Replacing the Republican Party

[Cyber Liberty]

Really?  When was that?  At the Convention perhaps?

There were a lot of Primaries, and Trump got more votes than Cruz IIRC.  It was very frustrating because there were a lot of people who said they preferred Cruz but were voting Trump because they didn't think Cruz could beat Clinton.  I really detested that reasoning, because these people were allowing themselves to be tricked by phony polls.

[INVAR]

That's what INVAR wants -  he seeks to be holier than thou.  He's on a self-styled mission from God,  and in that context wants to destroy the GOP without a care in the world for the real-life consequences.   His motivation's the most selfish of all - he's somehow convinced himself that purity of essence will keep him from becoming worm food.

Come on now Invar...enough

[sneakypete]

@truth_seeker

I don't understand it either.  The problem isn't the label.  The problem is a lack of enough conservative-minded voters to win primary elections, then win the general elections.  Collins, Murkowski, and the rest of the moderates win because there aren't enough conservatives in their states to knock them out in the primary.  And if there aren't enough conservatives to win even the GOP primary, how can there possibly be enough to beat both the D's and the R's in a general election?

@Maj. Bill Martin @truth_seeker

Is the problem a lack of conservative voters,or a lack of conservative candidates to motivate the voters to go to the polls?

"Build it (a party with candiates worth voting for) and they will come!"

[Sanguine]

There were a lot of Primaries, and Trump got more votes than Cruz IIRC.  It was very frustrating because there were a lot of people who said they preferred Cruz but were voting Trump because they didn't think Cruz could beat Clinton.  I really detested that reasoning, because these people were allowing themselves to be tricked by phony polls.

True, but Cruz had a chance at the Convention until the Priebus/Trump wing finagled him out.

[roamer_1]

Upon what do you base that belief?  I see no evidence of that. 

We just had one of the most wide-open, highly-publicized GOP primaries in history.  Record-setting participation.  And among the candidates was Ted Cruz, who I think most would concede was clearly the most conservative potential nominee we had in a really long time.  And he was going up against a non-conservative populist in Trump. 

If there was one election where true, die-hard conservatives should have come out of the woodwork to vote, it should have been this one.  So if this country is "far and away" conservative, why didn't all those conservatives result in Ted waltzing to the nomination?  All those conservatives should have won him the nomination in a landslide.

@roamer_1

Record setting? LOL! Trump won with 26% of the population. He barely beat the most beatable candidate in history, and lost in the popular vote. More than half the country stayed home.

Unlike you and I, most of this country isn't political. Most don't follow it breathlessly. Most don't participate in primaries, and could care less. They are busy making ends meet. Especially Conservatives. That is why a dysfunctional Republican party is such an evil thing. Folks rely on the political class to do the right thing, and then pick from there in the general... or stay home.

The absurdity of Republican strategy is in taking voters from the democrats. They should be looking to get their voters from the great unwashed masses that stay on the bench.

[sneakypete]

   

Those of us who are social conservative/religious

I am a Constitutional Conservative,and take pride in likely being one of the least religious people you are ever likely to meet because the TRUTH is that organized religion is about enslaving people,not freeing them. The only upside is that is THIS country no one is required by law to be a "follower" to get a job,buy property,etc,etc,etc. We have choices,and one of the biggest freedoms we have is the freedom FROM religion. That was a VERY big deal when the Bill of Rights was being debated,but got watered down afterwards as the various religious cults gained political power,and the end result was and is insane laws like Sunday Blue Laws,laws against non-married adults of different genders co-habituating,etc,etc,etc.

The Founding Fathers were all from Europe,and knew well the dangers of organized religion  mating with government.

do not see politics as the ultimate end.

Politics is nothing more than a tool. Like any other tool,it should work for US,the owners,not have US work for the employees we "hire".

 

We answer to a higher power and hold to ultimate truth. 

What's this "We" stuff? You pregnant?

For us the end game is not to win the next election, it is to stand firm and hear the "well done" when we finally stand in front of our maker.

 

Who is keeping you from voting for your Gawd? BTW,which Gawd are you voting for? The Catholic God,the Protestant God,the Hindu God,the Communist God (Marx),the Buddist God,the Jewish God,etc,etc,etc?

Just make sure when you fill out your write in ballot that you specify WHICH "God" you are voting for because there are so many of them.

All else is a distant second.

Ahhh,you are on a mission to make your God our President!

I prefer to live free.

@roamer_1
@txradioguy

[roamer_1]

They had the chance to vote *for* Ted Cruz.

They didn't.

It's always and forever been a problem to get folks to come to the primaries.
And all the lying about Cruz (that was supported by the media and the GOP) didn't help matters.

[INVAR]

Record setting? LOL! Trump won with 26% of the population. He barely beat the most beatable candidate in history, and lost in the popular vote. More than half the country stayed home.

If memory serves, the RNC changed the rules so a PLURALITY would win the nomination rather than a candidate winning a solid majority.

Doesn't matter anyway.

The Republican Party is Apostate from the principles of Liberty, Limited Government and our Foundations.  Their priests preach it when running for office and join with the Party Anathema to foundational principles to promote Liberalism themselves and put their own stamp of approval on Big Government, excoriating and eschewing those who will not follow the new Doctrines.

If you stay in an association that is apostate - your own principles will of necessity be perverted and you too will be forced to support and make excuses for Socialism as being necessary to grow the tent and fill the pews to give them more 'power'.

If your principles are solidly Conservative, staying in the Republican Party is a death knell for them.

[sneakypete]

IMHO the Conservative voters are still out there...they are just choosing to vote with their feet and stay home.  They are tired of the false prophets claiming to be Conservative...and being told that voting for the almost Liberal Republican is the only way to win.  They get sick of being told their core beliefs are antiquated and bigoted and that to "move the party forward" we have to be more like Democrats in order to make people like us.

The simple answer in this complex world for Conservatives is there is no one in the positions of real power within the GOP that represent them.  So because they have standards and because they stick to their values...they stay home.

 

[roamer_1]

There were a lot of Primaries, and Trump got more votes than Cruz IIRC.  It was very frustrating because there were a lot of people who said they preferred Cruz but were voting Trump because they didn't think Cruz could beat Clinton.  I really detested that reasoning, because these people were allowing themselves to be tricked by phony polls.

I know Right?
circular self-fulfilling prophecy... 'Running to their prophets with itching ears'...

[roamer_1]

"Build it (a party with candiates worth voting for) and they will come!"

That is right.

[sneakypete]

If they aren't willing to vote in the primaries to nominate more conservatives, why would they vote for a third party?  If everyone just lies to them, it changing the label won't change that.

 

@Maj. Bill Martin

It takes a LOT of money to run in local and state primaries,and if you aren't one of the Cult Approved Likely Suspects that "The Party" knows they can count on to carry their water,you ain't getting a dime. What you WILL get is a VERY well-financed opposition working against you to try to bury your campaign in bankruptcy as you try to spend to keep up.

The only reason Trump was able to run and win was because his wealth and ego had made him well-known all over the country,and he had the bucks to promote himself until the cash started coming in.

If you ain't a member of The Borg,the Borg ain't going to do anything but squash you like a bug on a windshield.

[roamer_1]

If memory serves, the RNC changed the rules so a PLURALITY would win the nomination rather than a candidate winning a solid majority.

That's right.

If your principles are solidly Conservative, staying in the Republican Party is a death knell for them.

That's right too.

[aligncare]

There was lying about Ted Cruz? Okay. But there was also lying about Donald Trump (coming at him at break neck speed from all corners of the political universe) – yet Trump won the primary.

Were some lies better than others? Or, did voters look past the lies and vote their consciences?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I dunno...in a country with 130 million or so voters, that is supposedly "far and away" conservative, Ted pulled a grand total of 7.8 million votes.

Polls show that roughly 40% of the country self-identifies as "conservative".  But that includes all those people with a much different definition of "conservative" than we might have -- Jeb Bush, John Kasich, etc.  Just look at what happened with TOS and this place.  Clearly, for self-described conservatives, we had very different visions of what that actually meant.

The number of people we might consider actual conservatives is probably half that 40%.  Maybe less. 

[txradioguy]

There was lying about Ted Cruz? Okay. But there was also lying about Donald Trump (coming at him at break neck speed from all corners of the political universe) – yet Trump won the primary.

Were some lies better than others? Or, did voters look past the lies and vote their consciences?

Just can't leave a decent civilized conversation about politics alone can you?

At the very least you could contribute instead of coming in and subtly trying to pick a fight.

[sneakypete]

They had the chance to vote *for* Ted Cruz.

They didn't.

@Maj. Bill Martin

Here's a radical thought for you to consider,maybe most people consider Cruz to be a mush-mouth weasel who is more of a part of the problem than he is an answer?

I started out as a Cruz supporter myself because he SEEMED to be the only actual conservative in the race,but as time passed I liked him less and less,and had decided to just not vote for a president candidate in the primary.

AGAIN.

Which meant I wouldn't be voting for a presidential candidate in the actual election,either.

Then it occurred to me that IF Trump could win,his ego would prevent him from being a "go along to get along weasel",and he just might be the bomb-thrower we need. At a minimum,he couldn't be worse than Hillary. So the night before the election I decided to vote for Trump,and am glad I did.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Maj. Bill Martin

It takes a LOT of money to run in local and state primaries,and if you aren't one of the Cult Approved Likely Suspects that "The Party" knows they can count on to carry their water,you ain't getting a dime. What you WILL get is a VERY well-financed opposition working against you to try to bury your campaign in bankruptcy as you try to spend to keep up.

The only reason Trump was able to run and win was because his wealth and ego had made him well-known all over the country,and he had the bucks to promote himself until the cash started coming in.

If you ain't a member of The Borg,the Borg ain't going to do anything but squash you like a bug on a windshield.

Ted Cruz had plenty of publicity.  People -- certainly at least the "true conservatives" that supposedly are far and away the majority -- knew the differences between Cruz and Trump.  And he still couldn't even get 8 million votes.

I just think we need to stop feeding ourselves feel-good myths about this supposed "conservative majority".  The evidence to support its existence simply does not exist.  If we want it to exist, we've got a lot of people to persuade.

[truth_seeker]

@Maj. Bill Martin @truth_seeker

Is the problem a lack of conservative voters,or a lack of conservative candidates to motivate the voters to go to the polls?

"Build it (a party with candiates worth voting for) and they will come!"

@sneakypete @Maj. Bill Martin

What I mean by inability to convince voters, is a combination of message, messenger, personality, etc.

Reagan had it, and few since him have. Trump comes the closest, in my view. He made ordinary people, look and listen twice.

The ordinary, entrenched political community is still flummoxed, e.g. what happened? They are starting over, recycling their objections, with "racist," etc.

[aligncare]

Just can't leave a decent civilized conversation about politics alone can you?

At the very least you could contribute instead of coming in and subtly trying to pick a fight.

Someone said Trump lied about Cruz. Is that the example of 'civilized conversation about politics' to which you are referring?

[txradioguy]

I dunno...in a country with 130 million or so voters, that is supposedly "far and away" conservative, Ted pulled a grand total of 7.8 million votes.

Polls show that roughly 40% of the country self-identifies as "conservative".  But that includes all those people with a much different definition of "conservative" than we might have -- Jeb Bush, John Kasich, etc.  Just look at what happened with TOS and this place.  Clearly, for self-described conservatives, we had very different visions of what that actually meant.

The number of people we might consider actual conservatives is probably half that 40%.  Maybe less.

It was an extremely diluted field this time around.  16 candidates.  Had there been only two or three I believe his numbers would have been bigger.  But the RNC purposely IMO allowed there to be that many candidates to dilute the effect of a true Reagan style Conservative being in the field.

See the dirty little secret is that it wasn't just the DNC that doesn't want to see someone in the mold of Ronald Reagan or Barry Goldwater take the Presidency ever again...it's the RNC as well.  When Reagan won he had to win against his own party too...in an era way before Fox News.

Lets remember the term "Voodoo Economics" wasn't coined by the Dems...that's what Poppy Bush called Reagan's economic plan in the 1980 election during one of the debates. 

[txradioguy]

Someone said Trump lied about Cruz. Is that the example of 'civilized conversation about politics' to which you are referring?

Oh I dunno maybe all of the previous pages before you decided to show back up and make this a Trump v Cruz mud fight.

[roamer_1]

Someone said Trump lied about Cruz. Is that the example of 'civilized conversation about politics' to which you are referring?

Trump did lie about Cruz. And everything else. He's a habitual liar.
I will renew my challenge once again. Just find me 10 minutes of any Trump stump speech that doesn't contain a lie. So far, no one has met that challenge. Because they can't. He lies constantly.

[RoosGirl]

It was an extremely diluted field this time around.  16 candidates.  Had there been only two or three I believe his numbers would have been bigger.  But the RNC purposely IMO allowed there to be that many candidates to dilute the effect of a true Reagan style Conservative being in the field.

See the dirty little secret is that it wasn't just the DNC that doesn't want to see someone in the mold of Ronald Reagan or Barry Goldwater take the Presidency ever again...it's the RNC as well.  When Reagan won he had to win against his own party too...in an era way before Fox News.

Lets remember the term "Voodoo Economics" wasn't coined by the Dems...that's what Poppy Bush called Reagan's economic plan in the 1980 election during one of the debates.

Oh, the RNC hated a conservative Ted Cruz that wouldn't fall in line with Republican "leadership", and I believe they thought that Trump would never win.  They would have rather Hillary win than a guy they hated, so arranged for the guy they thought wouldn't win to go up against her.

[Cyber Liberty]

True, but Cruz had a chance at the Convention until the Priebus/Trump wing finagled him out.

One can make the case that Priebus and Trump got away with that because they had the strength of numbers of Delegates on the floor.  Either way it was a "deal with the Devil" because those two hated each other, still do as far as I can see.