Author Topic: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal  (Read 9907 times)

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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2017, 05:14:29 am »
Frank. Are you a yankee? I mean, it's okay and all that, some of my best friends are yankees.

Good ol' boys are the kind of folks you can talk cars, beer and girls with.
Changing the landscape in these parts is called "building a road". 
What have you got against mommas? Everyone has a momma, it's the daddy's that might be a trigger word for racism.
So, nonsense. You just seem to be having a cultural disconnect.

Bullshit. If the Paper of Record, the New York Times, tells me the songs racist, I believe it.

I also just found out the words "Waylon Jennings" are code for tripping black kids in funeral parlors. Found that on the BLM website.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #126 on: July 07, 2017, 06:06:14 am »
All of this shit does nothing to reduce the cost of healthcare and improve the quality thereof.

Get the god-damned government out of the health insurance business and put in place measures that make actual care a consumer-based concern with healthcare providers actually competing for business... and not entitlement grants from the taxpayers.

Those that can not afford free market, reasonably-priced care need to find a way to take care of themselves.

In the end, everyone dies.  Some die earlier than others.  And that's that.

I personally prefer to trust in the Lord rather than take the medicine.  I am sure we have all seen the commercials about drugs and their side affects.  One pill causes 3 other major medical problems.  What about Chemo?  Probably ranks pretty high on the mortality rate.  Cures 1, kills 3.

But people who work their entire lives in America should be able to afford health care.  The healthcare system is truly in trouble when Americans can't afford it.  And it will wither and die in the pit of insurance hell if they only expect the highest wage earners to be able to have it. 

All this aside,what a cold answer.  Hey, maybe we could just go the way of Europe and offer euthanasia....... you think?
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #127 on: July 07, 2017, 06:09:12 am »
While, I agree with you that the government needs to get out of the health insurance business and open up the free markets, I don't agree with you that Cruz's proposal does nothing to lower healthcare costs.

I hear your anger in your post, but there are those who are working their butts off and still can't afford medical care and what about those who are disabled or the elderly who are living on a limited budget and need medical care and prescription drugs; or would you propose that we just toss them aside because they are less fortunate?

IMHO ... no on seems to be addressing one of the key factors in the skyrocketing costs of health insurance:  ILLEGALS who receive benefits and haven't or don't pay into the system!

 :judge: :flag:
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline rodamala

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #128 on: July 07, 2017, 08:13:11 pm »
 ****slapping
   Don't mean to jack this Thread but it was discovered, through anonymous CNN reports, that Sen. Cruz refused to ride in a GM vehicle in the McAllen, TX July 4th parade, opting for a 1970 Dodge Challenger instead, no wonder @Frank Cannon hates him.



It's MOPAR or NO CAR.

Offline rodamala

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #129 on: July 07, 2017, 08:17:55 pm »
How you figure?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRX4mlFi06A

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Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #130 on: July 07, 2017, 09:30:08 pm »
McConnell is shooting his mouth off again, threatening Republicans that the world will end if they don't pass his flawed bill.

Conservatives disagree.  "Sen. Patrick J. Toomey (R-Pa.) didn’t make anything rosier for McConnell when he said Wednesday, “We’re still several weeks away from a vote, I think.” He was echoed by Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.), who said Thursday, “If we cannot bring the conference together and agree on repeal legislation, then I think President Trump’s absolutely right that we should pass a clean repeal.” He had told KTSA radio in San Antonio, “I don’t know if we get it done or not... It is precarious.”

So, yeah, how about following Trump's idea this time... repeal; then fix.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #131 on: July 07, 2017, 09:37:02 pm »
So, yeah, how about following Trump's idea this time... repeal; then fix.

I like the repeal part.

Do that now because there is no 'fixing' ObamaCare.  It is a nuclear payload that has only one purpose.

So REPEAL the damn thing as Mitch "Root-And-Branch"McConnell promised ad nauseum in 2012-14 - and let the free market 'fix' what the government itself royally effed up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeJ4_paARPY
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 09:39:19 pm by INVAR »
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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2017, 10:36:57 pm »
I like the repeal part.

Do that now because there is no 'fixing' ObamaCare.  It is a nuclear payload that has only one purpose.

So REPEAL the damn thing as Mitch "Root-And-Branch"McConnell promised ad nauseum in 2012-14 - and let the free market 'fix' what the government itself royally effed up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeJ4_paARPY

You and MJ are in total agreement.  I swear to God, I'm about to have a seizure....  :thud:
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Offline Emjay

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2017, 10:59:53 pm »
You and MJ are in total agreement.  I swear to God, I'm about to have a seizure....  :thud:

Relax, we'll probably have a little tiff in a while.
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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #134 on: July 07, 2017, 11:02:47 pm »
 888high58888
Relax, we'll probably have a little tiff in a while.
Yeah!  I'm pretty sure it's only a temporary condition.   :smokin:
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Offline corbe

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #135 on: July 07, 2017, 11:23:10 pm »
   To my fellow transplanted Texan @Emjay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dhWD_r5-LY
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Offline DB

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #136 on: July 08, 2017, 01:11:03 am »
Actually, I'm questioning the selling of insurance across state lines as a tool to save members money.  It hasn't worked in the past due to state benefits and administrative regulations --- and the difficulty for out-of-state insurance carriers to set up local provider networks. 

So, where do the cost-savings in selling insurance "across state lines" come from?   What, if any, changes in state oversight would be needed?

States create barriers to competitors all the time due to lobbyist getting legislators to pass laws to protect their turf. That is true in many areas including the trades. If you want to work in their monopoly you have to pay their dues.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #137 on: July 08, 2017, 01:25:27 am »
Ok... Let's say, John Doe who worked his tail off and put himself through school, received an internship and lands a job after he graduates is now making $65,000.00 and working 40 hours/week. Joe Blow isn't so motivated, and winds up working on a lawn maintenance crew working 60 hours/week and making $30,000.00.  John who doesn't have children can easily afford insurance as the company he works for pays a portion of his healthcare. Joe has three children and can't afford insurance for his family. Is it fair, to expect John to have to pay for Joe?

LB, I'm not sure why you say Joe Blow (in your example), is less motivated - he's working sixty hours a week!   The difference between them is that one has an employer who provides health insurance and one who doesn't.   That's the basic unfairness in the system.   Not differences in virtue.  Not differences in industriousness.  Just the stark difference in the health insurance options offered by employment in this nation.    How you fix it is a complex undertaking,  but the unfairness isn't that John ends up having to pay for Joe, but that the system that compels it is truly arbitrary.   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 01:27:08 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Fantom

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #138 on: July 08, 2017, 01:34:26 am »
but that the system that compels it is truly arbitrary.

Yes, bureaucratic/State control is arbitrary.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #139 on: July 08, 2017, 01:42:47 am »
Yes, bureaucratic/State control is arbitrary.

If it's designed that way.   Sound policy isn't easy, or common.   
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Offline Fantom

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #140 on: July 08, 2017, 01:45:48 am »
If it's designed that way.   Sound policy isn't easy, or common.

Ah, socialism works...if only we had the "Right" leaders.

How about the best "policy" is freedom...freedom of choice?
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #141 on: July 08, 2017, 01:48:49 am »
Ah, socialism works...if only we had the "Right" leaders.

How about the best "policy" is freedom...freedom of choice?

I'm not advocating socialism.  I want a system that works.  An employer-based system doesn't work for everybody.  It produces arbitrary outcomes based on the luck of the draw.   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 01:49:43 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Fantom

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #142 on: July 08, 2017, 02:01:01 am »
I'm not advocating socialism.  I want a system that works.  An employer-based system doesn't work for everybody.  It produces arbitrary outcomes based on the luck of the draw.

Well, we agree on the "employer" based model to a degree. However, that is a freely entered perk of employment. Labor Unions have distorted that somewhat. Maybe instead of a Union/Employer plan.. you get so much from said employment to buy your own plan? It can follow you from job to job.

I would think that such does not need government interference to achieve..except for Union plans, it is a free market consideration.

Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #143 on: July 08, 2017, 02:05:30 am »
I'm not advocating socialism.  I want a system that works.  An employer-based system doesn't work for everybody.  It produces arbitrary outcomes based on the luck of the draw.

What is your take, on the proposed system including the Cruz amendment?
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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #144 on: July 08, 2017, 03:20:15 am »
LB, I'm not sure why you say Joe Blow (in your example), is less motivated - he's working sixty hours a week!   The difference between them is that one has an employer who provides health insurance and one who doesn't.   That's the basic unfairness in the system.   Not differences in virtue.  Not differences in industriousness.  Just the stark difference in the health insurance options offered by employment in this nation.    How you fix it is a complex undertaking,  but the unfairness isn't that John ends up having to pay for Joe, but that the system that compels it is truly arbitrary.

You are the only one I see talking about "virtue."  Not one, single person on this thread ever mentioned "virtue" or lack thereof, except you. 
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Offline INVAR

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #145 on: July 08, 2017, 03:43:49 am »
I'm not advocating socialism.

Your posting history on this board proves that statement an outright lie.

Yes you do advocate Socialism and reveal Communist thinking to boot.

You even use word-for-word Socialist talking points to push Socialist ideas and policies on this board.

We got your number.  You are deceiving no one on this board about what you actually are and what you advocate.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 03:44:27 am by INVAR »
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #146 on: July 08, 2017, 04:16:05 am »
If it's designed that way.   Sound policy isn't easy, or common.
So you force the self employed yard guy to pony up 28K a year in premiums or be fined and pay for his bills, the first 14K of which will be out of pocket anyway, even with the insurance plan, and his kids get three preventative care visits to the doctor and one to the eye doctor and one to the dentist a year out of the deal. Meanwhile he has 2K to keep the lights on and feed the little nippers.

That's the problem with one size fits all, it doesn't.

Let's say he is employed by someone else who can afford to pay him what he 's making, and no more because of a competitive marketplace. (It's lawn care, some folks will pay the neighbor kid to cut it).
You require the employer to pay for insurance for all his employees, but the dollar value of the employee, less wages, less expenses, to the business is less than the cost of the insurance plan. Either there is a pay cut, or the business goes out of business.
Let's say the business owner does what a bunch have: He throws in the towel, apologizes to his (former) employees, and shuts down because he can't keep losing money. That was not why he went into business in the first place.
Now the (former) employee doesn't have a job or an insurance policy, and he still can't pay for his own health care because he has no income. If he's married with kids, they get to sell off assets down to the asset cap, and then qualify for Medicaid, at which point we're all picking up the tab for medicaid, but he can't live at home if the kids are going to get food stamps. I won't go into the rest of the destructive spiral, but it boils down to the fact that government seldom improves the things it touches. Health care is just one more example.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #147 on: July 08, 2017, 04:20:35 am »
I'm not advocating socialism.  I want a system that works.  An employer-based system doesn't work for everybody.  It produces arbitrary outcomes based on the luck of the draw.
I have never applied for a job and gotten hired based on a lottery. That is based on whether an employer believes I can and will do the job, whether they think I would make a good representative of their company, whether I can bring in more work, or make improvements which would be valuable to them.

This isn't some take a number and we'll call out the winner deal, it is based on professional history, knowledge, intelligence, reliability, demeanor, and a host of factors that may be intangible, but affect the outcome for the employer.

So, no. It isn't "luck of the draw", because as a prospective employee, you should be shopping around for a benefit and compensation package you want, and if your skill and experience is commensurate with that level of compensation, you have a chance to be hired. Bottom line is that it takes work to get there, far more than luck.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #148 on: July 08, 2017, 01:14:06 pm »
I'm not advocating socialism.  I want a system that works.  An employer-based system doesn't work for everybody.  It produces arbitrary outcomes based on the luck of the draw.

How about let the market lower the costs of healthcare and health insurance is exactly that: insurance that kicks in only in case of a catastrophic health situation? 

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Re: GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal
« Reply #149 on: July 08, 2017, 01:21:28 pm »


Still as true today as it was the day he said it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien