Author Topic: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States  (Read 56880 times)

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Offline edpc

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It gets lost in the story because of what happened and who did it, but Antifa is the real problem. They never have rallies or demonstrations to bring attention to an issue. Their sole purpose is to disrupt, provoke, and incite at events.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline kevindavis

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According to Charles Gasparino, a source tells him Bannon is a goner. Steve Deace retweeted the quote.

I've wondered if Bannon was counseling Trump on this, and other staffers convinced him Bannon was wrong---and that he should make a new statement.


If true, look for Breitbart to go after Trump.
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Offline edpc

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The first statement was an infield hit. Today he hit one over the center field fence.

Honestly, my only problem with the first statement was the departure into employment numbers. I found that irrelevant, distracting, and tone deaf to the situation.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Wars are fought for economic reasons. That there is nothing in the USC about seceding reserves the right.

Amendment 10:

 :shrug:

Tell it to people in the 1860's. They fought a war over it. The South lost.

Try it again and the same thing will happen.  :seeya:


Offline TomSea

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Incorrect on all counts. An archive news article search shows it going back even further.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alt-right&safe=off&biw=1920&bih=940&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2014%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F2015&tbm=nws

At that, in 2015, Breitbart even compared it to Satanism. This was after Bannon had taken editorial control over Breitbart. So before it was advantageous to use them, his publication was calling it satanic.

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/10/31/when-satanism-met-the-internet/

To me, the term is so diluted, it's pretty meaningless. I do see Aligncare's point. .

Per Front Page Mag:
Quote
Some Observations From the Man Who Created Alt-Right
An intellectual movement that Democrats want to use to smear Breitbart and Trump.
August 30, 2016
Paul Gottfried
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Editor’s note: Frontpage’s recent article by Matthew Vadum, The Alt-Right is Coming! Hillary Shrieks, exposed the dishonest nature of Hillary’s and the Left’s slanderous attacks on Trump, Breitbart and the “Alt-Right,” revealing that the situation is far more complicated than their smear campaign would suggest. For instance, Clinton and leftists blame individuals such Richard Spencer for the Alt-Right, but it was Dr. Paul Gottfried, Professor Emeritus of Humanities at Elizabethtown College, who actually invented the term for the movement. Below we are publishing Gottfried’s account of the narrative to help clarify matters for our readers.

Last week I was reminded by a call from Associated Press that I had invented the term “Alternative Right.” When I asked about how I had accomplished that, the woman on the other end of the phone referred to a speech I had given in November 2008 in which I urged the creation of an “Alternative Right.” The same ...  More: https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/263988/some-observations-man-who-created-alt-right-paul-gottfried

Yet, almost nowhere are folks going to say Gottfried should get the credit for the term.

Offline dfwgator

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It gets lost in the story because of what happened and who did it, but Antifa is the real problem. They never have rallies or demonstrations to bring attention to an issue. Their sole purpose is to disrupt, provoke, and incite at events.

The vast majority of the sheeple don't even know that Antifas even exist.

Offline Applewood

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I posted this on another thread. History of the term alt right:


I wonder if anyone ever stopped to consider that the term alt right wasn't in use anywhere in the media in 2015 and early 2016? And that originally, alternative right was a term used by Steve Bannon to describe a new breed of young republican as apposed to the old guard.

It had nothing to do with race until the left appropriated it to mean anything from racist to anti Semitic, nationalist, white supremacist etc.


And republicans just meekly accept the theft of language to be used by the left as a political bludgeon. Welcome to PC hell, folks.

If I remember my history correctly (probably not), the KKK was once comprised of Democrats.  The Democrats managed to distance themselves from the present day Klan.  So now it seems the Klan and others like them are trying to rebrand as Republicans and/or conservatives.  That must be the story perpetrated by lefty media such as MSNBC because I have liberal friends who are fans of MSNBC and others like them and they keep telling me that these Klan/neo-Nazi/white supremacist groups are conservative or Republican.  It's exhausting to try to explain to my loved ones that they are being fed a line of BS by dishonest lefty media.  These hateful people do not represent me anymore than BLM represents every black person.

Offline ABX

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If I remember my history correctly (probably not), the KKK was once comprised of Democrats.  The Democrats managed to distance themselves from the present day Klan.  So now it seems the Klan and others like them are trying to rebrand as Republicans and/or conservatives.  That must be the story perpetrated by lefty media such as MSNBC because I have liberal friends who are fans of MSNBC and others like them and they keep telling me that these Klan/neo-Nazi/white supremacist groups are conservative or Republican.  It's exhausting to try to explain to my loved ones that they are being fed a line of BS by dishonest lefty media.  These hateful people do not represent me anymore than BLM represents every black person.

And Buckley in the 60s successfully purged the KKK/Neo-Confederate/WN types from the Republican party.

I do find the timing interesting, if not simply coincidence, that when Buckley died in 2008 we started seeing the resurgence of some of these types of groups latching on to the right, and as one pointed out upthread, the root of 'alt-right' can be traced to 2008.

At that, it almost seems the death of Buckley was a symbolic point that saw a major shift in the Republican party and those speaking for us. Kind of like it seemed the Clinton Impeachment changed how Democrats acted.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 01:30:02 PM by AbaraXas »

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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And Buckley in the 60s successfully purged the KKK/Neo-Confederate/WN types from the Republican party.

I do find the timing interesting, if not simply coincidence, that when Buckley died in 2008 we started seeing the resurgence of some of these types of groups latching on to the right, and as one pointed out upthread, the root of 'alt-right' can be traced to 2008.

I can remember when "open borders" was just the default conservative position.

I also remember when free trade was a conservative position as well.

Then they let the rubes in.

Offline dfwgator

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I can remember when "open borders" was just the default conservative position.

I also remember when free trade was a conservative position as well.

Then they let the rubes in.

It's also when the Democratic Party went way to the Left.

Offline TomSea

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I want to read what Buckley did; respectfully, I'm not just going to take at face value all that is said in this forum.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/13/william-f-buckley-civil-rights-215129

Quote
National Review’s opposition to federal civil rights legislation put it at odds not only with self-proclaimed “modern Republicans” such as Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon. (In 1957, years before he adopted the southern strategy, Nixon was one of the highest-profile defenders of civil rights in the Republican Party). But it also put him at odds with conservative Republicans, whom the magazine supported editorially, such as Senate Minority Leader William Knowland, the 1957 Civil Rights bill’s primary sponsor.

Offline dfwgator

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I can remember when "open borders" was just the default conservative position.

I also remember when free trade was a conservative position as well.

Then they let the rubes in.

Then we saw the consequences of those positions.

Offline Smokin Joe

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I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.
States could choose to become part of the Confederacy or not. No one put a gun to their heads.

At its core, forced manumission was an economic sanction. The Northerners who ran the shipping companies which imported the slaves had made their money already. Nothing like selling a product and passing a law against it.
Even worse was the idea of literally dumping a huge population of people who had no education on a region, but some interests have been exploiting that group ever since.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline kevindavis

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And Buckley in the 60s successfully purged the KKK/Neo-Confederate/WN types from the Republican party.

I do find the timing interesting, if not simply coincidence, that when Buckley died in 2008 we started seeing the resurgence of some of these types of groups latching on to the right, and as one pointed out upthread, the root of 'alt-right' can be traced to 2008.

At that, it almost seems the death of Buckley was a symbolic point that saw a major shift in the Republican party and those speaking for us. Kind of like it seemed the Clinton Impeachment changed how Democrats acted.


I think it was after the 04 elections when the root of 'alt-right' started to latch on. Remember the Minutemen Group?
"If we die, we want people to accept it. We're in a risky business, and we hope that if anything happens to us it will not delay the program. The conquest of space is worth the risk of life."

Gus Grissom

Offline edpc

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I want to read what Buckley did; respectfully, I'm not just going to take at face value all that is said in this forum.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/13/william-f-buckley-civil-rights-215129

I don't know about the 'southern strategy' for Nixon.  Wallace won 5 states in 1968.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline Smokin Joe

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If I remember my history correctly (probably not), the KKK was once comprised of Democrats. 
Of course it was. After the War, the only Republicans down South were invaders. That old Klan was the shadow government which ran what the Yankees, Carpetbaggers, and Scalywags did not.
Quote
The Democrats managed to distance themselves from the present day Klan. 
As has been pointed out, the Klan just after the War was a vigilante group, but not so much a 'hate' group. That part starts in the 1900s. Similarly, the Democrat Party changed to a largely Marxist organization in the 1960s with the advent of The New Left (if the 1930s didn't foreshadow that).
Quote
So now it seems the Klan and others like them are trying to rebrand as Republicans and/or conservatives.
They aren't Marxists, and in the world of media driven false dichotomies, that leaves the GOP. The media have been calling Republicans Nazis (recall "BushHitler" memes?), perhaps because the 'Nazis' are an enemy the Marxists can understand.
Quote
  That must be the story perpetrated by lefty media such as MSNBC because I have liberal friends who are fans of MSNBC and others like them and they keep telling me that these Klan/neo-Nazi/white supremacist groups are conservative or Republican.
  The media have been trying (along with groups like the SPLC) to lump everyone from the Young Republicans to the NRA to Right to Life folks and Stormfront all together in a tidy little package to hate for a very long time. It was Federal 'investigation' that led to the Ruby Ridge incident when Randy Weaver would not act as an informant on his separatist neighbors (GHWB), despite entrapment over gun charges being used as leverage by the Feds. The whole incident on the ridge was over charges of "Failure to appear" on a warrant where the date had been moved up and Weaver was notified of a different date. 
The attempt to conflate people who love Jesus (and even Jews) who own firearms, revere the Constitution, believe in the Rule of Law, and the Bill of Rights with the KKK and NeoNazis has been going on a long time, but so has the media foisted ignorance of the groups involved, smeared with disinformation campaigns by the media to remove the very great distinctions.
Quote
  It's exhausting to try to explain to my loved ones that they are being fed a line of BS by dishonest lefty media.  These hateful people do not represent me anymore than BLM represents every black person.
Point out to your relatives the spectrum on the Left from the Communists to Antifa to BLM to PETA and the Sierra Club (I know, it's hard to find a Leftist group who aren't Communists at their core) and ask them if they think everyone over there shares anything but a disdain for the Constitution and the Rule of Law.  The media present two dimensional false dichotomies for a reason. People are more complicated than that.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 02:31:37 PM by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis



Offline EasyAce

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I want to read what Buckley did; respectfully, I'm not just going to take at face value all that is said in this forum.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/13/william-f-buckley-civil-rights-215129

From the very article from which you quoted:

Quote
As he contemplated the merits of the franchise and to whom to extend it, Buckley had restated views he
had advanced while a student at Millbrook, his preparatory school. In a term paper he had written for his
headmaster, Buckley maintained that uneducated voters might be manipulated by demagogues into surrendering
some of their freedom in exchange for benefits raised through taxation of the citizenry. In staking out this position,
Buckley was taking his place in a long line of conservative theorists beginning as far back as Aristotle, who saw
in such democratic practices the roots of tyranny.

It was these intellectual currents that turned Buckley away from the Southern politicians of the time—and toward
his reversal on civil rights.

At this time, a political transformation was taking place in the South, as the “old Bourbons,” with which he and his
southern-rooted family identified, were being displaced in governors’ and congressional offices by a “new breed”
of politicians that Buckley termed “welfare populists.” Whereas the Bourbons shunned harsher racial rhetoric and
sought to break up the Ku Klux Klan, their successors practiced a more guttural and violent form of politics,
especially crafted to crush, by whatever means, the aspirations of African-Americans in the region.

The Buckleys had ample experience with such politicians before and had come to treat them with contempt. Buckley’s
uncle vividly recalled Buckley’s grandfather, John Buckley, the sheriff of Duval County, Texas, going into tirades
against the “white trash of the town.” The uncle held them directly responsible for the voter fraud and intimidation
of Mexican-Americans that resulted in the sheriff’s defeat at the polls.

By 1963, Buckley was voicing outrage at Southern populists like Alabama Governor George C. Wallace on two
grounds: their agitation for greater federal intervention in the economy (a no-no among movement conservatives)
and their refusal to extend the benefits of such largesse to African-Americans. It may have been his disdain for
these kind of ideologically impure politicians that hastened Buckley’s eventual 180 on federal intervention. Looking
back on the period in 2004, Buckley told Time magazine, “I once believed we could evolve our way up from Jim
Crow. I was wrong. Federal intervention was necessary.”

Buckley’s religious concerns rose up to meet his political ones. Privately, he was beginning to harbor doubts about
legal segregation, a practice he had accepted without question his entire life. Early in 1963, he wrote his mother,
the most religious person he knew, inquiring how she could “reconcile Christian fraternity” with “the separation of
the races.” Aloise Buckley responded that she had gone to church and prayed for humility and wisdom from the
Holy Spirit and that she would answer his question as the inspiration came to her.

That May, racial tensions mounted in Birmingham, Alabama, when Commission of Public Safety Bull Connor ordered
hoses, nightsticks and dogs turned on young demonstrators. During these months, Buckley remained on an intellectual
and emotional seesaw that still tilted southward. He wrote that the police had no alternative but to impose order
and that the South could do without “massive infusions of northern moralism.” Yet he juxtaposed these statements
with calls on Southerners to respect the right of people to demonstrate, lest they ease over into the “hands of the
federal government … a greater and greater role in the revolution of Southern affairs.”

The Inside Story of William F. Buckley, Jr.'s Crusade Against the John Birch Society
Anatomy of a Takedown: William F. Buckley, Jr. vs. George Wallace


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Smokin Joe

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:shrug:

Tell it to people in the 1860's. They fought a war over it. The South lost.

Try it again and the same thing will happen.  :seeya:
You are being disingenuous. You think that slavery wasn't an economic issue?

Not only did slaves represent a huge investment, but they made both cotton and tobacco agriculture work.

Those were the big cash crops that drove the Southern economy, and were ready export crops. In other words, not only the economy of the South, but a great deal of the export economy depended on those hands picking cotton or stripping tobacco.
That economy was great enough the North threatened it, then seized it by force of arms when it threatened to go away.

Otherwise, the Yankees had a slave-free country just by letting go. 

Tell farmers today you are going to take away their tractors and see if they won't shoot your ass to keep them.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Silver Pines

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FR already is.

https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3577045/posts

@AbaraXas

Wow.  One of them pointed out his new tag line condemning 5 Democratic presidents----Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump.

I doubt JimRob will zot anyone.  He likely realizes now that he has to hang onto every donor he has.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Tell farmers today you are going to take away their tractors and see if they won't shoot your ass to keep them.

 :huh?:

Who wants to take away farmer's tractors? I wouldn't support that in any circumstance.

Offline edpc

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FR already is.

https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3577045/posts

I see the 'it was a setup by Soros' crowd is present there.   For a group of people that decry victimhood so much, they sure spend a lot of time blaming that old man for their woes.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline ABX

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I see the 'it was a setup by Soros' crowd is present there.   For a group of people that decry victimhood so much, they sure spend a lot of time blaming that old man for their woes.

It is hilarious how the completely try to deny that there could be anyone negative on the side they like (and if they are it was an 'obvious plant'), yet there are other posts from FReepers who said they attended.