The Foolishness of Never Trumpers

[Mom MD]

That's true and maybe I should have added individual rights.  But zealots who claim to be Christians may do more harm than good for Judeo-Christianity.

What is your definition of a zealot?  Someone who actually believes what they profess and is willing to stand up for it?  The world seems to love Christians and conservatives who smile and wink at the principled position, then climb into the sewer with everyone else.

[txradioguy]

What is your definition of a zealot?  Someone who actually believes what they profess and is willing to stand up for it?  The world seems to love Christians and conservatives who smile and wink at the principled position, then climb into the sewer with everyone else.

@Mom MD

Matthew 7:24-27

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”


That verse always reminds me of the principled Conservatives versus the "wink and nod" crowd. .

[Sanguine]

Good conversation.  These terms and concepts need to be explored.   

[Emjay]

Calling sin what it is is not hate.  Wrong is wrong period.  But calling out sin is an act of love not hate.  I do not hate homosexuals, I work with plenty of them and not one of them would tell you I hate them or have ever been unkind.  Hater is like racist - its the word liberals throw when they have no other arguement

I would also argue that those who are not "Bible thumpers"  - those who do not read and study the Bible - are the ones that have no inkling what Jesus Christ brought into the world - He did not try and fail.

However, the only reason I brought up religion is a poster asked what defined deviancy.  I replied with the only answer I can give for myself.  Others have other standards.  But please get over the hate crap.

Callin' it like I see it, sweetie.  But there is a good reason for separation of Church and State.

Religion is personal and, within the personal, one can espouse any view or interpretation of the Bible that makes sense to us.

But religion is not something we can agree on.  That's why there are so many churches and denominations.

I once sat in a Bible study class where we spent two hours discussing the meaning of the Parable of the Prodigal Son.  At the end of the time, there were as many opinions as to the true meaning as there were participants.  But we weren't fighting ... it just spoke to us differently.

[Mom MD]

Callin' it like I see it, sweetie.  But there is a good reason for separation of Church and State.

Religion is personal and, within the personal, one can espouse any view or interpretation of the Bible that makes sense to us.

But religion is not something we can agree on.  That's why there are so many churches and denominations.

I once sat in a Bible study class where we spent two hours discussing the meaning of the Parable of the Prodigal Son.  At the end of the time, there were as many opinions as to the true meaning as there were participants.  But we weren't fighting ... it just spoke to us differently.

Thats OK cupcake.  You can see things anyway you want.  I take umbrage at the hate term being thrown - not your personal religious beliefs.

[Emjay]

@Mom MD

Matthew 7:24-27

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”


That verse always reminds me of the principled Conservatives versus the "wink and nod" crowd. .

You know that Jeff Foxworthy bit where he does the "You might be..." thing.

You might be a zealot if you tend to quote Paul instead of Jesus.

You might be a zealot if you wink and nod at "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jesus knew we are all sinners.

[Sanguine]

Callin' it like I see it, sweetie.  But there is a good reason for separation of Church and State.

Religion is personal and, within the personal, one can espouse any view or interpretation of the Bible that makes sense to us.

But religion is not something we can agree on.  That's why there are so many churches and denominations.

I once sat in a Bible study class where we spent two hours discussing the meaning of the Parable of the Prodigal Son.  At the end of the time, there were as many opinions as to the true meaning as there were participants.  But we weren't fighting ... it just spoke to us differently.

One point - religion is not equal to church.  They are two different words because they mean different things.

[INVAR]

What is your definition of a zealot?  Someone who actually believes what they profess and is willing to stand up for it?  The world seems to love Christians and conservatives who smile and wink at the principled position, then climb into the sewer with everyone else.

For this is a rebellious people, lying children, children who refuse to hear the law of the LORD; who tell the seers, "Do not see for us," and to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things. Tell us pleasant things, smooth things. Prophesy deceits.

"But get out of the way! Turn aside from the path! We do not want to hear any more from the Holy One of Israel!"

Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel, "Because you despise this word, and trust in sin and perverseness, and rely on it; this iniquity shall be to you like a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking comes suddenly in an instant.  - Isaiah 30:9-13


You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22

[Emjay]

Thats OK cupcake.  You can see things anyway you want.  I take umbrage at the hate term being thrown - not your personal religious beliefs.

I apologize.  You are right.  I should not be so free with the hate word.  I need to find a more acceptable term but it bugs me when people feel so free to condemn others and exonerate themselves from sin.

[Sanguine]

I apologize.  You are right.  I should not be so free with the hate word.  I need to find a more acceptable term but it bugs me when people feel so free to condemn others and exonerate themselves from sin.

None of us like being being told we are wrong!  That doesn't mean we aren't wrong though. 

[Emjay]

One point - religion is not equal to church.  They are two different words because they mean different things.

True, but we cannot separate religion and state.  We can separate church and state.

[Sanguine]

True, but we cannot separate religion and state.  We can separate church and state.

And, if the founders had wanted to separate religion from state, they would have used that word. 

[Emjay]

None of us like being being told we are wrong!  That doesn't mean we aren't wrong though.

Hahahahaha.  So true.  But being on this forum keeps me humble.

[Mom MD]

I apologize.  You are right.  I should not be so free with the hate word.  I need to find a more acceptable term but it bugs me when people feel so free to condemn others and exonerate themselves from sin.

Thanks for the apology.  And I don't think anyone here condemns others while exonerating themselves.  If they do they are foolish and deceiving themselves. I will (and do) freely admit I am a deeply flawed vessel. But that does not absolve us of the responsibility to stand for what is right.

[Sanguine]

Hahahahaha.  So true.  But being on this forum keeps me humble.

Me too.

[Mom MD]

As a religious person you might be surprised to find I am a huge proponent of keeping church and state separate.  That includes tax breaks for churches as well. I do not want the state anywhere near my faith - and any concession by the state gives them power over the church. I do not want them telling my church who they can or have to marry, who they have to hire, etc.  Also all of a sudden the church is afraid to say anything because they may lose their tax break or other support.  Giving the feds a toe hold in any private enterprise is a bad idea.  Churches most of all, because as things go Christians will find themselves in direct opposition to the government at some point.

[RoosGirl]

I apologize.  You are right.  I should not be so free with the hate word.  I need to find a more acceptable term but it bugs me when people feel so free to condemn others and exonerate themselves from sin.

First off "separation of church and state" is a liberal idea of what the Constitution actually says.

Secondly, I have not seen anyone here exonerate themselves from sin during any discusion of the homosexual driven agenda, since that has been a focus in many posts lately with regard to our supposedly conservative President and his "most conservative cabinet evah",  that we are all being assaulted with.

[Emjay]

As a religious person you might be surprised to find I am a huge proponent of keeping church and state separate.  That includes tax breaks for churches as well. I do not want the state anywhere near my faith - and any concession by the state gives them power over the church. I do not want them telling my church who they can or have to marry, who they have to hire, etc.  Also all of a sudden the church is afraid to say anything because they may lose their tax break or other support.  Giving the feds a toe hold in any private enterprise is a bad idea.  Churches most of all, because as things go Christians will find themselves in direct opposition to the government at some point.

Exactly true.  Keep the State out of the Church for both of their sakes.

[RoosGirl]

I do not want the state anywhere near my faith - and any concession by the state gives them power over the church. I do not want them telling my church who they can or have to marry, who they have to hire, etc. 

And this was the major point of the first amendment.  They were most concerned about the gov't controlling the church.

[Emjay]

First off "separation of church and state" is a liberal idea of what the Constitution actually says.

Secondly, I have not seen anyone here exonerate themselves from sin during any discusion of the homosexual driven agenda, since that has been a focus in many posts lately with regard to our supposedly conservative President and his "most conservative cabinet evah",  that we are all being assaulted with.

It is implicit in some of the posts here that the posters believe themselves to be superior morally to the ones they criticize.

The constitution words it differently, of course, but I don't know why you think separation of Church and State is a liberal idea.

It is a conservative idea.

[txradioguy]

You know that Jeff Foxworthy bit where he does the "You might be..." thing.

You might be a zealot if you tend to quote Paul instead of Jesus.

You might be a zealot if you wink and nod at "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jesus knew we are all sinners.

And you might not know as much as you think you do and you're not near as clever as you give yourself credit for if you assume I'm a "zealot".

[Sanguine]

It is implicit in some of the posts here that the posters believe themselves to be superior morally to the ones they criticize.

The constitution words it differently, of course, but I don't know why you think separation of Church and State is a liberal idea.

It is a conservative idea.

Well, don't all of us think our ideas are superior?  Why would we keep them if we didn't think so?

[txradioguy]

And this was the major point of the first amendment.  They were most concerned about the gov't controlling the church.

You bring up a great point.

When the Framers wrote section in the 1st Amendment about the establishment of religion...they were doing that to prevent another Church of England situation in the newly founded U.S.A. where the head of the Church was also the head of state and could declare certain religious faith's illegal.

They did not write it to prevent the 10 Commandments from being displayed in a courthouse...or to prevent a Nativity scene from being erected on a court house lawn.

I think the Framers as well as the Founders would be horrified to see how misused the Establishment Clause is today.

[Emjay]

And you might not know as much as you think you do and you're not near as clever as you give yourself credit for if you assume I'm a "zealot".

Hey, I don't think you're a zealot.

And, it's perfectly obvious that I'm not as clever as I think I am.  No one could be !!!

LOL

[Cripplecreek]

And this was the major point of the first amendment.  They were most concerned about the gov't controlling the church.

Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was to reassure them that government wouldn't interfere with Church matters (like marriage)