Senate Democrats set conditions for tax reform

[txradioguy]

NOW your talking but THEY prefer having the ability to engage in social engineering at will!

And that's why IMO...we need to vote their asses out and ignore the ones within our own party who tell us we have to go along with whatever the RINO's propose because "it's our only option".

[Jazzhead]

The government doesn't create jobs or wealth.  They can set the conditions for it so that business owners and citizens in the private sector can make the most of what they have or don't have...but as time and history has proven, the economy can flourish despite the Government's action or in some cases inaction.

And why is that?  Because of the individual, not because of the Government.

You act like any money, any wealth a person or a business has is because of the Government.  That's simply not true.

I agree (although don't discount the reality that millions make their living helping folks navigate the morass of government rules and regulations).

But "setting the conditions" for the creation of jobs and wealth includes effective tax policy.  And there are choices to be made, even among tax reform proposals proffered by conservatives.    Mike Lee's approach,  which reflects his pro-family bias by doubling tax credits for children,  won't create jobs.  Indeed, it will reduce the government's revenues so much that tax reforms that WILL create jobs and growth are crowded out. 

Corporations create jobs,  and at the present time it is corporate tax rates that are out of whack with the rest of the world, discouraging investment in plants and jobs here.   Tax incentives that allow U.S. corporations to bring back the trillions they've stashed overseas will also lead directly to jobs and domestic growth. 

As for individual tax relief,  it would be great to flatten rates by curbing certain deductions,  but the impact on the deficit will necessarily get in the way.   Here, the collapse of the ACA reforms is a crying shame, since the block-granting of Medicaid would have freed up billions for tax relief for ordinary Americans.   That's why the Congress wanted to move on the ACA first - that's where the potential spending relief lies.   Now,  I think the best bang for the buck is corporate tax relief, paid for if necessary by raising the top income rate brackets on the rich, or (my preference) raising tariffs.       

[txradioguy]

Mike Lee's approach,  which reflects his pro-family bias by doubling tax credits for children,  won't create jobs.  Indeed, it will reduce the government's revenues so much that tax reforms that WILL create jobs and growth are crowded out. 

*sigh* it looks like it's time to re-post "I am pencil" to explain things to you.

More money back in the pockets of families means more for them to spend...whether it's on school supplies...clothes...food vacations whatever.

Where ever that money is spent by that family there is at least one business that will benefit from the extra profit.  They may use that to expand to add another store, hire more employees or simply lower prices allowing people to buy more goods from their store in general.

This in turn increases the tax revenues both business and sales that come into the city, county and state of which the Federal government will get a bigger share increasing their revenue from taxes.

A rising tide lifts all boats.  Not surprised you can't see that.

There is nothing wrong with being pro family either.  The fact you think it's a bad thing to be pro family is just your liberal roots peeking out again and allowing you to spew Liberal talking points and hate on a real Conservative in Washington.

[Bigun]

And that's why IMO...we need to vote their asses out and ignore the ones within our own party who tell us we have to go along with whatever the RINO's propose because "it's our only option".

What's needed is to PERMANENTLY take away their ability to pick winners and losers via the tax code and until that is done nothing much will change!

[txradioguy]

What's needed is to PERMANENTLY take away their ability to pick winners and losers via the tax code and until that is done nothing much will change!

I've been in favor of a flat tax for awhile.  And then have a requirement that to raise the income tax above the set level it needs approval from 2/3rds of the States or it doesn't get raised.

[Bigun]

I've been in favor of a flat tax for awhile.  And then have a requirement that to raise the income tax above the set level it needs approval from 2/3rds of the States or it doesn't get raised.

If you are talking about a flat rate income tax it won't work!  Has to have the IRS to function!  We need to go back to the form of taxation our founders universally endorsed!  Taxes on articles of consumption only!  A point of retail sale only sales tax!

[txradioguy]

If you are talking about a flat rate income tax it won't work!  Has to have the IRS to function!  We need to go back to the form of taxation our founders universally endorsed!  Taxes on articles of consumption only!  A point of retail sale only sales tax!

We'll have to agree to disagree on how to get the tax thing fixed.  Flat tax seems the easiest to me that way everyone pays in with one rate and the class warfare thing goes away.  Too much political leeway with a consumption tax and you might find people returning to a barter system or making things themselves to avoid the tax and waiting way longer to replace things that need to be bought in order to delay paying a consumption or sales tax.  YOu see it a lot in places like Germany where they have a VAT tax of 19%.

[RoosGirl]

*sigh* it looks like it's time to re-post "I am pencil" to explain things to you.

More money back in the pockets of families means more for them to spend...whether it's on school supplies...clothes...food vacations whatever.

Where ever that money is spent by that family there is at least one business that will benefit from the extra profit.  They may use that to expand to add another store, hire more employees or simply lower prices allowing people to buy more goods from their store in general.

This in turn increases the tax revenues both business and sales that come into the city, county and state of which the Federal government will get a bigger share increasing their revenue from taxes.

A rising tide lifts all boats.  Not surprised you can't see that.

There is nothing wrong with being pro family either.  The fact you think it's a bad thing to be pro family is just your liberal roots peeking out again and allowing you to spew Liberal talking points and hate on a real Conservative in Washington.

You're trying to reason with the guy that "despises social conservatives".  Something that benefits families is of no interest to him.

[Jazzhead]

*sigh* it looks like it's time to re-post "I am pencil" to explain things to you.

More money back in the pockets of families means more for them to spend...whether it's on school supplies...clothes...food vacations whatever.

Where ever that money is spent by that family there is at least one business that will benefit from the extra profit.  They may use that to expand to add another store, hire more employees or simply lower prices allowing people to buy more goods from their store in general.

This in turn increases the tax revenues both business and sales that come into the city, county and state of which the Federal government will get a bigger share increasing their revenue from taxes.

A rising tide lifts all boats.  Not surprised you can't see that.

There is nothing wrong with being pro family either.  The fact you think it's a bad thing to be pro family is just your liberal roots peeking out again and allowing you to spew Liberal talking points and hate on a real Conservative in Washington.

I'm not "anti-family"; what gave you that idea?   The Tax Code currently favors families;  Lee's proposal would increase that bias.   That being said,  I'm not in favor of Bigun's approach of absolute neutrality;  the Tax Code can and should be an effective means of encouraging economic activity and private spending toward ends that benefit the community (e.g., the mortgage interest deduction to encourage home ownership or the charitable deduction to encourage giving).   There's no particular virtue in ignoring the ability of tax policy to encourage desired behavior;  the question is what behavior is to be encouraged and to what end.   I say the end should be economic growth and jobs. 

The problem with Lee's approach is that it is inefficient in encouraging growth and jobs.  It's just another tax break for a favored constituency.   Here, I am with President Trump all the way - economic and tax policy should be crafted with an eye single toward JOBS, JOBS, and more JOBS.   THAT is the rising tide that will lift all boats. 

[txradioguy]

You're trying to reason with the guy that "despises social conservatives".  Something that benefits families is of no interest to him.

If it's not any benefit to a family or to conservative principals it's really of no use to the country period.

[txradioguy]

I'm not "anti-family"; what gave you that idea?   The Tax Code currently favors families;  Lee's proposal would increase that bias.   That being said,  I'm not in favor of Bigun's approach of absolute neutrality;  the Tax Code can and should be an effective means of encouraging economic activity and private spending toward ends that benefit the community (e.g., the mortgage interest deduction to encourage home ownership or the charitable deduction to encourage giving).   There's no particular virtue in ignoring the ability of tax policy to encourage desired behavior;  the question is what behavior is to be encouraged and to what end.   I say the end should be economic growth and jobs. 

The problem with Lee's approach is that it is inefficient in encouraging growth and jobs.  It's just another tax break for a favored constituency.   Here, I am with President Trump all the way - economic and tax policy should be crafted with an eye single toward JOBS, JOBS, and more JOBS.   THAT is the rising tide that will lift all boats.

Your knock on Mike Lee and his alleged "pro family bias" was a dead giveaway to your true feelings.

The only thing Trump and Congress need to do is slash and simplify the tax code and tax rates. Cut the corporate taxes rate in half and lower the gains tax.

Then get the hell out of the way and let American business owners and consumers do the rest.

It's really that simple.

[RoosGirl]

If it's not any benefit to a family or to conservative principals it's really of no use to the country period.

Of course, and the bottom line of social conservatism is that it is pro-family, which of course is pro-country.  Now, if you "despise social conservatives" you cannot be pro-family, and like you pointed out, is actually anti-family.

[Bigun]

We'll have to agree to disagree on how to get the tax thing fixed.  Flat tax seems the easiest to me that way everyone pays in with one rate and the class warfare thing goes away.  Too much political leeway with a consumption tax and you might find people returning to a barter system or making things themselves to avoid the tax and waiting way longer to replace things that need to be bought in order to delay paying a consumption or sales tax.  YOu see it a lot in places like Germany where they have a VAT tax of 19%.

I suppose we will. Largely because you don't seem to know what you are talking about on this issue!

[txradioguy]

I suppose we will. Largely because you don't seem to know what you are talking about on this issue!

Well...it was a civil discussion...

[Bigun]

Well...it was a civil discussion...

Still is as far as I'm concerned.  Who here has said a THING about a European style VAT?

[Mom MD]

Seriously? If you are paying 6 figures in federal taxes you are making a heck of a lot more than the majority of most people.  Somehow I don't feel sorry for you.  I would suggest though that if 50% of your earnings is going to taxes, you find a better CPA who can do a little creative accounting.

There is no creative accounting for 1099 wages.  The truly wealthy make their money from capital gains and things that can be sheltered but they generally dont have wages they pay tax on   I have an excellent accountant.  And I don't ask you to feel sorry for me.  I just want you to pay tax at the same rate I do and then we will talk about how you feel

[Mom MD]

What's needed is to PERMANENTLY take away their ability to pick winners and losers via the tax code and until that is done nothing much will change!

 

[Bigun]

There is no creative accounting for 1099 wages.  The truly wealthy make their money from capital gains and things that can be sheltered but they generally dont have wages they pay tax on   I have an excellent accountant.  And I don't ask you to feel sorry for me.  I just want you to pay tax at the same rate I do and then we will talk about how you feel

The current tax code allows the truly wealthy to arrange their affairs in such a way that they have little to no income while consuming like crazy because they pay no tax!

[RoosGirl]

  I just want you to pay tax at the same rate I do and then we will talk about how you feel

Amen.  And I don't feel sorry for anyone who thinks it's okay for someone that makes more than they do to pay a higher rate.

[Jazzhead]

If it's not any benefit to a family or to conservative principals it's really of no use to the country period.

Economic growth and jobs benefit families.   

[Jazzhead]

Your knock on Mike Lee and his alleged "pro family bias" was a dead giveaway to your true feelings.

The only thing Trump and Congress need to do is slash and simplify the tax code and tax rates. Cut the corporate taxes rate in half and lower the gains tax.

Then get the hell out of the way and let American business owners and consumers do the rest.

It's really that simple.

I agree.  I'll take a flat or flatter income tax with fewer deductions any day of the week.

But Mike Lee's proposal does none of that, it's a sop to social conservatives who want to encourage large families.   Why the heck should the Tax Code encourage large families?   

[Bigun]

I just want you to pay tax at the same rate I do and then we will talk about how you feel

NEVER going to happen with the Marxist progressive income tax and the IRS in place!  Never ever!

We need a tax system that requires exactly zero government pules to know how much money you make or what source(s) are and the bill is right there in the M&M committee gathering dust!!

[Restored]

Increasing the amount going to families will actually increase the amount going to Welfare via EITC.

[Jazzhead]

NEVER going to happen with the Marxist progressive income tax and the IRS in place!  Never ever!

We need a tax system that requires exactly zero government pules to know how much money you make or what source(s) are and the bill is right there in the M&M committee gathering dust!!

Euro-style VATs are an amazingly efficient means of generating lots of revenue for government programs.  They're also regressive as hell.  No thanks.   

[Jazzhead]

Increasing the amount going to families will actually increase the amount going to Welfare via EITC.

Good point.