways we don't even realize.  It's not the big in your face conflagrations that should worry us as much as the unseen unheard daily things that most people aren't even aware are in place for this stuff.

No argument there.  And I do agree that government action can shift public morality -- best example of that is gay marriage.

I give bonus points to Trump for making this transgender announcement himself rather than doing it through Mattis and the Pentagon.  Had Mattis been the one to announce this, he'd have become the lightning rod for attacks in the press and in Congress.  By stepping out in front on this issue, Trump has taken a lot of the political heat that might otherwise go to Mattis.  That's a classy move, intentional or not.

It is difficult to explain to those who haven't served the ripple effect of things like Obama's transgender policy.  It gives troops a trump card they can play on superiors, because their "medical needs" will inevitably come before the mission.  then the ridiculous things about which uniforms they would wear, which physical standards they would be required to meet, berthing issues....just a freaking nightmare all around if a unit is unfortunate enough have someone making those demands.

[txradioguy]

No argument there.  And I do agree that government action can shift public morality -- best example of that is gay marriage.

I give bonus points to Trump for making this transgender announcement himself rather than doing it through Mattis and the Pentagon.  Had Mattis been the one to announce this, he'd have become the lightning rod for attacks in the press and in Congress.  By stepping out in front on this issue, Trump has taken a lot of the political heat that might otherwise go to Mattis.  That's a classy move, intentional or not.

It is difficult to explain to those who haven't served the ripple effect of things like Obama's transgender policy.  It gives troops a trump card they can play on superiors, because their "medical needs" will inevitably come before the mission.  then the ridiculous things about which uniforms they would wear, which physical standards they would be required to meet, berthing issues....just a freaking nightmare all around if a unit is unfortunate enough have someone making those demands.

Nothing I could possibly add the that except

 

[Emjay]

I don't really disagree with you, but there is a different between the government legislating morality, and the morality that we as groups/individuals choose to advance on our own.  What we teach in schools is a big part of that, though that should be a separate issue from what national politicians are doing in Washington.

Your response is better than mine would have been.  My whole point, ignored by @txradioguy is putting government into these moral issues.

[Emjay]

You do realize don't you...that those " irrelevant social issues that are fueled by outdated prejudices and ideas." are what have led us to the Sodom and Gomorrah type society where anything goes America we live in today.

Those "outdated" ideal that you mock is the precise attitude that has led to so many incidents of 50 year old teachers thinking it's perfectly ok to have sex with 13 year old students.

All those stodgy outdated and irrelevant "social issues" and the wrong headed views on them like you have are what has opened the door to the flourishing of Liberalism and unless we find a way to make social issues important again...what we see happening with the attempts to erase history...the rise of BLM and a whole laundry list of sexual deviancies we see going on around us today.

Look, I'm as stodgy and outdated as the next guy but I think you exaggerate the prevalence of sexual deviancies and other examples of lack of morality.

Yes, it makes me cringe to read about some of the things that go on.  You would not believe how utterly conservative I've been in my whole lifestyle.

I don't like it .... but but but ... It's fueled by the Internet.  Advertisers just love to tease us with stories about this or that horrible disgusting thing so we will click on the story and go, OMG, we're going to hell in a handbasket.

We are not that bad off as a society. We just know stuff we didn't use to know.  It's disgusting but it's totally media driven and not as bad as you think.

My whole point is that it is not a matter for government except when it comes to laws and the military.

The bathroom bill is an example.  Most people hate that kind of thing and that's where we need to put our focus and not in being the party of bedroom looking.

[Taxcontrol]

1) classify transgender surgery as cosmetic and do not cover under either Active duty or VA programs
2) Bar to enlistment of those that have transitioned
3) Deny or revoke any security clearance for any existing trans
4) Order soldiers to wear the required uniform in accordance with their chromosomes
5) Classify trans and homo as mental defects .  Discharge for the benefit of the miltary

In four years, the problem will have fixed itself

[Wingnut]

1) classify transgender surgery as cosmetic and do not cover under either Active duty or VA programs
2) Bar to enlistment of those that have transitioned
3) Deny or revoke any security clearance for any existing trans
4) Order soldiers to wear the required uniform in accordance with their chromosomes
5) Classify trans and homo as mental defects .  Discharge for the benefit of the miltary

In four years, the problem will have fixed itself

I can fix a dog in less time. 

[RoosGirl]

Look, I'm as stodgy and outdated as the next guy but I think you exaggerate the prevalence of sexual deviancies and other examples of lack of morality.

Yes, it makes me cringe to read about some of the things that go on.  You would not believe how utterly conservative I've been in my whole lifestyle.

I don't like it .... but but but ... It's fueled by the Internet.  Advertisers just love to tease us with stories about this or that horrible disgusting thing so we will click on the story and go, OMG, we're going to hell in a handbasket.

We are not that bad off as a society. We just know stuff we didn't use to know.  It's disgusting but it's totally media driven and not as bad as you think.

My whole point is that it is not a matter for government except when it comes to laws and the military.

The bathroom bill is an example.  Most people hate that kind of thing and that's where we need to put our focus and not in being the party of bedroom looking.

Who has even suggested "bedroom looking"?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I just feel compelled to point out the absolute insanity of the transgender policy Trump is rightfully trashing.  Under that policy, we take a perfectly healthy, physically fit young male soldier, then subsidize/support him while he takes actions to 1) suppress his production of muscle-building and sustaining testosterone, 2) add estrogen to his system, and 3) undergo surgery that will incapacitate him for an extended period of time, while leaving him physically weaker and with an increased likelihood of surgical complications.  We are deliberately creating weaker, less capable soldiers.  It is like paying guys to shoot themselves in the foot so they can't fight.

It's absolutely disgraceful that a Republican Congress wouldn't take steps to stop this insanity under Obama.

[Jazzhead]

We disagree strongly on the abortion issue.  He cannot bring himself to be totally pro-life and that hurts me.

Emjay, I appreciate the dialogue we've had on the abortion issue.   Despite our differences, we want the same thing - to create the conditions for there to be as few abortions as possible.   

[Jazzhead]

I count plenty of gay folks as family, friends and colleagues.   I have never, to my knowledge, encountered a transgendered person.   I don't understand the phenomenon,  and struggle to see the difference between a transgender and a cross-dresser.

My only position regarding the thread subject is that it should be up to the military to set such policies as it believes will best fulfill its mission - the finest, most disciplined, honorable and effective instrument of death and destruction in the history of mankind.   Because if our military lives up to that,  we will be able to keep the peace.   For you, for me, and for cross-dressers everywhere.   

 

[libertybele]

Look, I'm as stodgy and outdated as the next guy but I think you exaggerate the prevalence of sexual deviancies and other examples of lack of morality.

Yes, it makes me cringe to read about some of the things that go on.  You would not believe how utterly conservative I've been in my whole lifestyle.

I don't like it .... but but but ... It's fueled by the Internet.  Advertisers just love to tease us with stories about this or that horrible disgusting thing so we will click on the story and go, OMG, we're going to hell in a handbasket.

We are not that bad off as a society. We just know stuff we didn't use to know.  It's disgusting but it's totally media driven and not as bad as you think.

My whole point is that it is not a matter for government except when it comes to laws and the military.

The bathroom bill is an example.  Most people hate that kind of thing and that's where we need to put our focus and not in being the party of bedroom looking.

We as a society have been in a mode of moral decline for decades. Take a look at the violence and cursing allowed to be aired on television; years ago that same violence and cursing would make one shutter in disgust. We've gone from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance being said every day in our schools to it not being allowed in some districts, depending on political correctness and certainly we can't use the word "GOD". We have generations who have become dependent on welfare and don't seem to have the ability to care for themselves. Our school systems have taken out many of the facts of American history and culture in text books and instead focus on how American influence has harmed others. Recently a football coach was punished for taking a few moments to kneel and pray. I'm sorry, but when courts start to rule the we cannot practice the fundamentals upon which this country was founded we are in serious trouble.  We now allow gay marriages, transgender bathrooms, and Islamic indoctrination in our schools.  Opioid addiction is at an all time high and crimes against humanity continue to rise.  I'm sorry, I see our society as out of control and yes we are going to hell in a handbasket. I shutter to think what this country will be like in 10-20 years unless we head this country in a positive direction. As for our government involvement -- it is at the very core of the decay in our society all for the sake of being politically correct in order to keep votes.

[txradioguy]

My only position regarding the thread subject is that it should be up to the military to set such policies as it believes will best fulfill its mission - the finest, most disciplined, honorable and effective instrument of death and destruction in the history of mankind.   Because if our military lives up to that,  we will be able to keep the peace.   For you, for me, and for cross-dressers everywhere.   

Highly agree with the bolded.

Hence the reason for putting the ban back in place.  You lose good order and discipline...valuable training time...unit cohesion not to mention money that could be used for supplies new tech and replacement gear/parts when you start catering to the whims of a handful of soldiers that feel more comfortable in a dress than in pants and having to shell out money to surgically change what their genetic make up says they are.

We are designed to blow sh*t up and occupy huge tracts of land...not be an ant farm for every social experiment that comes along.

[libertybele]

I just feel compelled to point out the absolute insanity of the transgender policy Trump is rightfully trashing.  Under that policy, we take a perfectly healthy, physically fit young male soldier, then subsidize/support him while he takes actions to 1) suppress his production of muscle-building and sustaining testosterone, 2) add estrogen to his system, and 3) undergo surgery that will incapacitate him for an extended period of time, while leaving him physically weaker and with an increased likelihood of surgical complications.  We are deliberately creating weaker, less capable soldiers.  It is like paying guys to shoot themselves in the foot so they can't fight.

It's absolutely disgraceful that a Republican Congress wouldn't take steps to stop this insanity under Obama.

Agreed. Yet the failures of this Republican Congress continues along with its failed leadership.

[Bigun]

I just feel compelled to point out the absolute insanity of the transgender policy Trump is rightfully trashing.  Under that policy, we take a perfectly healthy, physically fit young male soldier, then subsidize/support him while he takes actions to 1) suppress his production of muscle-building and sustaining testosterone, 2) add estrogen to his system, and 3) undergo surgery that will incapacitate him for an extended period of time, while leaving him physically weaker and with an increased likelihood of surgical complications.  We are deliberately creating weaker, less capable soldiers.  It is like paying guys to shoot themselves in the foot so they can't fight.

It's absolutely disgraceful that a Republican Congress wouldn't take steps to stop this insanity under Obama.

I agree with every thing you said here.  I have come to believe that in the real world there is very little difference between the R's and the D's  currently populating Congress today.

[edpc]

We as a society have been in a mode of moral decline for decades.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan's essay on it.....

http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/formans/DefiningDeviancy.htm

[Wingnut]

I just feel compelled to point out the absolute insanity of the transgender policy Trump is rightfully trashing.  Under that policy, we take a perfectly healthy, physically fit young male soldier, then subsidize/support him while he takes actions to 1) suppress his production of muscle-building and sustaining testosterone, 2) add estrogen to his system, and 3) undergo surgery that will incapacitate him for an extended period of time, while leaving him physically weaker and with an increased likelihood of surgical complications.  We are deliberately creating weaker, less capable soldiers.  It is like paying guys to shoot themselves in the foot so they can't fight.

It's absolutely disgraceful that a Republican Congress wouldn't take steps to stop this insanity under Obama.

Man that was beautiful.  Spot freaking on.

[txradioguy]

I just feel compelled to point out the absolute insanity of the transgender policy Trump is rightfully trashing.  Under that policy, we take a perfectly healthy, physically fit young male soldier, then subsidize/support him while he takes actions to 1) suppress his production of muscle-building and sustaining testosterone, 2) add estrogen to his system, and 3) undergo surgery that will incapacitate him for an extended period of time, while leaving him physically weaker and with an increased likelihood of surgical complications.  We are deliberately creating weaker, less capable soldiers.  It is like paying guys to shoot themselves in the foot so they can't fight.

It's absolutely disgraceful that a Republican Congress wouldn't take steps to stop this insanity under Obama.

[Smokin Joe]

I just feel compelled to point out the absolute insanity of the transgender policy Trump is rightfully trashing.  Under that policy, we take a perfectly healthy, physically fit young male soldier, then subsidize/support him while he takes actions to 1) suppress his production of muscle-building and sustaining testosterone, 2) add estrogen to his system, and 3) undergo surgery that will incapacitate him for an extended period of time, while leaving him physically weaker and with an increased likelihood of surgical complications.  We are deliberately creating weaker, less capable soldiers.  It is like paying guys to shoot themselves in the foot so they can't fight.

It's absolutely disgraceful that a Republican Congress wouldn't take steps to stop this insanity under Obama.

Well said!

[Bigun]

So called "Transgendered" people are mentally ill and have no business being anywhere near our military period!

The FACT is that there is no such thing as a "transgendered" person and never will be!  DNA doesn't lie!

[Maj. Bill Martin]

My only position regarding the thread subject is that it should be up to the military to set such policies as it believes will best fulfill its mission - the finest, most disciplined, honorable and effective instrument of death and destruction in the history of mankind.   

Military leadership changes all the time, and varies between the services.  So what happens if one CJCS of Staff supports letting troops transition, and the next doesn't?  That's not the kind of policy that should vacillate depending upon which generals are in charge.

@Jazzhead

My view is that the ban on transgender troops has been in effect for a very long time, and if that policy is to change, it should be done by Act of Congress.

[Emjay]

Emjay, I appreciate the dialogue we've had on the abortion issue.   Despite our differences, we want the same thing - to create the conditions for there to be as few abortions as possible.

Me, too, Jazzhead.  We agree on that, we just have some details to work out !!!

[Emjay]

We as a society have been in a mode of moral decline for decades. Take a look at the violence and cursing allowed to be aired on television; years ago that same violence and cursing would make one shutter in disgust. We've gone from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance being said every day in our schools to it not being allowed in some districts, depending on political correctness and certainly we can't use the word "GOD". We have generations who have become dependent on welfare and don't seem to have the ability to care for themselves. Our school systems have taken out many of the facts of American history and culture in text books and instead focus on how American influence has harmed others. Recently a football coach was punished for taking a few moments to kneel and pray. I'm sorry, but when courts start to rule the we cannot practice the fundamentals upon which this country was founded we are in serious trouble.  We now allow gay marriages, transgender bathrooms, and Islamic indoctrination in our schools.  Opioid addiction is at an all time high and crimes against humanity continue to rise.  I'm sorry, I see our society as out of control and yes we are going to hell in a handbasket. I shutter to think what this country will be like in 10-20 years unless we head this country in a positive direction. As for our government involvement -- it is at the very core of the decay in our society all for the sake of being politically correct in order to keep votes.

Well said, @libertybele  and all the specific things you reported are true. 

However, gay marriages are a fraction of a fraction and will be even less after the novelty wears off.

Violence and cursing (and worse) are permitted on TV and we all remember when Desi and Lucy couldn't share a bed and Rhett Butler saying "damn" was an event.

Transgender bathrooms will be done away with soon ... that was a liberal thing; nobody likes it.

Tolerating Islamics is wrong.  There are fewer peaceful islamics than there are gay marriages.  I think Trump is trying in that department but we have those pesky judges that keep overturning his travel bans.

Opiod addiction is far more serious problem.  I have the unpopular idea that drugs should be made legal so that they can be monitored and taxed.  However, the most prevalent drugs now are already legal.  One of Trump's appointees cracked down recently on the prescribers of legal drugs and it was a good start.

I don't know the exact crime statistics now compared to say ten or twenty years ago but I suspect it is mostly confined to inner cities run by democrats under conditions where unemployment is the norm and gangs are prevalent.

So, I'm not sure what the solution is, exactly.  But, nobody is. 

My problem with the people who have latched on to the hell in a handbasket theory is ... no solutions.  And why a handbasket anyway, are there no planes or trains.

Also, I kinda live in a world populated by what I would call normal people.  People who mostly stay married, go to church or at least believe in God, try to raise good kids.  have jobs, are nice to their neighbors.  Even in the cyber world, this is true as evidenced on my Facebook page.

So, I will help in any way I can.  As always I will start with myself.  I'm a pretty stuffy, stick in the mud gal.