Author Topic: Snark  (Read 21045 times)

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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 08:40:31 am »
The victimhood aspect of Trump supporters was already discussed ad nauseum on a recent thread analyzing the ability of Trump devotees to twist themselves into knots excusing and justifying every faux pas and stupid thing Trump tweets and does.

There was no abandonment.  I never supported him to begin with.   He has not won me over to support him. Plus, those few moments I have given him a thumbs up - his rabid supporters were quick to chide and admonish against thumbs thumbs-up - reminding me they do not want any "fair weather friends" or will permit anyone to ride on Trump's coattails of success.

So there is no point even crediting Trump when he serves the Conservative agenda.  He and his supporters will end up insulting us anyway.

Will never happen within the Republican party.  It is as corrupt and self-serving for the Collectivist cause as the Democrat Party is.  If Conservatism is to survive, it must separate and be independent of the corruption at Mordor on the Potomac.

You keep quoting that as if it is biblical.  It's not.  It's the folly of men who preach and entice the abandonment of Principles in order to serve the expedient.  A disaster for Liberty.

You can dress up Liberalism under a big, fat shiny 'R' next to the name and you will only succeed in beguiling those whose way of life is not centered on the principles of Conservatism.   Liberalism demands we abandon those principles for the sake of the 'good'.  That is no longer a bridge of commonality we will stand upon with you.  Hell, we cannot even agree among ourselves what the definition of liberty is - so standing on a common foundation is literally herding cats in this day and time.

We are a people unmoored from our foundations and the solution to fixing it is not to embrace liberalism to grow the share of "R"s in Government as salvation.

Your herd of liberals pretending to be Conservatives can march you right off the cliff while you sing your anthem of Good is better than Perfect.  I will not be joining you. 

Clever, but stupid.  All your party has done is embrace Leftism, sans the militant Marxist wing of it.   All you are doing is demanding Conservatives abandon principles to support Liberalism and Collectivism so your Party can claim a 'win'.

Acquiescing to Liberalism and Collectivism with a big fat R does nothing to advance Conservatism.  All it does is make you a Liberal with an 'R' after your name.

And that is EXACTLY what the Republican party is today.  A Liberal party - rather than the Marxist one.  As I've said, one day soon you will saddle yourselves with a choice between a Lenin and a Stalin, making the same arguments why Conservatives must support Lenin, because the perfect is the enemy of good.

Well Invar, I understand what you are expressing and absolutely disagree with most of your conclusions. Respectfully, I think that your hurt feelings have clouded many of your perceptions with over-generalities and led to (forgive me) outright incorrect conclusions.

The level of your conviction very clearly tells me that you are not ready to consider any alternative views. That is unfortunate, not so much for you (indeed, you seem very satisfied with yourself) as for the nation and the Republican party which you believe is not only utterly and completely useless, but worse, complicit in every significant regard with the worst attributes of the far left.

Doctrinaire fanaticism has consumed you and you are committed to maintaining it because it feels so good to you. Beware self-righteousness. I imagine that somewhere deep down inside your heart of hearts, you are not nearly as confident in everything you declare as you represent in your post(s).

If I were you, I would listent to that doubt and consider that you may be, at least in some regards, incorrect in some of your assumptions and that some of these absolute declarations may be a little harsh and off the mark. A thirst for towering certainty, bold separations into absolute good and absolute bad, without nuance or doubt of the slightest shade pervades this post.

You are clearly a somatotonic personality - you are like a gun that wants to be aimed at something and triggered. Pondering and long consideration of alternative points of view does not come easily to you. I am a little that way myself, so I understand. Such people are often so passionate that we do not wait for full understanding before marshalling our forces for another charge- which though personally satisfying our need for decisive, immediate action, proves disastrous in a strategic sense because it is wholly detached from any cooperative, coordinated battle plan (sic). 

You mention Tolkien's Mordor. I wonder if you know that it was largely through exploiting the passions and proclivities of men such as us (passionate, nobel but proud, overly-angry men), that the Great Numenor was destroyed by Melkor/Sauron in Tolkien's Silmarillion.. Many fans of Tolkien are unaware that he considered the Silmarillion to be his greater work, and that the Lord of the Rings was more of an after-thought which grew out of that other, more-profound mythos.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 08:54:09 am by LateForLunch »
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Snark
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 12:27:44 pm »
In the interests of clarity...

In my view although Trump was elected to the office, he is, for the reasons enumerated in my original past, unfit to hold the office.

Here are just a few of my thoughts on your interest in "clarity" @montanajoe

Saying the President is “unfit for office” is a serious and sweeping judgment and IMO you have not justified it.

You use as an example his not serving in Vietnam yet fail to mention the respect for and dedication to the US Military he exhibits as CIC.  Donald Trump is the President who walks the walk; not merely talks the talk; when it comes to caring for our Veterans.  He is the one who has lifted stifling ROE to allow the military in theater to win wars.  He is the President who is implementing the largest increase in military spending since Ronald Reagan to give our soldiers every tool possible to win in the 21st Century.  All of this greatly matters to our military leadership and troops.

Does any of this matter to you, at all?

And just what mockery of our values has the President shown?  He is the one who is finally addressing the stifling Johnson Amendment, is working to drag Congress across the finish line to once and for all defund PP and reminds Americans at every turn: “We are one people, with one destiny.  We all bleed the same blood.  We all salute the same great American flag.  And we all are made by the same God.”

Is any of this offensive to you?   

If you disagree with Donald Trump’s past lifestyle, let’s have a conversation about that.  I suspect you know only what you want to know about Donald Trump’s past.  The fullness of his life in the private sector may surprise you.  And you may also be surprised by the leaders you would never deem to be “unfit” who followed similar paths to political power.

Quote
The idea that he is at the vanguard of some mythical movement fighting for the destiny of the nation would be laughable if it were not so sad.

This is not a “mythical” movement.  What is "sad" is the resistance to seeing and understanding that this movement is not only very real, but actually encompasses the scope and depth of many conservative principles.

Quote
The problems of this nation are not going to be solved by any political leader, they will be solved/or not, in the hearts and minds of of the average citizen being persuaded by his neighbor that the traditional Conservative values of God, Family and Country are as true today as they where when this great nation was founded.


The supporters of Donald Trump did not elect him to be a miracle worker.  We elected him because he is “our voice”.   He is the one who fights to slay political correctness, the antithesis to liberty; who understands that children must be safe in their neighborhoods and fights for this safety while being condemned by members of his own political party; who knows first hand the value of work and its central role in personal security and family harmony.   

As part of his inaugural address, the President put the world on notice that: "January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."

Did you miss that part, Montanajoe?

Over and over again the President has reminded the American people to  ”Think of the marvels we can achieve if we simply set free the dreams of our people.  Cures to the illnesses that have always plagued us are not too much to hope.  American footprints on distant worlds are not too big a dream.  Millions lifted from welfare to work is not too much to expect.  And streets where mothers are safe from fear, schools where children learn in peace, and jobs where Americans prosper and grow are not too much to ask.” 

Do you have a problem with any of this?

Quote
An American president in order to succeed must first and foremost be a moral compass who inspires confidence across all of society and is able to unite the nation in shared common goals. Trump has repeatedly demonstrated he is utterly incapable of exerting any type of moral leadership. In fact, he has shown an astonishingly tin ear the concerns of segments of the nation that are not in his dwindling "base."

It is very clear from speech after speech and in action after action that the President's moral compass is pointed true north and where his leadership is guiding us.  You’ve apparently missed this, but his vision and his goals most assuredly “inspire confidence and unite in shared common goals”.  He has repeated his message over and over and over again; but perhaps was never more clear on his vision than when he said this:   

“From now on, America will be empowered by our aspirations, not burdened by our fears; inspired by the future, not bound by the failures of the past; and guided by our vision, not blinded by our doubts. 

I am asking all citizens to embrace this renewal of the American spirit.  I am asking all members of Congress to join me in dreaming big, and bold, and daring things for our country.  I am asking everyone watching tonight to seize this moment.  Believe in yourselves, believe in your future, and believe, once more, in America.”


Have you actually listened to the man, Mountanajoe?  Not the “reporting” about what he’s said, not the spin on what he has said or the comments posted on this forum---but heard his actual words, witnessed his passions, his convictions?  Have you any understanding of why it is thousands and thousands of people jump to their feet yelling “USA! USA!”  during his rallies? 

You may be confusing style with substance so perhaps we should have a separate conversation about this, too.  Based on the entirety of your thesis, the man is deeply misunderstood.

Quote
As to the title -Snark.

It is vaguely directed at the "warriors" whose feelings are hurt when they perceive their 'orange god' has been slighted on a thread and their reaction is to "stir the pot" by attacking the poster for pages and pages instead of the substance of the comment. In my neck of the woods  is the classic behavior of the professional victim.... :shrug:

Well, this warrior’s feelings are not “hurt” by the references to “their orange god”.  This warrior is pissed off by them, as I am by your audacity to so misjudge my reaction and present it as gospel. 

“Orange” and “god” are designed to elicit a reaction rather than advance a dialogue.  I have long recognized this is a diversionary tactic from those who have no substantive argument against the President. Not only is it cowardly, it is disrespectful to the man and the office he holds.  The use of these terms piss all over “conservative values”---and is just one more example of cognitive dissonance from the sanctimonious.

So in all candor, Montanajoe, I hope you know what I think you can do with your assessment of “classic behavior”.  Continue to use references to an “orange god” and ---you can call it “snark” --- I will continue to react with all the respect the comment deserves.   The choice is yours.




« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 01:50:43 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 01:29:24 pm »
  The choice is yours.

I sense in your post an urgency to convince, to persuade. Don't be disappointed if you fall short. See, Ben Franklin pointed out, "It is not sufficient to appeal to intellect to persuade. To persuade, once must appeal to interest".

To establish interest (motivation) one must detect what a person WANTS. In the case of many self described Never Trumpers, what they want is revealed in what they call themselves - reasons to maintain, defend and justify an a priori - i.e., Trump is not O.K. Period. End of discussion.

Any information which does not fit into that template will (we may be certain of this at least) be wholly rejected.

We may see the essence of fanaticism here - a closed circle of impressions and information. When reading posts, it may be assured that a Never Trumper is not reading to understand nor much less ponder, they are reading in order to construct a retort. Purely.

Fanatics never say
Never see
Never think and
Never do
Anything
That's really new
Burma Shave.

I believe that in time, many self-described Never Trumpers will drop all of the defiant posturing and vituperative defensiveness, allow themselves the freedom to venture beyond the bounds of some stricture of honor- to cross that terrible line of admission of error (perhaps Trump was not the anti-Christ after all) and to rejoin the greater war effort with shoulder-to-wheel, sturm to drang, nose to grindstone.

In fact, many Never Trumpers, though vocal and bitter about things at the top, are still engaged in the political process (making political donations to candidates/causes, communicating with legislators/officials, working with campaigns) but they are just divorced from anything that even approaches tangible support for DJT. It is for them, a matter of honor.

See, once a person makes extreme declarations, (such and such is this way and no other) there is in their mind a terrible (intolerable) price to pay of humiliation to admit error. So their destiny is to defend those statements - that defiant emphatic declaration to their dying day. The alternative you see is to die - or at least to suffer some measure of humiliation or "loss of face" which though insignificant to virtually all living things save themselves, drives their resistance to any wavering or recantation the way a headwind drives a sailing vessel on the high seas.  Forward! Always forward!!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 01:35:36 pm by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Snark
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 01:39:52 pm »
I find it interesting that here, perhaps especially here, those who hold the highest standards are encouraged to divest themselves of those standards and derided for maintaining them.

After all, that is, and has been the problem with the GOP. Raise the bar and be accused of being a 'perfectionist', standing in the way of the good, an evil unto yourself for wanting the very best, most Constitutional America possible: one in compliance with its own Supreme Law of the Land.

Oh, my. How unrealistic, how unpragmatic such aspirations are considered by those who would deride them. Yet, if not for an ideal, if not for goals to strive for, what is there to guide people in their lives but the rumbling in their belly, the irrational desire of shiny objects, and the occasional biological urges?

It seems to matter not whether those goals are those laid in scriptures for thousands of years, or the well thought out writings of political philosophers and statesmen of only a couple hundred years ago--among them our Founders. Whether those are laws set forth by deity or men, they are all ripe for the breaking if the perfect would just not stand in the way of the good.

Yet we daily want purity, if not in governance, in the water we drink, the food we eat, the air we breathe, even the rocks we wear for adornment, all as pure as possible, and even though we differ on the standard of what is 'pure', we want it, and often are perfectly happy to accommodate the concepts of purity others have, if not incorporate those concepts along with our own, so long as we see that end result as more pure. We place enough value on purity that we are willing to pay a premium for it, be that for what we consume, wear, or own.

Yet with governance it is not so. Even now those who claim to have the same goals, are willing to accept adulteration, and attack those with the highest standards as 'standing in the way of the good', for not being infused with a willingness, if not zeal, for abandoning principle in favor of pragmatism.

The old "Do something, even if it is wrong!' philosophy fails to take in that sometimes the best thing to do is nothing, that choosing to deliberate further is a choice, that the maid waiting for Mr Right may end up a spinster, or married to one heck of a guy.

If we are to have laws, especially codified overwhelming principles (for laws are only the attempt to set principles in practice), then we have decided those laws should bind all equally, should protect the least of us as well as those with great means, and should be immune to the trappings of power; they should apply equally to all.

What it takes is a set of standards and the cultural will to aspire to meeting those standards, on the ground on a day to day basis. In this instance, the 'excess' is in favor of what we had accepted as the best way to ensure Liberty, Life, and the secure accumulation of wealth. I would far rather deal with excesses of Liberty than the excesses of the absence thereof. 

I have noticed those on the Left whose philosophies are juxtaposed to and incompatible with ours have no such problem. They are content to accept any level of evil in the pursuit of their 'perfection', even though that 'perfection' includes everything in its philosophies from 'perfect' subjugation to 'perfect' monitoring of the subjects to "genetic purity" to 'perfect' control in their pursuit of their concept of perfection--right down to killing the 'imperfect' to remove them from the picture. All their forms of slavery are fine, except the past historical ones which are used to pursue those who resemble those who practiced it. Indeed their philosophies are anathema to the concepts of life, liberty, and property they decry for the very people they claim they liberate.

They have found their 'better way', their path to what they think will be Utopia, not by liberating others, but by liberating themselves from the very rules they would impose, but then if it were not for double standards they would have none.

The grave danger for those who consider themselves Conservative is to let those standards, that quest for the sort of purity become the enemy. "Doctrinaire fanatacism"another fine phrase for adhering to principle, and one who adheres to our principles should be our friend. Failure to adhere to our own principles, namely the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is what has created this mess. Our own government has not abided by the letter nor spirit of the law it is founded on.
What religion, what government, what entity can survive long if it will not go by its own rules nor hold true to its own law? What corporation routinely violates its own bylaws? Not even a local social club would long survive such egregious anarchy.

If you are a Conservative, you allegedly want to retain those founding principles of this nation, as laid forth in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where you see deviation from those founding principles, either you accept the deviation and wish to change the Constitution and Bill of Rights (the Democrat approach, through mainly judicial fiat), or you seek to return, in practice, to those codified principles that founded this nation.
You follow those principles or you seek to change, 'reinterpret', or get around them. 'In or out', in this instance, is not demagoguery, it is a question of following the law. There is no kinda sorta purt'near killed someone, stole something, committed arson, you did or you didn't, all motivation aside.

One of the insidious evils of the human ability to rationalize things is that virtually anything, with the right 'logic' and repetition can be eventually justified through the process, and has been, from the retention of ill gotten gains to the genocidal slaughter of millions, to the physical destruction of babies in the womb and sale of their parts, to the institutionalized theft of property (or the use thereof) from its owners. Someone always has a logical sounding reason why such should be permitted, even though its fundamentally wrong.

The bar was set over 200 years ago by those who founded this country, and long before that by lawgivers acting in the name of their deities, who laid down the principles by which this Republic is to operate. Calls for compromise are the advocation (for the convenience or profit of those advocating that compromise) of breaking those rules, abandoning those principles, at least in part, of ignoring the law, of accepting the "good" over the perfect.

For those who advocate falling short of the mark, even as a 'pragmatic' gesture, an 'incremental step' to returning to those principles, if returning to the level of purity in concept and practice of those concepts that is demanded if the Supreme Law of the Land (The US Constitution) is to be accomplished, then we need to keep our eyes on that prize and not equivocate when it comes to the principles we would restore to practice.

Nor should we deride those who hold those principles sacrosanct, for they are not the enemy, but the standard bearers of our movement.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Snark
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2017, 01:48:46 pm »
I sense in your post an urgency to convince, to persuade. Don't be disappointed if you fall short. See, Ben Franklin pointed out, "It is not sufficient to appeal to intellect to persuade. To persuade, once must appeal to interest".

To establish interest (motivation) one must detect what a person WANTS. In the case of many self described Never Trumpers, what they want is revealed in what they call themselves - reasons to maintain, defend and justify an a priori - i.e., Trump is not O.K. Period. End of discussion.

Any information which does not fit into that template will (we may be certain of this at least) be wholly rejected.

We may see the essence of fanaticism here - a closed circle of impressions and information. When reading posts, it may be assured that a Never Trumper is not reading to understand nor much less ponder, they are reading in order to construct a retort. Purely.

Fanatics never say
Never see
Never think and
Never do
Anything
That's really new
Burma Shave.

I believe that in time, many self-described Never Trumpers will drop all of the defiant posturing and vituperative defensiveness, allow themselves the freedom to venture beyond the bounds of some stricture of honor- to cross that terrible line of admission of error (perhaps Trump was not the anti-Christ after all) and to rejoin the greater war effort with shoulder-to-wheel, sturm to drang, nose to grindstone.

In fact, many Never Trumpers, though vocal and bitter about things at the top, are still engaged in the political process (making political donations to candidates/causes, communicating with legislators/officials, working with campaigns) but they are just divorced from anything that even approaches tangible support for DJT. It is for them, a matter of honor.

See, once a person makes extreme declarations, (such and such is this way and no other) there is in their mind a terrible (intolerable) price to pay of humiliation to admit error. So their destiny is to defend those statements - that defiant emphatic declaration to their dying day. The alternative you see is to die - or at least to suffer some measure of humiliation or "loss of face" which though insignificant to virtually all living things save themselves, drives their resistance to any wavering or recantation the way a headwind drives a sailing vessel on the high seas.  Forward! Always forward!!
I think you place far too much emphasis on the egos of those who opposed the vituperation and incontinent prevarication that led to the nomination and election of the current office holder of the office of the President.

If you would take the time to look around this site, you would see few here have failed to give credit where credit is due, that even those of us who did not vote for Trump do not wish his administration to fail in those things he promised (at least the majority of them). When the actions of the President fail to achieve those ends, or worse, are counterproductive, we will point that out. Do not mistake the assessment of his actions, with neither pro nor con demagoguery, for a knee jerk reaction.
I find it interesting that those prone to demagoguery are quick to assert that as the motivation of others, and that those who have linked their personal egos to the perceived success or failure of the president are most prone to asserting success where there is none. But that's "WINNING!", by some definitions.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2017, 02:00:54 pm »

I find it interesting that those prone to demagoguery are quick to assert that as the motivation of others, and that those who have linked their personal egos to the perceived success or failure of the president are most prone to asserting success where there is none. But that's "WINNING!", by some definitions.

That is a bold statement and one for which I find no strong validation - at least not on this site. There are doubtless an abundance of fanatical, yammering pro-Trumpsters over yonder at TOS, but on the whole, those who defend Trump on this forum do so substantively and rationally with generally far-less emotion/hyperbole than you (and others on this thread) often ascribe to them.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 02:10:40 pm by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Snark
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2017, 02:04:08 pm »
That is a bold statement and one for which I find no strong validation - at least not on this site. There are doubtless an abundance of fanatical pro-Trumpsters over at yonder TOS, but on the whole, those who defend Trump on this forum do so substantively and by providing rational validation and with generally far less emotion/hyperbole than you (and others on this thread) often ascribe to them.
When Trump does right, I defend him, not that I or any of the others who might not have voted for him or only voted for him to stop Hillary ever get credit for doing so. Yet you will see the demagoguery even here, albeit more subdued than elsewhere, if you only look.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 02:05:23 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Snark
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2017, 02:06:12 pm »
I sense in your post an urgency to convince, to persuade. Don't be disappointed if you fall short. See, Ben Franklin pointed out, "It is not sufficient to appeal to intellect to persuade. To persuade, once must appeal to interest".

To establish interest (motivation) one must detect what a person WANTS. In the case of many self described Never Trumpers, what they want is revealed in what they call themselves - reasons to maintain, defend and justify an a priori - i.e., Trump is not O.K. Period. End of discussion.

Any information which does not fit into that template will (we may be certain of this at least) be wholly rejected.

We may see the essence of fanaticism here - a closed circle of impressions and information. When reading posts, it may be assured that a Never Trumper is not reading to understand nor much less ponder, they are reading in order to construct a retort. Purely.

Fanatics never say
Never see
Never think and
Never do
Anything
That's really new
Burma Shave.

I believe that in time, many self-described Never Trumpers will drop all of the defiant posturing and vituperative defensiveness, allow themselves the freedom to venture beyond the bounds of some stricture of honor- to cross that terrible line of admission of error (perhaps Trump was not the anti-Christ after all) and to rejoin the greater war effort with shoulder-to-wheel, sturm to drang, nose to grindstone.

In fact, many Never Trumpers, though vocal and bitter about things at the top, are still engaged in the political process (making political donations to candidates/causes, communicating with legislators/officials, working with campaigns) but they are just divorced from anything that even approaches tangible support for DJT. It is for them, a matter of honor.

See, once a person makes extreme declarations, (such and such is this way and no other) there is in their mind a terrible (intolerable) price to pay of humiliation to admit error. So their destiny is to defend those statements - that defiant emphatic declaration to their dying day. The alternative you see is to die - or at least to suffer some measure of humiliation or "loss of face" which though insignificant to virtually all living things save themselves, drives their resistance to any wavering or recantation the way a headwind drives a sailing vessel on the high seas.  Forward! Always forward!!

You raise interesting points in your post @LateForLunch and they've caused me to consider more fully my motivations for what I posted.  So thank you for taking the time to respond.

I did not answer @montanajoe  to "convince" but to assess and measure the depth of NT hatred and just how blind it may be---making your post among the wisest I've witnessed on this forum. 

Thank you again  :beer:


Offline XenaLee

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Re: Snark
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2017, 02:18:45 pm »
I find it interesting that here, perhaps especially here, those who hold the highest standards are encouraged to divest themselves of those standards and derided for maintaining them.

After all, that is, and has been the problem with the GOP. Raise the bar and be accused of being a 'perfectionist', standing in the way of the good, an evil unto yourself for wanting the very best, most Constitutional America possible: one in compliance with its own Supreme Law of the Land.

Oh, my. How unrealistic, how unpragmatic such aspirations are considered by those who would deride them. Yet, if not for an ideal, if not for goals to strive for, what is there to guide people in their lives but the rumbling in their belly, the irrational desire of shiny objects, and the occasional biological urges?

It seems to matter not whether those goals are those laid in scriptures for thousands of years, or the well thought out writings of political philosophers and statesmen of only a couple hundred years ago--among them our Founders. Whether those are laws set forth by deity or men, they are all ripe for the breaking if the perfect would just not stand in the way of the good.

Yet we daily want purity, if not in governance, in the water we drink, the food we eat, the air we breathe, even the rocks we wear for adornment, all as pure as possible, and even though we differ on the standard of what is 'pure', we want it, and often are perfectly happy to accommodate the concepts of purity others have, if not incorporate those concepts along with our own, so long as we see that end result as more pure. We place enough value on purity that we are willing to pay a premium for it, be that for what we consume, wear, or own.

Yet with governance it is not so. Even now those who claim to have the same goals, are willing to accept adulteration, and attack those with the highest standards as 'standing in the way of the good', for not being infused with a willingness, if not zeal, for abandoning principle in favor of pragmatism.

The old "Do something, even if it is wrong!' philosophy fails to take in that sometimes the best thing to do is nothing, that choosing to deliberate further is a choice, that the maid waiting for Mr Right may end up a spinster, or married to one heck of a guy.

If we are to have laws, especially codified overwhelming principles (for laws are only the attempt to set principles in practice), then we have decided those laws should bind all equally, should protect the least of us as well as those with great means, and should be immune to the trappings of power; they should apply equally to all.

What it takes is a set of standards and the cultural will to aspire to meeting those standards, on the ground on a day to day basis. In this instance, the 'excess' is in favor of what we had accepted as the best way to ensure Liberty, Life, and the secure accumulation of wealth. I would far rather deal with excesses of Liberty than the excesses of the absence thereof. 

I have noticed those on the Left whose philosophies are juxtaposed to and incompatible with ours have no such problem. They are content to accept any level of evil in the pursuit of their 'perfection', even though that 'perfection' includes everything in its philosophies from 'perfect' subjugation to 'perfect' monitoring of the subjects to "genetic purity" to 'perfect' control in their pursuit of their concept of perfection--right down to killing the 'imperfect' to remove them from the picture. All their forms of slavery are fine, except the past historical ones which are used to pursue those who resemble those who practiced it. Indeed their philosophies are anathema to the concepts of life, liberty, and property they decry for the very people they claim they liberate.

They have found their 'better way', their path to what they think will be Utopia, not by liberating others, but by liberating themselves from the very rules they would impose, but then if it were not for double standards they would have none.

The grave danger for those who consider themselves Conservative is to let those standards, that quest for the sort of purity become the enemy. "Doctrinaire fanatacism"another fine phrase for adhering to principle, and one who adheres to our principles should be our friend. Failure to adhere to our own principles, namely the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is what has created this mess. Our own government has not abided by the letter nor spirit of the law it is founded on.
What religion, what government, what entity can survive long if it will not go by its own rules nor hold true to its own law? What corporation routinely violates its own bylaws? Not even a local social club would long survive such egregious anarchy.

If you are a Conservative, you allegedly want to retain those founding principles of this nation, as laid forth in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where you see deviation from those founding principles, either you accept the deviation and wish to change the Constitution and Bill of Rights (the Democrat approach, through mainly judicial fiat), or you seek to return, in practice, to those codified principles that founded this nation.
You follow those principles or you seek to change, 'reinterpret', or get around them. 'In or out', in this instance, is not demagoguery, it is a question of following the law. There is no kinda sorta purt'near killed someone, stole something, committed arson, you did or you didn't, all motivation aside.

One of the insidious evils of the human ability to rationalize things is that virtually anything, with the right 'logic' and repetition can be eventually justified through the process, and has been, from the retention of ill gotten gains to the genocidal slaughter of millions, to the physical destruction of babies in the womb and sale of their parts, to the institutionalized theft of property (or the use thereof) from its owners. Someone always has a logical sounding reason why such should be permitted, even though its fundamentally wrong.

The bar was set over 200 years ago by those who founded this country, and long before that by lawgivers acting in the name of their deities, who laid down the principles by which this Republic is to operate. Calls for compromise are the advocation (for the convenience or profit of those advocating that compromise) of breaking those rules, abandoning those principles, at least in part, of ignoring the law, of accepting the "good" over the perfect.

For those who advocate falling short of the mark, even as a 'pragmatic' gesture, an 'incremental step' to returning to those principles, if returning to the level of purity in concept and practice of those concepts that is demanded if the Supreme Law of the Land (The US Constitution) is to be accomplished, then we need to keep our eyes on that prize and not equivocate when it comes to the principles we would restore to practice.

Nor should we deride those who hold those principles sacrosanct, for they are not the enemy, but the standard bearers of our movement.

Ironic, isn't it.  Especially since.... those of us that seek to hold our elected "representatives" (term used loosely in today's GOP environment) accountable for the promises (lies) that they have made to us in order to get elected.... are then called purists.... as if that's a 'bad thing'.... by our so-called rightie cohorts.... if/when we refuse to settle for 'anything less' than what was promised by said elected representatives.   

And since settling for 'anything less' would be detrimental to the welfare of us, our families and to the entire rest of the nation .... we hold firm in our demands.  For that we are attacked, derided, bashed and called "purists" by those that are supposedly on the same political side of the aisle.

Ironic, indeed. 

Excellent post, btw.
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Snark
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2017, 02:26:39 pm »

I sense in your post an urgency to convince, to persuade. Don't be disappointed if you fall short. See, Ben Franklin pointed out, "It is not sufficient to appeal to intellect to persuade. To persuade, once must appeal to interest".

To establish interest (motivation) one must detect what a person WANTS. In the case of many self described Never Trumpers, what they want is revealed in what they call themselves - reasons to maintain, defend and justify an a priori - i.e., Trump is not O.K. Period. End of discussion.

Any information which does not fit into that template will (we may be certain of this at least) be wholly rejected.

We may see the essence of fanaticism here - a closed circle of impressions and information. When reading posts, it may be assured that a Never Trumper is not reading to understand nor much less ponder, they are reading in order to construct a retort. Purely.

Fanatics never say
Never see
Never think and
Never do
Anything
That's really new
Burma Shave.

I believe that in time, many self-described Never Trumpers will drop all of the defiant posturing and vituperative defensiveness, allow themselves the freedom to venture beyond the bounds of some stricture of honor- to cross that terrible line of admission of error (perhaps Trump was not the anti-Christ after all) and to rejoin the greater war effort with shoulder-to-wheel, sturm to drang, nose to grindstone.

In fact, many Never Trumpers, though vocal and bitter about things at the top, are still engaged in the political process (making political donations to candidates/causes, communicating with legislators/officials, working with campaigns) but they are just divorced from anything that even approaches tangible support for DJT. It is for them, a matter of honor.

See, once a person makes extreme declarations, (such and such is this way and no other) there is in their mind a terrible (intolerable) price to pay of humiliation to admit error. So their destiny is to defend those statements - that defiant emphatic declaration to their dying day. The alternative you see is to die - or at least to suffer some measure of humiliation or "loss of face" which though insignificant to virtually all living things save themselves, drives their resistance to any wavering or recantation the way a headwind drives a sailing vessel on the high seas.  Forward! Always forward!!


Magnificent! 

After two years of snark and bitterness here, it's refreshing to read such an eloquent POV of the everlasting question, ...."WTF is their problem?"   

 :beer: 
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2017, 02:35:18 pm »
TYVM!! Your own posts are often very much on target with effectiveness as well and I enjoy them a great deal, siuer !!

That being said my brother, I find that I personally dislike the manner in which DJT conducts his PR. I respect his decision to Tweet and scrap and do the Bug Scuffle, but I don't like it. My emotional reaction is to prefer to be pleasant in all things where possible.

That may be one reason that I am not a multi-billionaire nor President of the United States.

I'm fairly sure that if Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great, or president Andrew Jackson were here to comment, they would all shrug and say, "I don't see the problem. What's all the hubbub?"

I already lost my innocence in regard to this when I was told in no uncertain terms by relatives in the medical profession, "If you want the best surgeon, don't choose the one with the nicest, most polite manners, go with the large type a-hole - they are generally better surgeons."

Sadly, statesmanship seems to be a thing of the past. We are well into the Pop Culture /Mass Media-dominated era of politics. We are all stuck in the newer, cheaper age. To paraphrase Hunter Thompson, "When the going gets ugly, the ugly turn pro".

« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 02:46:37 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Mom MD

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Re: Snark
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2017, 02:36:35 pm »
Magnificent! 

After two years of snark and bitterness here, it's refreshing to read such an eloquent POV of the everlasting question, ...."WTF is their problem?"   

 :beer:

Not so fast.  The same could be applied to those who blindly approve of everything Trump does and cannot admit any error in his behavior.  I truly think most of us here are skeptical - not a supporter but willing to give credit when he does something right.  Blind worship or blind dislike serves no one and does not improve the discourse.
God is still in control

Offline aligncare

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Re: Snark
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2017, 02:39:44 pm »


Saying the President is “unfit for office” is a serious and sweeping judgment and IMO you have not justified it.



"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, have you reached a verdict?"

"We have, Your Honor"

"What say you?"

"We find the defendant, Donald John Trump... Not Guilty of Unfitness."

Judge: "Are you certain members of the jury have reached a Just decision?"

Foreman: "We think so Your Honor."

Evening headlines: Doubts Linger Over Trump Jury Decision

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Snark
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2017, 02:43:55 pm »
Magnificent! 

After two years of snark and bitterness here, it's refreshing to read such an eloquent POV of the everlasting question, ...."WTF is their problem?"   

 :beer:

Yeah, I agree with the first part of your statement.  I'm still not sure why you carried it on that long, and continue to even now.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Snark
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2017, 02:52:31 pm »
Not so fast.  The same could be applied to those who blindly approve of everything Trump does and cannot admit any error in his behavior.  I truly think most of us here are skeptical - not a supporter but willing to give credit when he does something right.  Blind worship or blind dislike serves no one and does not improve the discourse.

???

I've been an unwavering fan of Donald Trump since he took the escalator down to the microphones.

Never expected anything other than a Conservative-leaning SCOTUS judge...or three, and a screeching halt to Obama's anti-American, anti-Capitalist sprint to wreck everything we hold sacred.

Don't give a damn how many p#####s he grabbed in his day.

Now...after ALL that, let's include what the alternative we were looking at with a Hillary Clinton presidency.

And after doing that, if one is still rabidly anti-Trump around here, then just understand...it's THEM behind the glass...THEY who become exhibits.  Not us!    :laugh:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 02:56:25 pm by DCPatriot »
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2017, 03:16:00 pm »
Yeah, I agree with the first part of your statement.  I'm still not sure why you carried it on that long, and continue to even now.

It's a conflict between the rationalist and the emotional viewpoint. DC Patriot and many in his camp feel that they have compelling rational arguments to support Trump and get very frustrated that others who disagree remain intransigent. That frustration often generates a tendency toward vituperation i.e., "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE REASON!?!"

The strident Never Trump camp has a list of his major shortcomings/offenses which constitute ample reason (in their view) for rejection. For them, these reasons are often highly subjective but no less compelling because they intuitively link them to their past experiences of similar behavior and all sorts of alarm bells go off.

But maybe DJT is not like the others. Maybe he is a singular figure - someone who seeks moral ends by seemingly immoral (or at least highly distasteful)means and is one of those rare intellects* which can - against all odds and reason, achieve them!! Maybe he doesn't fit into ANY previous categories or pigeon holes because he is in some very significant ways, entirely unique.

To Trump Supporters I would say, let the Never Trumpers reach their own conclusions in their own time- don't imagine that rational argument - no matter how compelling they may seem to you, will persuade them.

It has to do with the psychology of persuasion. Even if people disagree with you on the open forum, where people tend to defend their opinions the way Raptors defend their eggs, when they are alone with their thoughts, they may reconsider their positions. When ego is not on the line, people are more likely to really consider things in a calm, rational way.

Nobody changes an opinion about politics by confrontation with rational argument. That's because most strong opinions are arrived at primarily through emotions/intuition, which are a synthesis of unconscious and conscious content. We don't really consciously choose our attitudes, they emerge out of our feelings/intuitions which we develop from cogitation. This is almost purely an emotional process.

So don't be too upset if a Never Trumper seems to be blowing off your arguments. They may consider them later. I've seen it happen on other fora!! Patience is a virtue and one of the enduring frustrations of reality is that we can't crawl inside another person's skin and live their life for them.

* Regarding unique intellects/personality types, CG Jung (the great psychologist and colleague of Sigmund Freud) identified some personality types as "extroverted/irrational". That does not mean they are insane, but rather in the Jungian psychological lexicon, "irrational" means that they use "impressions" to make many decisions. An impression (in the same lexicon), is a perception achieved in a person's mind which is a complex mélange of rational (logic, reason, factual), empirical (experience), and affective (raw emotion/intuition). Most people are either emotion/intuition-centered or thinking-centered. Extroverted/irrational personality types are somewhere in the middle - therefore they do not easily fit into our past experiences with people and often seem very strange or even scary. They are often very good at dealing with chaos because they commonly aren't disturbed by it - in some cases they THRIVE on chaotic situations where others are daunted and dismayed by them. Michael Eisner is one such personality. They are often very successful or sometimes, very troublesome characters. Eisner for instance, was also known to be a grand champion a-hole who fired people by the barrel and was known to be disagreeable - however, he turned Disney from a failing company into a powerhouse of the media age.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 03:47:00 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Snark
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2017, 03:23:36 pm »
It's a conflict between the rationalist and the emotional viewpoint. DC Patriot and many in his camp feels that they have a compelling rational argument to support Trump and get very frustrated that others who disagree remain intransigent. That frustration often generates a tendency toward vituperation i.e., "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE REASON!?!"

The strident Never Trump camps has a list of shortcomings and offenses which constitute ample reason for their own rejection. For them, these reasons are often highly subjective but no less compelling because they intuitively link them to their past experiences of similar behavior and all sorts of alarm bells go off.

I would say to Never Trumpers, maybe DJT is not like the others. Maybe he is a singular figure - someone who seeks moral ends by immoral means and is one of those rare intellects which can - against all odds and reason, achieve them!! Maybe he doesn't fit into ANY previous categories or pigeon holes because he is in some very significant ways, entirely unique.

To Trump Supporters I would say, let the Never Trumpers reach their own conclusions in their own time- don't imagine that rational argument - no matter how compelling they may seem to you, will persuade them.

It has to do with the psychology of persuasion. Even if people disagree with you on the open forum, where people tend to defend their opinions the way Raptors defend their eggs, when they are alone with their thoughts, they may reconsider their positions. When ego is not on the line, people are more likely to really consider things in a calm, rational way.

Nobody changes an opinion about politics by confrontation in the form of rational argument. That's because most opinions are arrived at through emotions/intuition, which are a synthesis of unconscious and conscious content. We don't consciously choose our attitudes, they emerge out of our feelings/intuitions which we develop from cogitation, which is almost purely an emotional process.

So don't be too upset if Never Trumper seem to be blowing off your arguments. They may consider them later. I've seen it happen on other fora!! Patience is a virtue and one of the enduring frustrations of reality is that we can't crawl inside another person's skin and live their life for them.

I'm neither an EverTrumper or a NeverTrumper, which I think is the only non-emotion-based, rational position.  You make a mistake of logic when you attribute rationality to EverTrumpers.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Snark
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2017, 03:27:23 pm »
I'm neither an EverTrumper or a NeverTrumper, which I think is the only non-emotion-based, rational position.  You make a mistake of logic when you attribute rationality to EverTrumpers.

It should be noted, when it comes to "snark", you evidently take a back seat to nobody!      :laugh:
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Snark
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2017, 03:40:05 pm »
It should be noted, when it comes to "snark", you evidently take a back seat to nobody!      :laugh:

Just stating the facts.   :beer:

Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Snark
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2017, 05:34:23 pm »
The main reason for being "never Trump" is summed up in the passage from Lord Acton's The History of Freedom in Antiquity:

At all times sincere friends of freedom have been rare, and its triumphs have been due to minorities, that have prevailed by associating themselves with auxiliaries whose objects often differed from their own; and this association, which is always dangerous, has been sometimes disastrous, by giving to opponents just grounds of opposition, and by kindling dispute over the spoils in the hour of success. No obstacle has been so constant, or so difficult to overcome, as uncertainty and confusion touching the nature of true liberty. If hostile interests have wrought much injury, false ideas have wrought still more; and its advance is recorded in the increase of knowledge, as much as in the improvement of laws.


In the American context, sincere friends of freedom are called "conservatives", since conserving the American Founding is the surest guard of freedom we Americans have.  The morally unmoored economic nationalism of Trump and his true believers, represents is not conservatism, but an auxiliary, association with may be useful to the advance of freedom, as for example in the appointment of Justice Gorsuch, but this association is dangerous and may become disastrous, has certainly given opponents just grounds of opposition, and likely will kindle dispute over the spoils if the uneasy coalition of actual American conservatives and Trumpites is ever successful in advancing an agenda beyond deregulation and shifting the bench right-ward. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:34:59 pm by The_Reader_David »
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2017, 05:59:09 pm »
The main reason for being "never Trump" is summed up in the passage from Lord Acton's The History of Freedom in Antiquity:

At all times sincere friends of freedom have been rare, and its triumphs have been due to minorities, that have prevailed by associating themselves with auxiliaries whose objects often differed from their own; and this association, which is always dangerous, has been sometimes disastrous, by giving to opponents just grounds of opposition, and by kindling dispute over the spoils in the hour of success. No obstacle has been so constant, or so difficult to overcome, as uncertainty and confusion touching the nature of true liberty. If hostile interests have wrought much injury, false ideas have wrought still more; and its advance is recorded in the increase of knowledge, as much as in the improvement of laws.


In the American context, sincere friends of freedom are called "conservatives", since conserving the American Founding is the surest guard of freedom we Americans have.  The morally unmoored economic nationalism of Trump and his true believers, represents is not conservatism, but an auxiliary, association with may be useful to the advance of freedom, as for example in the appointment of Justice Gorsuch, but this association is dangerous and may become disastrous, has certainly given opponents just grounds of opposition, and likely will kindle dispute over the spoils if the uneasy coalition of actual American conservatives and Trumpites is ever successful in advancing an agenda beyond deregulation and shifting the bench right-ward.

I question your authority to speak for everyone who is a self-described Never Trumper. Letting that pass for now, in response to the content of your post, it is possible that some of what you say may be correct - about dangers being present. That being said, danger is everywhere. I'm not sure that reinforces any aspect of your point, however.

Furthermore and perhaps more to my point here, DJT may not fit into any category that you provide for him in your post. If you cannot acknowledge that at least, then you are tracing the same path that many who have gone before you have done and I therefore cannot agree with your conclusions even slightly.

DJT may not be a "conservative" but I question whether there is really a consistent definition of that term, or whether even that is important. The CIC is for all intents and purposes a machine which itself seeks to steer the marginally controllable hurricane that we call the U.S. government to its least disastrous, most benevolent course.

A preoccupation with ascribing definitions or demarcations to the scope or attributes of the principle's administration has, as far as I am concerned, very little value as compared with examining that administrations overt actions.

I predicted that DJT would attempt to steer a center-right (mostly conservative leaning) administration in his first term because he wants to be reelected and that would seem to me to be the most expedient way to accomplish that goal.

I do object to the term "morally unmoored" since it is not specific enough for me and therefore has little meaning. Mark Levin speaks for me when he says that DJT needs to steer clear of adopting "agrarian populism" which would include Wilsonian tariff fetishism or other measures which could set off a trade war with allies. One would hope that DJT would spend a good amount of his time consulting with VP Pence and others with some background in the history of government on such issues to avoid problems.

He has apparently decided to continue the methodology of open confrontation with those who openly oppose him for his own reasons. That is his prerogative and I will not fault him too much for that. His reelection campaign will bear the burden of that for good or ill (if he runs).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:09:59 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Snark
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2017, 06:19:29 pm »
Respectfully, I think that your hurt feelings have clouded many of your perceptions with over-generalities and led to (forgive me) outright incorrect conclusions.

Exactly what a wifebeater would tell his spouse.  I'm done with the abuse and the lies and the cheating and the beatings.  It is an apostate party now dominated by big government liberals that run the show.  The fruits testify to this fact.  You are free to ignore it - but insisting the rest of us ignore it is not gonna happen.

The level of your conviction very clearly tells me that you are not ready to consider any alternative views.

Nope.  Might as well try selling me on homosexual marriage as being biblical or that Satanism is a better belief system. 

That is unfortunate, not so much for you (indeed, you seem very satisfied with yourself) as for the nation and the Republican party which you believe is not only utterly and completely useless, but worse, complicit in every significant regard with the worst attributes of the far left.

Bingo!

Beware self-righteousness. I imagine that somewhere deep down inside your heart of hearts, you are not nearly as confident in everything you declare as you represent in your post(s).

Well Dr. Shrink, you need to return that PhD degree you yanked out of a Cracker Jack Box.  I am wholly confident in that what I type, I am confident in stating.

A thirst for towering certainty, bold separations into absolute good and absolute bad, without nuance or doubt of the slightest shade pervades this post.

Blah, blah, blah, blah gobbledygook .

Pondering and long consideration of alternative points of view does not come easily to you.

Not when it's bullshit and anathema to those principles and values that govern my thinking.

You mention Tolkien's Mordor.

It perfectly describes D.C. - a corrupt cesspool of Orc-ish political vermin in a barren wasteland of foundational principles where the very air they breathe is a poisonous fume of Statism.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

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Offline INVAR

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Re: Snark
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2017, 06:29:36 pm »
I find it interesting that here, perhaps especially here, those who hold the highest standards are encouraged to divest themselves of those standards and derided for maintaining them.

After all, that is, and has been the problem with the GOP. Raise the bar and be accused of being a 'perfectionist', standing in the way of the good, an evil unto yourself for wanting the very best, most Constitutional America possible: one in compliance with its own Supreme Law of the Land.

Oh, my. How unrealistic, how unpragmatic such aspirations are considered by those who would deride them. Yet, if not for an ideal, if not for goals to strive for, what is there to guide people in their lives but the rumbling in their belly, the irrational desire of shiny objects, and the occasional biological urges?

It seems to matter not whether those goals are those laid in scriptures for thousands of years, or the well thought out writings of political philosophers and statesmen of only a couple hundred years ago--among them our Founders. Whether those are laws set forth by deity or men, they are all ripe for the breaking if the perfect would just not stand in the way of the good.

Yet we daily want purity, if not in governance, in the water we drink, the food we eat, the air we breathe, even the rocks we wear for adornment, all as pure as possible, and even though we differ on the standard of what is 'pure', we want it, and often are perfectly happy to accommodate the concepts of purity others have, if not incorporate those concepts along with our own, so long as we see that end result as more pure. We place enough value on purity that we are willing to pay a premium for it, be that for what we consume, wear, or own.

Yet with governance it is not so. Even now those who claim to have the same goals, are willing to accept adulteration, and attack those with the highest standards as 'standing in the way of the good', for not being infused with a willingness, if not zeal, for abandoning principle in favor of pragmatism.

The old "Do something, even if it is wrong!' philosophy fails to take in that sometimes the best thing to do is nothing, that choosing to deliberate further is a choice, that the maid waiting for Mr Right may end up a spinster, or married to one heck of a guy.

If we are to have laws, especially codified overwhelming principles (for laws are only the attempt to set principles in practice), then we have decided those laws should bind all equally, should protect the least of us as well as those with great means, and should be immune to the trappings of power; they should apply equally to all.

What it takes is a set of standards and the cultural will to aspire to meeting those standards, on the ground on a day to day basis. In this instance, the 'excess' is in favor of what we had accepted as the best way to ensure Liberty, Life, and the secure accumulation of wealth. I would far rather deal with excesses of Liberty than the excesses of the absence thereof. 

I have noticed those on the Left whose philosophies are juxtaposed to and incompatible with ours have no such problem. They are content to accept any level of evil in the pursuit of their 'perfection', even though that 'perfection' includes everything in its philosophies from 'perfect' subjugation to 'perfect' monitoring of the subjects to "genetic purity" to 'perfect' control in their pursuit of their concept of perfection--right down to killing the 'imperfect' to remove them from the picture. All their forms of slavery are fine, except the past historical ones which are used to pursue those who resemble those who practiced it. Indeed their philosophies are anathema to the concepts of life, liberty, and property they decry for the very people they claim they liberate.

They have found their 'better way', their path to what they think will be Utopia, not by liberating others, but by liberating themselves from the very rules they would impose, but then if it were not for double standards they would have none.

The grave danger for those who consider themselves Conservative is to let those standards, that quest for the sort of purity become the enemy. "Doctrinaire fanatacism"another fine phrase for adhering to principle, and one who adheres to our principles should be our friend. Failure to adhere to our own principles, namely the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is what has created this mess. Our own government has not abided by the letter nor spirit of the law it is founded on.
What religion, what government, what entity can survive long if it will not go by its own rules nor hold true to its own law? What corporation routinely violates its own bylaws? Not even a local social club would long survive such egregious anarchy.

If you are a Conservative, you allegedly want to retain those founding principles of this nation, as laid forth in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where you see deviation from those founding principles, either you accept the deviation and wish to change the Constitution and Bill of Rights (the Democrat approach, through mainly judicial fiat), or you seek to return, in practice, to those codified principles that founded this nation.
You follow those principles or you seek to change, 'reinterpret', or get around them. 'In or out', in this instance, is not demagoguery, it is a question of following the law. There is no kinda sorta purt'near killed someone, stole something, committed arson, you did or you didn't, all motivation aside.

One of the insidious evils of the human ability to rationalize things is that virtually anything, with the right 'logic' and repetition can be eventually justified through the process, and has been, from the retention of ill gotten gains to the genocidal slaughter of millions, to the physical destruction of babies in the womb and sale of their parts, to the institutionalized theft of property (or the use thereof) from its owners. Someone always has a logical sounding reason why such should be permitted, even though its fundamentally wrong.

The bar was set over 200 years ago by those who founded this country, and long before that by lawgivers acting in the name of their deities, who laid down the principles by which this Republic is to operate. Calls for compromise are the advocation (for the convenience or profit of those advocating that compromise) of breaking those rules, abandoning those principles, at least in part, of ignoring the law, of accepting the "good" over the perfect.

For those who advocate falling short of the mark, even as a 'pragmatic' gesture, an 'incremental step' to returning to those principles, if returning to the level of purity in concept and practice of those concepts that is demanded if the Supreme Law of the Land (The US Constitution) is to be accomplished, then we need to keep our eyes on that prize and not equivocate when it comes to the principles we would restore to practice.

Nor should we deride those who hold those principles sacrosanct, for they are not the enemy, but the standard bearers of our movement.

Textbook EXCELLENCE in response to the entire effort the Republicans/Pro-Trump big government coop make daily against anyone daring to defy Big Party orthodoxy.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2017, 06:29:55 pm »
Exactly what a wifebeater would tell his spouse.  I'm done with the abuse and the lies and the cheating and the beatings.  It is an apostate party now dominated by big government liberals that run the show.  The fruits testify to this fact.  You are free to ignore it - but insisting the rest of us ignore it is not gonna happen.

Nope.  Might as well try selling me on homosexual marriage as being biblical or that Satanism is a better belief system. 

Bingo!

Well Dr. Shrink, you need to return that PhD degree you yanked out of a Cracker Jack Box.  I am wholly confident in that what I type, I am confident in stating.

Blah, blah, blah, blah gobbledygook .

Not when it's bullshit and anathema to those principles and values that govern my thinking.

It perfectly describes D.C. - a corrupt cesspool of Orc-ish political vermin in a barren wasteland of foundational principles where the very air they breathe is a poisonous fume of Statism.

When you are able to post to this topic without resorting to profanity, harsh condemnations and general shot-gun-style hostility I will take them more seriously. As it is, posts on this forum seem to fall into two general categories - those meant to engage in expression and promotion of thoughts, information and opinions and which invite exchange...and those which are meant to shut down exchange of those same things. Your post here seems in the latter category. In fact, the entire post seems to be among those very common to self-described Never Trumpers and Ever-Trumper alike, which seem to be focused on re-convincing themselves by application of more and more forceful, emphatic and self-assured over-the-top hyperbole. IOW, a waste of time for everyone except yourself and those of like mind who would read it and cheer, "Yeah!! You tell 'em man!! Screw HIM!!"
I do not doubt your sincerity nor your passion nor even your conservatism, but I am disappointed in your performance in this area - I expect better from someone of your quality and general wisdom.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:35:48 pm by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Snark
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2017, 06:40:22 pm »
Those who deride us for forsaking the good in search of the perfect...
Smokin' Joe has a good heart and often posts with excellence, but I have never derided anyone.

Likewise, I qualified the use of that term "forsaking the good in search of the perfect" to those who apply doctrinaire rigid standards to affairs of state and who declare that DJT is unfit for office because he is a "liberal". The last time I checked liberals do not appoint people like Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court.

Awaiting your substantive response and hitting my stop watch NOW...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:41:15 pm by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)