The Foolishness of Never Trumpers

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1
Love is not beating someone into submission.  Nor is it an effective way to open their mind or heart.  Instead it tends to harden most people against your message. 

This is one of the fundamental reasons so many traditional churches are losing members and will soon cease to operate.   There are other ways to communicate.

Absolutely incorrect. And the reason traditional churches are losing membership is because they have lost their savor. Understanding how salt loses it's savor would be enlightening.

In the mean time, Biblical and fundamentalist based churches are growing in leaps and bounds -Bursting at the seams...

[Sanguine]

I believe the 1st amendment intended to create space between spiritual, religious and churches life, and civil life.

Some Founders were deists, not strict adherents to specific denominations.

You may believe that, but the facts say otherwise.

[RoosGirl]

Or, you incorrectly wrote what I read.  Why is this suddenly about Trump supporters?  No one is asking you to put away your ideals.  Ideals are good.  Unless one is forcing one's own ideals on other people.

You think an article about foolish Never Trumpers would not include discussion of Trump supporters?!  In fact, by you and others calling anyone who does not genuflect to the orange throne things such as "holier than thou" "morally superior"  "self righteous", etc you are indeed asking people to put away their ideals.  And in fact, I force my ideals on my 5 year old all the time; people who are immature (in any aspect) need education on proper behavior.  And I'm sure if we were eating in the same restaurant you would thank me for forcing my ideals on at least one person.

[Emjay]

@Emjay


Watch who you accuse of lying, understand?  Especially when you seem to have problems with the truth yourself.

First of all, you and I had some very friendly conversations for quite a while.  Then you started bucking for the position of forum scold/nanny, doing nothing but going from thread to thread and trying to tell people what they should and shouldn't post.  I had a problem with that, I told you so, and you didn't take it well.  At all.

If I were going to use the ignore button, I would use it for you, even though your posts aren't worth the click.  I don't use that feature, however.  But whether I do or don't isn't a damn bit of your business, so stop obsessing about it.  And for God's sake spare the rest of us your endless, miserable poor-me victim moaning.

Yeah, I know.  Too much to ask.  Three days from now you'll still be crying about our exchange here.

Go put a ribbon on your dog or something.

First of all, you did lie.  And it was totally unnecessary.  I remember it well.  Not word for word but you said you were through with me and were putting me on ignore because 'I wasn't worth messing with."

I don't know why you choose to lie about that because it was an okay thing to say and do if that's the way you felt.

When I see your posts, I make a real effort NOT to respond to them because you take it so personally.  I've disagreed with many people here and some of them don't like me that much but you're the only one with a vendetta.  And your clown friend @goodwithagun

Let's do this.  Let's just ignore each other.

My dog is pretty enough without a ribbon.

[Emjay]

"Love" these days means people accept the anything goes mentality that has taken over the country and anything less than that is automatically considered "hate".

The belief of love the sinner hate the sin is a foreign concept to too many people these days.

Then, Love isn't never having to say you're sorry?  Dopiest movie line ever.

[Sanguine]

I think humanism woukd argue for the same.

With the big exception that humanism removes God from the equation and says that humans can be perfected if only they would give up their individuality and work together. 

[driftdiver]

No one is beating anyone.

@roamer_1
Oh I disagree with that 100%

[Emjay]

You think an article about foolish Never Trumpers would not include discussion of Trump supporters?!  In fact, by you and others calling anyone who does not genuflect to the orange throne things such as "holier than thou" "morally superior"  "self righteous", etc you are indeed asking people to put away their ideals.  And in fact, I force my ideals on my 5 year old all the time; people who are immature (in any aspect) need education on proper behavior.  And I'm sure if we were eating in the same restaurant you would thank me for forcing my ideals on at least one person.

True, but we left Trump a long time ago in this discussion ... like 10 pages ago.

I certainly don't expect anyone to genuflect to Trump.  He is not personally an ideal person. 

And, I would hope you would keep your ideals to yourself in a restaurant so that we could all have a pleasant meal.

[Emjay]

Next time a MOD tells me to stay on topic He/She can KMA!   

LOL !!!!!  I don't even remember what the topic was here, but we've had an interesting discussion.

[Sanguine]

BTW, @Emjay, I like your Aslan avatar.  I used a similar one for a time. 

[Emjay]

BTW, @Emjay, I like your Aslan avatar.  I used a similar one for a time.

Thanks, I like Him too.

[INVAR]

You do not own the "Truth".   I believe you are misusing Matthew 10:22.   Its not a license to be offensive or to be prideful.  Some people use it as a stick to pridefully hold themselves as better than others.

Again.  This is the refuge for those who despise the Truth and do not want to hear, see or know that it exists outside someone's own thoughts, which they should keep to themselves.   God forbid that they are governed by that Truth instead of surrendering it to advance political objectives so as not to be 'offensive' to those who want everyone to accept their behaviors and ideas.

What you are essentially saying is Jesus' words "Go and sin no more" is now 'offensive'.  To call sin what it is, regarded as alienation and pride.

So remaining silent and surrendering principles is now expected in order to avoid 'offenses'.  This is a proof of the absolute corruption of this people.

Love is not beating someone into submission. 

Love is telling someone the unabashed truth when their path and behaviors will lead them and the nation to death.  I find it very telling that when anyone speaks the unabashed truth that not only is it decreed to be offensive it is considered to be beating someone 'into submission'.

Nor is it an effective way to open their mind or heart.  Instead it tends to harden most people against your message. 

Show us where accommodating/placating sin and bad behavior has ever opened anyones mind and heart to reject evils they enjoy and return to the faith once delivered?  Likewise, show us where accommodating Socialism and Statism has ever opened this people's minds to those evils and gotten them to eschew it for the foundational principles that established us?

If people harden their hearts against the message of repentance and admonishment to return to the path that leads to life, it is because they do not want to follow that path and choose the wide gate to destruction they prefer.

This is one of the fundamental reasons so many traditional churches are losing members and will soon cease to operate.   There are other ways to communicate.

Persecuted churches are growing in the third world.

Here, churches that preach the 'prosperity gospel' are full.  Traditional bible-based churches are shrinking. We were foretold this would happen and that in our prosperity the church itself would not endure sound doctrine.  As a people we are being given over to our own lusts and consequences, having made God over into our own perverted image instead of transforming ourselves into His.  Not unlike the fact this people are giving themselves over to Socialism and Statism rather than insisting the government be confined within the foundations that established us.

It is why Populist Socialism is the new Conservatism and tolerant debauchery is the new Christianity.

[Emjay]

@INVAR  I truly hope you are perfect.  Otherwise, you're in for a rude awakening.

[RoosGirl]

And, I would hope you would keep your ideals to yourself in a restaurant so that we could all have a pleasant meal.

Aren't you precious.  The next time you dine next to a screaming kid remember that you are getting what you hoped for.

[INVAR]

@INVAR  I truly hope you are perfect.  Otherwise, you're in for a rude awakening.

Thanks for illustrating and bolstering all of my points dear.

[catfish1957]

I have ancestors, on both sides of many conflicts throughout our nation's history. One such gxxx grandfather, was one "Rev. Hatevil Nutter," truly a Puritan zealot, that had Quakers whipped.

Thanks for sharing.  I truly enjoy these accounts of ancestors.  Here is one of mine.  This lady is wife of a 9 great uncle John Osgood.  His brother my 8 great grandfather Hooker Osgood was one of several that signed the petition to free her. (Sadly the link is dead that has a copy of that petition) Somehow she escaped the 1692 carnage.

Mary Clemment- daughter of Robert of Haverhill married John Osgood (1630-1693) 11-15-1653. John was the son of John Osgood, b. 7-23-1598 Wherwell Hampshire England, and Sarah Booth.

Mary was one of the unfortunes accused of witchcraft during the time of the Salem Witch Trials. As the notes by Charlotte Helen Abbot put it- "Her husband John, who was also scared but loyal, denied her admission and said that she was all right and was too frightened to know what she was saying. She recanted her confession on Oct. 16, 1692, before Increase Mather, and testified that she had been browbeaten."

"She confesses that about eleven years ago, when she was in a melancholy stste and condition, she used to walk abroad in her orchard ; upon a certain time she saw the appearance of a cat, at the end of the house, which she thought was a real cat."

"She sais further, that about two years agone, she was carried through the air, in company with deacon Frye's wife, Ebenezer Barker's wife, and Goody Tyler, to five-mile pond, where she was baptized by the devil."

*Excerpts from "the examination and confession (September 8, 1692) of Mary Osgood, wife of Capt, John Osgood, of Andover, taken before John Hawthorne and other Majesties' Justice."

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1
Oh I disagree with that 100%

Knock yourself out. 

[truth_seeker]

Way More Than the Scarlet Letter: Puritan Punishments

In their rigid enforcement of community standards, Puritan New Englanders often resorted to unusual punishments such as the bilbo, the cleft stick, the brand, the ear crop and the letter, scarlet and otherwise.

puritan-whippingIn Massachusetts, New Plymouth, Connecticut and New Haven Colony, the Puritans were more concerned with moral behavior and clean living than they were with property rights. They took their laws from the Bible, rather than English precedent, and people were less likely to be punished for larceny than to be punished for blasphemy, idolatry, drunkenness, lewdness, fornication, cursing or smoking.

Long-term incarceration was unknown, thought capital punishment for 12 crimes – including blasphemy, counterfeiting and witchcraft – accepted. Puritan law recognized the principle that no one should be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process, and explicitly limited government power. They prohibited unlawful search and seizure, double jeopardy and compulsory self-incrimination while guaranteeing bail, grand jury indictment and trial by jury.

Rhode Island was an exception, and took nearly all of its laws from English precedent.

snip



http://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/way-more-than-the-scarlet-letter-puritan-punishments/

[Emjay]

Aren't you precious.  The next time you dine next to a screaming kid remember that you are getting what you hoped for.

I would never accost the parents of a screaming kid.  They are suffering enough.

I would just order another martini, double the vodka.

[roamer_1]

With the big exception that humanism removes God from the equation and says that humans can be perfected if only they would give up their individuality and work together.

Exactly right.

The biggest lie of all is that ANY of our problems can be fixed without adherence to the root our country was founded upon.

Each and every 'conservative' who advocates fixing our nations problems, even with conservative solutions, begs the lie if they also eschew the Judeo-Christian Ethic.

There is not a SINGLE issue that can be fixed without first fixing the moral turpitude running rampant in our nation. Not a one.

[Emjay]

Thanks for sharing.  I truly enjoy these accounts of ancestors.  Here is one of mine.  This lady is wife of a 9 great uncle John Osgood.  His brother my 8 great grandfather Hooker Osgood was one of several that signed the petition to free her. (Sadly the link is dead that has a copy of that petition) Somehow she escaped the 1692 carnage.

Mary Clemment- daughter of Robert of Haverhill married John Osgood (1630-1693) 11-15-1653. John was the son of John Osgood, b. 7-23-1598 Wherwell Hampshire England, and Sarah Booth.

Mary was one of the unfortunes accused of witchcraft during the time of the Salem Witch Trials. As the notes by Charlotte Helen Abbot put it- "Her husband John, who was also scared but loyal, denied her admission and said that she was all right and was too frightened to know what she was saying. She recanted her confession on Oct. 16, 1692, before Increase Mather, and testified that she had been browbeaten."

"She confesses that about eleven years ago, when she was in a melancholy stste and condition, she used to walk abroad in her orchard ; upon a certain time she saw the appearance of a cat, at the end of the house, which she thought was a real cat."

"She sais further, that about two years agone, she was carried through the air, in company with deacon Frye's wife, Ebenezer Barker's wife, and Goody Tyler, to five-mile pond, where she was baptized by the devil."

*Excerpts from "the examination and confession (September 8, 1692) of Mary Osgood, wife of Capt, John Osgood, of Andover, taken before John Hawthorne and other Majesties' Justice."

Interesting, @catfish1957 .... those stories make me glad I am living now instead of then.

[truth_seeker]

Thanks for sharing. 

Genealogy led me to study of history, and the facts of history informed me about many aspects of our nation's paths, culture, religions, etc.

There is an important difference between the romantic notion "Puritans went to Holland," and my gxxx grandfather Puritan Rev. Nutter, whipped Quaker women, and laughed about it.

 

[catfish1957]

Genealogy led me to study of history, and the facts of history informed me about many aspects of our nation's paths, culture, religions, etc.

There is an important difference between the romantic notion "Puritans went to Holland," and my gxxx grandfather Puritan Rev. Nutter, whipped Quaker women, and laughed about it.

Absolutely.  You might really like Genealogy Bank and Newspapers.com.    These have OCR scanned papers back into the early 1700's, with good search capabilities.  Just last week, I found where a 4-great grandfather in western MA as a selectman evicted a new couple to their town for the fact that their character was unsavory.  And this is 1798 not 1692.

[truth_seeker]

Absolutely.  You might really like Genealogy Bank and Newspapers.com.    These have OCR scanned papers back into the early 1700's, with good search capabilities.  Just last week, I found where a 4-great grandfather in western MA as a selectman evicted a new couple to their town for the fact that their character was unsavory.  And this is 1798 not 1692.

I will check those out. I get chuckles about those, that instruct me I must interpret things the way they see them.

I have a gxxx uncle killed by those who opposed abolitionists. I have two gxxx grandfathers, killed by Indians. Maine, Indiana.

I have a gxxx uncle that traded a barrel of wine, to Brigham Young, for a wagon. Without his wagon, my ancestor came in the next (2nd) train across the plains. (Of course my ancestor wound up with the wine.)

 

[driftdiver]

Knock yourself out. 

Overall church attendance is going down.  4000 churches close their door every year.