Author Topic: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood  (Read 5822 times)

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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2017, 05:47:54 pm »
https://morningconsult.com/2015/11/24/bernie-sanders-is-the-most-popular-senator-in-america/

November 24, 2015

Quote
Sen. Susan Collins is the most popular Republican in the Senate; 78 percent of the 654 registered Maine voters interviewed said they approve of her job performance, while just 16 percent disapprove. Maine voters give Sen. Angus King (I) a 65 percent approval rating.

She is up for re-election in 2020

Murkowski wins even when the right defeats her in the GOP primary.

What a party.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2017, 06:01:01 pm »
It has nothing to do with religion.   When is that magic moment when a fetus becomes viable?   Can you identify it?

It's after the first trimester.  During at least the first trimester a woman should have an unfettered right to choose abortion.   I'm not saying she should exercise that right.  If she were my daughter, I'd sure urge her to do the right thing.  But the State's diktat cannot deprive her of her right to determine her future for herself.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2017, 06:04:52 pm »
I'm assuming you are defending that "right" regardless of whether or not the woman was raped.  If so:

She did make a choice -- to have sex without ensuring that she couldn't become pregnant.  Lots of decisions we make come with potential consequences with which we are stuck if they happen to come about.  She's not being forced to bear a baby by anyone other than Mother Nature.


You're making a moral argument.  If it were my daughter I'd be making that same moral argument.  If she's a person of faith, her pastor may be making that same moral argument. 

But the State?   NO.   

 
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2017, 06:07:07 pm »
It's after the first trimester.  During at least the first trimester a woman should have an unfettered right to choose abortion.   I'm not saying she should exercise that right.  If she were my daughter, I'd sure urge her to do the right thing.  But the State's diktat cannot deprive her of her right to determine her future for herself.

Nice libertarian view.  Maybe the state shouldn't make it illegal to rob banks if you really, really need the money.

Actually, I've been pregnant and my 'fetus' that I chose to call 'Sandra' was viable immediately.  She made herself known to me before she was a blip on a sonogram.  She existed as a person because I knew her in my mind and heart.

I would never have murdered her.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2017, 06:13:01 pm »
Nice libertarian view.  Maybe the state shouldn't make it illegal to rob banks if you really, really need the money.

Actually, I've been pregnant and my 'fetus' that I chose to call 'Sandra' was viable immediately.  She made herself known to me before she was a blip on a sonogram.  She existed as a person because I knew her in my mind and heart.

I would never have murdered her.

I commend you, Emjay.  I'm sure your daughter has been a source of great joy to you.   
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HonestJohn

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2017, 06:53:54 pm »
It has nothing to do with religion.   When is that magic moment when a fetus becomes viable?   Can you identify it?

My view is that the viability point is when medical science can successfully save the child and incubate it to term.

As time passes, this point gets earlier and earlier during pregnancy.

When artificial wombs are developed, this whole issue will likely become moot.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 06:58:41 pm by HonestJohn »

HonestJohn

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2017, 06:55:40 pm »
https://morningconsult.com/2015/11/24/bernie-sanders-is-the-most-popular-senator-in-america/

November 24, 2015

She is up for re-election in 2020

Murkowski wins even when the right defeats her in the GOP primary.

What a party.

It shows a party whose primary voters are so far out of step with the rest of the Alaskan voting population that a write-in can win over against their choice... and a Democrat.

HonestJohn

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2017, 06:57:53 pm »
Nice libertarian view.  Maybe the state shouldn't make it illegal to rob banks if you really, really need the money.

Actually, I've been pregnant and my 'fetus' that I chose to call 'Sandra' was viable immediately.  She made herself known to me before she was a blip on a sonogram.  She existed as a person because I knew her in my mind and heart.

I would never have murdered her.

You do realize that courts tend to let 'criminals' go with very light sentences (if at all) when the crime is committed due to necessity.

Such as a starving man stealing a loaf of bread.

Offline Emjay

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2017, 07:17:17 pm »
I commend you, Emjay.  I'm sure your daughter has been a source of great joy to you.

Enormous joy and an incredible source of worry.  I still see her every day.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2017, 07:23:21 pm »
It's not that simple.  No question about it - like you, I consider abortion to be morally wrong.  The issue is what role the State should play in forcing women to conform to religious norms.  Lots of things that are morally wrong aren't proscribed by the State.   The uncomfortable reality is that a woman has to go through nine months of profound physical changes and pain.  It is a decision that she has to make for herself - with the help of her partner, family, spiritual adviser and God.   It cannot be forced upon her by the government.  THAT is the liberty she possesses - she needs to be free to make that decision based on her own values and conscience - not the religious diktat of the State.

Why are you defending the forcible ending of a life?  I know you are a good person. 

Murder is an issue for the state... absolutely.  So whether the victim is in the womb or out of it, you cannot justify making it only a moral issue and not a legal issue... because it is both.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2017, 11:05:01 pm »
It's not that simple.  No question about it - like you, I consider abortion to be morally wrong.  The issue is what role the State should play in forcing women to conform to religious norms.  Lots of things that are morally wrong aren't proscribed by the State.   The uncomfortable reality is that a woman has to go through nine months of profound physical changes and pain.  It is a decision that she has to make for herself - with the help of her partner, family, spiritual adviser and God.   It cannot be forced upon her by the government.  THAT is the liberty she possesses - she needs to be free to make that decision based on her own values and conscience - not the religious diktat of the State.
'Conform to religious norms'?  Killing a baby has nothing to do with 'religous norm'. 

Yes, we do indeed have laws that protect people from killing other people in this country. 
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2017, 01:22:17 am »
Why are you defending the forcible ending of a life?  I know you are a good person. 

Murder is an issue for the state... absolutely.  So whether the victim is in the womb or out of it, you cannot justify making it only a moral issue and not a legal issue... because it is both.

I respect you, Emjay, so you deserve a serious response.   I'll try. 

I've never defended abortion.  I've defended the right of a woman to decide for herself,  whether and when to raise a family.  Most women I know who've had abortions have gone on to have kids in later years, kids they loved, kids that wouldn't have existed if the woman had had a child years before, when she didn't have the support of a partner or the security of a career.   

I don't know what God wants of us.   I think He wants us to be decent, compassionate people.   I think He wants us to be good parents.   I think most of us are,  even if some of us felt the pain of exercising that freedom the feminists insist is a woman's right.

I think the abortion issue polarizes this nation like no other.   It is the root of the blue/red divide, the one issue that a Democrat can NEVER break ranks with, and precious few Republicans.  It's the reason, well, that we seem to hate each other.

I think the victims of that polarization are the babies themselves.   Reconciliation on this issue will save lives,  because once the right is safe and legal,  there can be consensus on the most important part - that it be rare.   That it be rendered unnecessary.  My position on abortion is predicated on the belief that reconciliation will ultimately save more lives than petitioning the state to impose its moral will on what is fundamentally a question of conscience,  and of extraordinarily private concern.

The left wants to subsidize birth control, and the right wants to provide moral support.   Once the choice right is not subject to criminalization,  the two sides can unite on a strategy that can strengthen families.   Moral war claims casualties.    I think there's a better way.     

       
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 01:26:42 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline thackney

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2017, 11:58:23 am »
I respect you, Emjay, so you deserve a serious response.   I'll try. 

I've never defended abortion.  I've defended the right of a woman to decide for herself,  whether and when to raise a family.  Most women I know who've had abortions have gone on to have kids in later years, kids they loved, kids that wouldn't have existed if the woman had had a child years before, when she didn't have the support of a partner or the security of a career.   

I don't know what God wants of us.   I think He wants us to be decent, compassionate people.   I think He wants us to be good parents.   I think most of us are,  even if some of us felt the pain of exercising that freedom the feminists insist is a woman's right.

I think the abortion issue polarizes this nation like no other.   It is the root of the blue/red divide, the one issue that a Democrat can NEVER break ranks with, and precious few Republicans.  It's the reason, well, that we seem to hate each other.

I think the victims of that polarization are the babies themselves.   Reconciliation on this issue will save lives,  because once the right is safe and legal,  there can be consensus on the most important part - that it be rare.   That it be rendered unnecessary.  My position on abortion is predicated on the belief that reconciliation will ultimately save more lives than petitioning the state to impose its moral will on what is fundamentally a question of conscience,  and of extraordinarily private concern.

The left wants to subsidize birth control, and the right wants to provide moral support.   Once the choice right is not subject to criminalization,  the two sides can unite on a strategy that can strengthen families.   Moral war claims casualties.    I think there's a better way.

That is not a justification for taking another life.  This country has many, many families wanting to adopt.  Many willing to pay every medical bill and associated cost with carrying the pregnancy to term as well.

That is not the issue for abortion.  All to often, it is only the inconvenience of carrying the baby to term.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2017, 12:11:25 pm »
That is not a justification for taking another life.  This country has many, many families wanting to adopt.  Many willing to pay every medical bill and associated cost with carrying the pregnancy to term as well.

That is not the issue for abortion.  All to often, it is only the inconvenience of carrying the baby to term.

Adoption is certainly a better alternative than abortion.   I applaud those pro-lifers whose mission is focused on adoption alternatives, and support for women in crisis pregnancies.   

The very best alternative is contraception.   
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2017, 01:27:53 am »

The left wants to subsidize birth control, and the right wants to provide moral support.   Once the choice right is not subject to criminalization,  the two sides can unite on a strategy that can strengthen families.   Moral war claims casualties.    I think there's a better way.     

     

You wrote a thoughtful piece and I didn't mean to ignore it but we have different viewpoints.

At one time birth control was a matter of timing and was ineffective.  There is no excuse now for unwanted pregnancies and I honestly think people are being careless in that regard because, oh, well, I can always get an abortion.

You cited instances where women who'd had abortions went on to have other children and nice families but where is that little soul that should have been a part of the family?

A close family member had an abortion way back when they were not legal.  It was easy enough... just claim excessive bleeding or some other problem and most doctors would do a D&C on you.

In fact, I think it ruined her life.  She never married and never had children.  She would have been a great mother and that college degree she chose over a child never provided that much satisfaction for her.

I understand your reluctance to let the government have control over any aspect of our lives but we have to let them have control over crimes or we have anarchy.  I would never do it by penalizing the women ... they will be penalized now or later.  But the doctors and the abortion mills need to go.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2017, 12:25:04 pm »
You wrote a thoughtful piece and I didn't mean to ignore it but we have different viewpoints.

At one time birth control was a matter of timing and was ineffective.  There is no excuse now for unwanted pregnancies and I honestly think people are being careless in that regard because, oh, well, I can always get an abortion.

You cited instances where women who'd had abortions went on to have other children and nice families but where is that little soul that should have been a part of the family?

A close family member had an abortion way back when they were not legal.  It was easy enough... just claim excessive bleeding or some other problem and most doctors would do a D&C on you.

In fact, I think it ruined her life.  She never married and never had children.  She would have been a great mother and that college degree she chose over a child never provided that much satisfaction for her.

I understand your reluctance to let the government have control over any aspect of our lives but we have to let them have control over crimes or we have anarchy.  I would never do it by penalizing the women ... they will be penalized now or later.  But the doctors and the abortion mills need to go.

Emjay, we may have different viewpoints, but I think we both want the same thing -  for abortion to be rare and unnecessary.   

I think we probably differ in how we view the "typical" situation where a woman ends up choosing abortion.   Birth control does fail, and I don't think most women are careless because, well, there's always abortion.   Women choose abortion, it seems to me,  because they lack the support of a partner or the security of a career.  While I don't disagree that abstinence is the cure for either, in the real world women find themselves in unexpected situations and don't want or feel ready for the responsibility.   There's no question that modern culture plays a role - men who fifty years ago would marry the woman they've knocked up now urge the woman to "take care of it".   

Part of my thinking on the subject comes from my own experience.   Mrs. Jazz and I were married about three years when she became pregnant.  We were overjoyed, and then devastated when she miscarried.   But a year or so later she became pregnant again, and my son is the thing on this earth that I'm most proud of.   But he never would have existed had my wife not miscarried.   So I don't know what God wants of us, and I am reluctant to judge others by labeling the tough, agonizing decisions they've made as "crimes" or "murder", as too many pro-lifers tend to do.   Having the haunting guilt of a lost child is enough punishment;  I wish every woman the joy of motherhood under circumstances where she and her partner can, years later, beam with pride and accomplishment at a job well done.       
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2017, 12:37:23 pm »
Planned Parenthood has it's connections to racism via Margaret Sanger; she called some races like "weeds", even today, their abortion mills are predominantly in minority areas. A black child is 4 times more likely to be aborted than a white child. Good to see our president take on this racist organization, the Senate couldn't get it together because of a few individuals including McCain.

Offline thackney

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2017, 12:40:33 pm »
Emjay, we may have different viewpoints, but I think we both want the same thing -  for abortion to be rare and unnecessary.   

I think we probably differ in how we view the "typical" situation where a woman ends up choosing abortion.   Birth control does fail, and I don't think most women are careless because, well, there's always abortion.   Women choose abortion, it seems to me,  because they lack the support of a partner or the security of a career.  While I don't disagree that abstinence is the cure for either, in the real world women find themselves in unexpected situations and don't want or feel ready for the responsibility.   There's no question that modern culture plays a role - men who fifty years ago would marry the woman they've knocked up now urge the woman to "take care of it"...

REASONS GIVEN FOR ABORTIONS: AGI SURVEY, 2000-2001 [5]
reason or situation.................................number..............% of abortions
not using contraception........................4,957...........46.40
forced to have relations.............................~64..............0.6
using contraception.................................5,726............53.60
...contraceptive failed despite proper use....~1,808.........16.9

More info at:
Reasons given for having abortions in the United States
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
last updated 18 January 2016
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 12:41:27 pm by thackney »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2017, 01:09:37 pm »


I don't know what God wants of us. 
     
Why not read this to find out?  https://www.bible.com/
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2017, 01:18:40 pm »
My view is that the viability point is when medical science can successfully save the child and incubate it to term.

As time passes, this point gets earlier and earlier during pregnancy.

When artificial wombs are developed, this whole issue will likely become moot.

@HonestJohn
The fallacy of that argument is that many of us who have been born encounter times in our lives where we cannot survive on our own strength.

Should that be the test of whether its ok to suck a persons brains out and chop them up into pieces for the body parts company?

Life begins at conception.  Treat that life like any other life.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2017, 01:38:32 pm »

Life begins at conception.  Treat that life like any other life.

So jail a mother who aborts for murder?   
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2017, 01:50:00 pm »
So jail a mother who aborts for murder?

Would you jail her if she killed her 3 yr old child?

Again, that baby is a life.   Treat the baby as you would any other human life.   If the baby represents a threat to the mothers life then the doctors and parents need to weigh the decision.   

If its for any other reason like convenience or "I didn't want a baby now" then its murder.   

55 million babies have been murdered since Roe v Wade.  Think about that for a second.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Oceander

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2017, 01:51:56 pm »
So jail a mother who aborts for murder?   

Of course.  Back to the kitchen with bare feet and a head wrap.  That's the underlying mentality, all the virtue-signaling notwithstanding. 

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2017, 01:55:25 pm »
Of course.  Back to the kitchen with bare feet and a head wrap.  That's the underlying mentality, all the virtue-signaling notwithstanding.

@Oceander
You are such an expert on what other people think and who they worship.  Man that law school must be really comprehensive. 

The vast majority of unwanted pregnancies can be avoided with the proper use of birth control or GASP!!!!  abstinence.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Collins, Murkowski: We Sunk Skinny Repeal to Protect Planned Parenthood
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2017, 01:58:50 pm »
So jail a mother who aborts for murder?

Equal treatment under the law?  Do family members get special exemptions under other murder cases?

The major disconnect is too many people pretend it isn't a life being ended.  But it is recognized as such under US Law.

18 U.S. Code ยง 1841 - Protection of unborn children
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1841

Sherman man charged with capital murder in death of unborn child
http://www.heralddemocrat.com/news/20170726/sherman-man-charged-with-capital-murder-in-death-of-unborn-child

Bigamist couple indicted in Madison County slayings of husband's 2nd wife, children, relatives
http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2017/08/bigamist_murder_madison_county.html

Quote
The five people killed on Aug. 4, 2015 at 215 St. Clair Lane are:

Kristen Smallwood Henderson, 35, who was nine months pregnant with Christopher Henderson's child;
The couple's unborn child, Loryn Brooke Smallwood...

2 face murder, feticide charges in 2016 death of pregnant woman in Algiers
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/08/pregnant_woman_murder_arrest.html

Springfield man accused of shooting pregnant woman now charged with double murder
http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/crime/2017/08/04/springfield-man-accused-shooting-pregnant-woman-now-charged-double-murder/541697001/

Seems to me to be a rather common place for murder charges in the death of the unborn.  It is the reason some many of us have such a huge problem with abortion.  It is murder of the innocent.  Failure to comprehend that is the reason for the disagreement.  But we have a well established legal precedent with many, many cases.
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