Author Topic: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory  (Read 102640 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #825 on: August 29, 2017, 12:20:31 am »
Sorry, @libertybele and @Smokin Joe

I agree with both of you on a lot of things, but not this.

Information was provided and people made their choice, as it should be.
We are conservatives, right?
We embrace the ability of people to have the freedom to make their own decisions, without Government interference, even if that means they have the right to choose poorly.
Private property rights and individual rights are still a tenet of what makes us unique as a nation.
I wasn't saying whether the Mayor should have ordered people out or not. People do ignore mandatory evac orders, too.

The implications of predicting natural events are much the same for any urban area or event, be that a storm, an earthquake, or a volcanic eruption. Predict it, and there will be a certain number of people who get killed in the panic to evacuate, ordered or otherwise. Businesses will shut down, people leave, and those businesses will be even more susceptible to looters than they would be otherwise, ditto upscale (or for that matter, ANY) homes.
If you are right, and the prediction comes to pass, there will be devastation.
If you are wrong, and it doesn't, the death and destruction will be laid at your doorstep, along with any loss of revenue from the interruption in business.

It's why geologists don't usually predict volcanic eruptions or earthquakes, except in a general way.  And why mayors might be slow to call for evacuation. The only way you are a 'good guy' is if the worst case comes to pass and you predict it or nothing happens and you didn't call for evacuation. Any other combination of events and you are the lame duck.

People are allegedly educated, so provide the information, even assign likelyhood of adverse events, and let them act accordingly. Short of a volunteer brown water navy, picking people off of rooftops by helo gets expensive, as does providing shelter for the masses. Far cheaper to let them haul themselves and their stuff out of harm's way.

People have a right to be stupid, but that doesn't mean we have to subsidize it. If an area is extremely high risk, maybe the owner won't be able to get insurance. It's up to them to rebuild on their dime or sell the land for a park after getting paid for the previous dwelling by the insurance company that will no longer underwrite it.

You want that beach house on the cape, don't come crying to me when the hurricane hits to pay to rebuild it.  Especially at six figures or more. So that's where I am coming from. People are ultimately responsible for their own fate.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #826 on: August 29, 2017, 12:22:31 am »
Lets sing off key together!    :beer:  Know any sea shanties?   **nononono*
Who's that knocking at my door?
Who's that knocking at my door?
Who's that knocking at my door?
Asked the fair young maiden....

Open the door you rotten...

Oops. Family channel. Barnacle Bill will just have to wait.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #827 on: August 29, 2017, 12:28:36 am »
I wasn't saying whether the Mayor should have ordered people out or not. People do ignore mandatory evac orders, too.

The implications of predicting natural events are much the same for any urban area or event, be that a storm, an earthquake, or a volcanic eruption. Predict it, and there will be a certain number of people who get killed in the panic to evacuate, ordered or otherwise. Businesses will shut down, people leave, and those businesses will be even more susceptible to looters than they would be otherwise, ditto upscale (or for that matter, ANY) homes.
If you are right, and the prediction comes to pass, there will be devastation.
If you are wrong, and it doesn't, the death and destruction will be laid at your doorstep, along with any loss of revenue from the interruption in business.

It's why geologists don't usually predict volcanic eruptions or earthquakes, except in a general way.  And why mayors might be slow to call for evacuation. The only way you are a 'good guy' is if the worst case comes to pass and you predict it or nothing happens and you didn't call for evacuation. Any other combination of events and you are the lame duck.

People are allegedly educated, so provide the information, even assign likelyhood of adverse events, and let them act accordingly. Short of a volunteer brown water navy, picking people off of rooftops by helo gets expensive, as does providing shelter for the masses. Far cheaper to let them haul themselves and their stuff out of harm's way.

People have a right to be stupid, but that doesn't mean we have to subsidize it. If an area is extremely high risk, maybe the owner won't be able to get insurance. It's up to them to rebuild on their dime or sell the land for a park after getting paid for the previous dwelling by the insurance company that will no longer underwrite it.

You want that beach house on the cape, don't come crying to me when the hurricane hits to pay to rebuild it.  Especially at six figures or more. So that's where I am coming from. People are ultimately responsible for their own fate.

@Smokin Joe

Fair enough.
I don't disagree with this at all.

Offline Gefn

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #828 on: August 29, 2017, 01:41:46 am »
I just got a text from my second cousin in Dallas

They are ok. A tree came down, missed their house by inches but they are fine..

She's going a bit nuts with two children under three at the moment inside.  I told her I'd mail some coloring books and games via Amazon. I hope that helps. She has a three year old boy and a six month old girl. :)
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Offline Victoria33

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #829 on: August 29, 2017, 02:11:34 am »
@CatherineofAragon
@roamer_1
@INVAR
@txradioguy
@Freya

About Governor Abbott and the mayor of Houston and the county judge of Harris County.

Abbott made it clear today that evacuation orders are not determined by him.  It is the responsibility of the Houston mayor and county judge regarding evacuation.  Both the county judge and mayor agreed.  That is the beginning and ending of it.  If the citizens of Houston don't want the mayor, they can vote for someone else next time.  If they don't want the county judge, they can vote for someone else next time.

I lived a few blocks from Hwy. 45 in Conroe.  Days before Rita Hurricane, the evacuation order was made that people had to leave Galveston and Houston.  I saw cars stopped on 45 all the way through Conroe.  Whoever was in charge, had put barriers at every exit.  No car was allowed to exit in Conroe - they were forced to stay on that highway  They were not moving, period.  Cars ran out of gas and littered the highway.  They could be dying from no water but they could not get off that highway due to the barriers.

After people died on the highway, the next hurricane was Ike.  No demand was made to evacuate due to how bad the Rita evacuation was.

Changes were made by Gov. Perry after Rita.  Refueling trucks were stationed on the exit highways to give free gas to anyone who ran out of gas.  Contra flow lanes were designated if evacuation had to happen.

With this present hurricane that blew up within one/two days, no forced evacuation could happen.  Millions cannot get out in one day.  Had there been more days of notice, the more vulnerable could have been taken out first in buses, then the next group could go out and so on, supported by the gasoline trucks.

The mayor of Houston doesn't seem to be very bright, but with only really just one day to evacuate people, it was not going to happen if he was the brightest tack in the box.

All manner of emergencies and how to deal with them is in my freaking book.  Be sure you get one before North Korea sends a nuke into our atomosphere and explodes it, creating an NEMP (Nuclear Electromagnetic Pulse).  Now, I have to get back to writing the Index at the back of the freaking book.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 02:16:10 am by Victoria33 »

Offline austingirl

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #830 on: August 29, 2017, 02:31:44 am »
Two more mandatory evacuations announced due to levee issues.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline AllThatJazzZ

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #831 on: August 29, 2017, 02:34:42 am »
@CatherineofAragon
@roamer_1
@INVAR
@txradioguy
@Freya

About Governor Abbott and the mayor of Houston and the county judge of Harris County.

Abbott made it clear today that evacuation orders are not determined by him.  It is the responsibility of the Houston mayor and county judge regarding evacuation.  Both the county judge and mayor agreed.  That is the beginning and ending of it.  If the citizens of Houston don't want the mayor, they can vote for someone else next time.  If they don't want the county judge, they can vote for someone else next time.

I lived a few blocks from Hwy. 45 in Conroe.  Days before Rita Hurricane, the evacuation order was made that people had to leave Galveston and Houston.  I saw cars stopped on 45 all the way through Conroe.  Whoever was in charge, had put barriers at every exit.  No car was allowed to exit in Conroe - they were forced to stay on that highway  They were not moving, period.  Cars ran out of gas and littered the highway.  They could be dying from no water but they could not get off that highway due to the barriers.

After people died on the highway, the next hurricane was Ike.  No demand was made to evacuate due to how bad the Rita evacuation was.

Changes were made by Gov. Perry after Rita.  Refueling trucks were stationed on the exit highways to give free gas to anyone who ran out of gas.  Contra flow lanes were designated if evacuation had to happen.

With this present hurricane that blew up within one/two days, no forced evacuation could happen.  Millions cannot get out in one day.  Had there been more days of notice, the more vulnerable could have been taken out first in buses, then the next group could go out and so on, supported by the gasoline trucks.

The mayor of Houston doesn't seem to be very bright, but with only really just one day to evacuate people, it was not going to happen if he was the brightest tack in the box.

All manner of emergencies and how to deal with them is in my freaking book.  Be sure you get one before North Korea sends a nuke into our atomosphere and explodes it, creating an NEMP (Nuclear Electromagnetic Pulse).  Now, I have to get back to writing the Index at the back of the freaking book.

Applause! Applause! Applause! Applause! Applause!


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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #832 on: August 29, 2017, 02:35:17 am »
Two more mandatory evacuations announced due to levee issues.

Just saw that Ft Bend Co judge on Channel 2

Offline austingirl

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #833 on: August 29, 2017, 02:42:46 am »
Fox 26 live on Facebook showing water rescues by citizen/heroes near Tidwell. Frightening enough during the day- but at night-wow. Rain pouring down still.
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Offline DB

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #834 on: August 29, 2017, 02:59:46 am »
Applause! Applause! Applause! Applause! Applause!

They must know where the lowest areas are and just ask those to evacuate, not the entire city. You would also think cities like this would have a massive fleet of shallow water boats ready to go.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #835 on: August 29, 2017, 03:11:35 am »
They must know where the lowest areas are and just ask those to evacuate, not the entire city. You would also think cities like this would have a massive fleet of shallow water boats ready to go.


Just say no to big government.

You may feel free to purchase and donate a massive fleet of shallow water boats, if you like.

Should California be mandated to install fire sprinklers, in all the forest, to keep the dangers from forest fires down?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:11:58 am by GrouchoTex »

Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #836 on: August 29, 2017, 03:21:39 am »
Well they say everything is bigger in Texas, unfortunately that got applied to this damn storm. Continued prayers for all those affected, Man and Beast.

Now that something we havn't heard much about "Beast". The numbets of pets and livestock that must have been affected by this must be huge.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #837 on: August 29, 2017, 03:27:31 am »
They must know where the lowest areas are and just ask those to evacuate, not the entire city. You would also think cities like this would have a massive fleet of shallow water boats ready to go.

 Probably unnecessary... Unlike back east, out west, every redneck boy for miles around has a shallow water boat (read bass boat, duck boat), not to mention small craft from the beaches...
All you'd have to do is send out a call, and promise beer, pulled pork sammiches, and a place to bunk up at the end of the day, and they'll all come a'runnin... Or Texas ain't as much like the Rockies as I think it is (which can't be true)

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #838 on: August 29, 2017, 03:29:02 am »
Now that something we havn't heard much about "Beast". The numbets of pets and livestock that must have been affected by this must be huge.

A lesson learned from Katrina.

Many people refused to evacuate or go to shelters, because they wouldn't take pets.
The message was out that the shelters here would let you bring your pets, preferably in carriers.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #839 on: August 29, 2017, 03:33:55 am »
Probably unnecessary... Unlike back east, out west, every redneck boy for miles around has a shallow water boat (read bass boat, duck boat), not to mention small craft from the beaches...
All you'd have to do is send out a call, and promise beer, pulled pork sammiches, and a place to bunk up at the end of the day, and they'll all come a'runnin... Or Texas ain't as much like the Rockies as I think it is (which can't be true)

@roamer_1

It is pretty much the truth here. Most of the rescues you are seeing on TV are done by other residents, and people with boats coming in from out of the area with boats.

Lots of Houston area residents helped Louisiana out when they were flooded.
Several people are here from Louisiana now, returning the favor.

FYI, we prefer smoked Beef Brisket over pulled pork any day, and every Texan knows this.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:34:57 am by GrouchoTex »

Offline DB

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #840 on: August 29, 2017, 03:55:21 am »

Just say no to big government.

You may feel free to purchase and donate a massive fleet of shallow water boats, if you like.

Should California be mandated to install fire sprinklers, in all the forest, to keep the dangers from forest fires down?

So where did I say anything about mandates?

And why is it you have fire stations and firefighting equipment if you want to say no to "big government" on basic equipment to address the reoccurring threats you have?

You have resources on hand for the sort of natural threats your area faces at your own areas expense. No less, no more.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #841 on: August 29, 2017, 04:06:50 am »
So where did I say anything about mandates?

And why is it you have fire stations and firefighting equipment if you want to say no to "big government" on basic equipment to address the reoccurring threats you have?

You have resources on hand for the sort of natural threats your area faces at your own areas expense. No less, no more.

You said the city should have a massive fleet of shallow boats.
What does that suggest?
How massive?
At whose expense?
Tax, mandate, or fine people who don't own boats in flood prone areas?
= big government.

I get it.
Everyone is reacting to the horror they are seeing, and basically saying " someone should do something ".
It is understandable.
This is unprecedented.
We can all 2nd guess this, but this isn't normal, by any stretch of the imagination.
The loss of life has been remarkably low, considering.
Something is going right in all of this.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #842 on: August 29, 2017, 04:14:19 am »
My two cents:

First of all, this isn't something that came out of nowhere.  Last Wednesday when Harvey was still a tropical depression, reports were warning of up to 30 inches of rain for the Texas coast including Houston.  So for those who say there was no time because Harvey became a Cat 3 hurricane in less than 30 hrs, this is a non-issue.   It was never hurricane winds that threatened Houston.  It was always the rain.



By Friday, the warning had surpassed 40 in.  Every indication showed that the storm would stall and dump "biblical" amounts of rain.


Now for the politics of it.  It was the mayor's office that chose to politicized the non-evacuation.  After the Governor issued his Friday statement, “You don’t want to put yourself in a situation where you could be subject to a search and rescue.", the director of Harris County Emergency Services mocked the Governor's advice by tweeting in all-caps that "LOCAL LEADERS KNOW BEST".

Bottom line, if the weather people are telling you for three days that the flood of a century is coming, and you happen to live in low elevation areas, then you have no business listening to any official telling you to SIP in an area that is going to be under water soon.

Of course none of this takes away from the seriousness of this tragedy.  But when the mayor's office decides to use this event to score some political points against the governor, then they deserve being called out on it.
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Online GtHawk

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #843 on: August 29, 2017, 04:15:02 am »
Now that something we havn't heard much about "Beast". The numbets of pets and livestock that must have been affected by this must be huge.
Pets, livestock and all the earthbound creatures of the wild that couldn't possibly escape what was happening, nature will have a huge vacum to fill once the waters recede.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 04:56:29 am by GtHawk »

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #844 on: August 29, 2017, 04:28:53 am »
I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but let me try and explain this the best I know how.

The city limits of Houston is large than The city limits of Detroit,Chicago, Baltimore, and Philadelphia combined

The places affected are in an area 3 times that.

People aren't entirely stupid here. Whenever you move into a new area around here, you find out how often it floods. Floods are a fact of life here. So, if you find out that the area you moving into hasn't flooded. Or that it used to before certain improvements, etc., you have a choice to make.

What has happened is, places that haven't flooded before, flooded now. How do you prepare for that.

Some poeple just won't leave, no matter what.

Who to blame? I don't know. Meteorologists? God? Government? Mother nature? Seems like a futile exercise. As long as you have hurricanes, you have unpredictability.

Finally, if I seem to be living up to my name, I apologize.
Groucho Marx was one of my heroes, due to his sarcastic humor. I have been awake quite a bit for the last 4 days, and old Groucho has become just Grouch, so it seems.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #845 on: August 29, 2017, 04:51:42 am »

It is pretty much the truth here. Most of the rescues you are seeing on TV are done by other residents, and people with boats coming in from out of the area with boats.

@GrouchoTex
I figured so... Knew it to be so... and I only called y'all on the carpet as a matter of form. Western / Southern folks are much the same everywhere, and Texas is both... Even if you do bend your hats funny ;)

Quote
FYI, we prefer smoked Beef Brisket over pulled pork any day, and every Texan knows this.

LOL! I ain't had pig in my mouth since my birthday 5 years ago.
Round here, if bad stuff happens, emergency and rescue is normally based out of the fairgrounds, and of course, the facilities are geared for fairgrounds fare, so that's what you get. 'Pulled Pork Sammiches' would merely be symbolic of that fare, though largely present therein.

I tend toward beef, elk, and venison...

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #846 on: August 29, 2017, 05:01:51 am »
@GrouchoTex
I figured so... Knew it to be so... and I only called y'all on the carpet as a matter of form. Western / Southern folks are much the same everywhere, and Texas is both... Even if you do bend your hats funny ;)

LOL! I ain't had pig in my mouth since my birthday 5 years ago.
Round here, if bad stuff happens, emergency and rescue is normally based out of the fairgrounds, and of course, the facilities are geared for fairgrounds fare, so that's what you get. 'Pulled Pork Sammiches' would merely be symbolic of that fare, though largely present therein.

I tend toward beef, elk, and venison...

@roamer_1

LOL. Don't get me wrong, Smoked pulled pork and ribs are good, I'll eat'em, but I do prefer Brisket.
Yes,Texas is a unique blend of west and south, with German,Cajun, and Mexican influences thrown in, for good measure.
As for hats, I'll quote Lyle Lovett.

It never complains
It never cries
It looks so good
And it fits just right
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:09:12 am by GrouchoTex »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #847 on: August 29, 2017, 05:20:29 am »
As for hats, I'll quote Lyle Lovett.

It never complains
It never cries
It looks so good
And it fits just right

@GrouchoTex
That's it... I think it's the wind down there... That'd be why all y'all taco the sides up, or do that Oklahoma curl...

Up here a Gus style hat (also called a Montana  crease), and the brim is laid wide and bent front and back... Keeps the snow off of ya. Wind ain't as much a thing.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:22:00 am by roamer_1 »

Offline DB

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #848 on: August 29, 2017, 05:24:39 am »
You said the city should have a massive fleet of shallow boats.
What does that suggest?
How massive?
At whose expense?
Tax, mandate, or fine people who don't own boats in flood prone areas?
= big government.

I get it.
Everyone is reacting to the horror they are seeing, and basically saying " someone should do something ".
It is understandable.
This is unprecedented.
We can all 2nd guess this, but this isn't normal, by any stretch of the imagination.
The loss of life has been remarkably low, considering.
Something is going right in all of this.

Shallow water flat bottom boats are cheap and last a long time in storage. Not exactly a large expense for something that seems to happen often enough to justify them. Who should pay for it, the people who live there. People who live in snow country pay for snow equipment. People who live in fire country pay for forest fire equipment including aircraft that fight fire. It comes with where you choose to live. It is incumbent on the community to prepare for what nature dishes out in a foreseeable way in their area - and not the rest of the country. And no, I don't want to mandate any of this. Some things are just common sense or suffer the consequences. Their choice.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hurricane Harvey Public Advisory
« Reply #849 on: August 29, 2017, 05:43:21 am »
@GrouchoTex
That's it... I think it's the wind down there... That'd be why all y'all taco the sides up, or do that Oklahoma curl...

Up here a Gus style hat (also called a Montana  crease), and the brim is laid wide and bent front and back... Keeps the snow off of ya. Wind ain't as much a thing.

Gotta admit, I never got that taco sides thing, but I see more and more of'em all the time.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:48:03 am by GrouchoTex »