GOP tensions rise over Cruz proposal

[Applewood]

I don't give a damn whether you chip in cheerfully.   What concerns me is that the poor and afflicted not be left to die in the gutter, and that the cost of their care be apportioned fairly.

You don't get it.  The "poor and afflicted" are not dying in the streets.  That was the bogus selling point used by the Democrats to force a Obamacare down our throats.  It's a manufactured crisis, nothing more. 

And I for one resent your implication that anyone who does not favor some variation of Obamacare is cruel and heartress toward the poor.  You don't know any of us. You have no idea whether any of us have done anything for the downtrodden.  It's just that many of us would like to be able to make our own choices as to where, when and to whom we wish to extend our charity.  I for one don't appreciate the government stealing from me and giving my money away to whoever it thinks should benefit.   

Government does a poor job when it comes to charity.  Every government program has some level of fraud, waste and mismanagement.  If I'm going to give, I would prefer to give to a charitable organization with the knowledge and expertise to manage its finite resources instead of govetnment, which would pour my "contribution" down the rabbit hole.

[Right_in_Virginia]

My insurance company quit offering health insurance here (In ND).

Self-employed, I had a high deductible plan and a HSA. That did not comply with the Obamacare requirements. Like other insurers they quit offering plans which did not comply with Obamacare requirements. It was the ACA requirements that killed those alternatives for people nationwide, not the States.   ,,,/

Actually, I'm questioning the selling of insurance across state lines as a tool to save members money.  It hasn't worked in the past due to state benefits and administrative regulations --- and the difficulty for out-of-state insurance carriers to set up local provider networks. 

So, where do the cost-savings in selling insurance "across state lines" come from?   What, if any, changes in state oversight would be needed?

[Smokin Joe]

Actually, I'm questioning the selling of insurance across state lines as a tool to save members money.  It hasn't worked in the past due to state benefits and administrative regulations --- and the difficulty for out-of-state insurance carriers to set up local provider networks. 

So, where do the cost-savings in selling insurance "across state lines" come from?   What, if any, changes in state oversight would be needed?

Those policies would have to comply with the insurance requirements of the states they are sold in. Much like selling a 30 round magazine for an AR-15, which is fine in most states, but trouble in California and Colorado and MD and NY, etc.

I regularly get a catalog from a company which sells items that they will not ship to states where the item is illegal or restricted. It is part of interstate commerce. Whether the insurance company wants to keep the risk pools separate from other states would be up to them, but I'd think there would be some basic plans that would fit across a multitude of state lines. Note, we don't have the complication of HMOs here yet, just networks which are affiliated and typically got discounts 'in network' versus 'out of network' providers, however, the insured chose their network. I would imagine that simplified billing and lowered costs to keep it all within the same network.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Those policies would have to comply with the insurance requirements of the states they are sold in. Much like selling a 30 round magazine for an AR-15, which is fine in most states, but trouble in California and Colorado and MD and NY, etc.  .../ 

Okay ... how does that save money if out-of-state insurance companies are locked into the same parameters as in-state insurance companies?

I'm really not trying to be argumentative ... I really do not understand how this works to the individual's financial benefit.

[libertybele]

Actually, I'm questioning the selling of insurance across state lines as a tool to save members money.  It hasn't worked in the past due to state benefits and administrative regulations --- and the difficulty for out-of-state insurance carriers to set up local provider networks. 

So, where do the cost-savings in selling insurance "across state lines" come from?   What, if any, changes in state oversight would be needed?

Simple competition.   If one was able to shop around and found that a health insurance policy for instance in the state of Michigan cost $500.00 per individual with a $500.00 deductible was cheaper than a similar insurance policy in the state of Florida; it would only be logical to purchase the cheaper plan.  No different really than a homeowner's policy...my current insurance umbrella office is in South Carolina yet they are able to write insurance in Florida.  I have found them to be about $120 cheaper a month than similar policies....it may not seem like much, but it adds up.

Competition tends to keep costs down.  Most don't know it, but you can negotiate the cost of surgeries, lab tests, procedures, etc.  Unfortunately, if you have insurance, that price is pre-set according to what they will and will not cover and how much they will pay for each procedure.  Also, it would be beneficial if we knew costs of procedures...if I need an xray -- wouldn't it be more cost effective if I could go to company B and have and xray done for $100.00 rather than have to go to company C that charges $150.00 because that was the agreed amount set forth by the insurance company.  Even though technically, the procedure would be covered ... that extra $50.00 has to be absorbed somehow. That is why many insurance companies mandate you only go to certain providers ... they have set agreements as to what procedures they will cover and what they will pay and how much the provider can charge. Every wonder why bandages and a single dose of an antibiotic costs so much during a hospital stay?  It's because that is the amount that the insurance will cover...so...that's what the provider charges.

[Fantom]

I don't give a damn whether you chip in cheerfully.   What concerns me is that the poor and afflicted not be left to die in the gutter, and that the cost of their care be apportioned fairly.

[Archie Bunker] Would it make you happier if they died on a gurney in the hall of a ..ahem "medical" facility Meathead.  [/Archie Bunker]   

Because that is what happens in socialized medical countries like England.

I like you Jazz.. you are often wrongheaded..like your man Kasick. But you generally present an honest argument.

The real question is how to allocate resources.  Medical care is finite. I believe I can speak for most on this board by saying.."Yes.. every ill should be cured forthwith"...However...only Jesus fed the masses with a loaf of bread.

In places like England, fat people and people who smoke are being denied certain surgeries. I s'pose that such rationing should apply to other ..ahem.."Lifestyle" choices as well.

Which brings us to our country and a "fair" system. What is an equitable distribution of health care?

Certainly the poor deserve help...Jesus taught us so. No matter what system one uses...the rich/powerful will get theirs.... and then some. So let us look at the middle class and poor. What gives the greatest return in health coverage.

I would suggest a two stage system. One where working People..middle class and poor alike can buy, across state lines, a plan of their choosing and means. One unfettered by government regs as much as possible. Maybe  mandate a certain number of industry agreed plans so apple to apple comparisons can be made.. then whatever plans a free People wish after that.. The Free market.

The second stage is the cruel one. It is where care is rationed like any socialist system. Medicaid essentially, without cost shifting to the primary system. This is where you are going to have to apply your socialist morals. There is no "cadillac" plan on the backs of the working class.. that is the failing of obamacare.  Now you have to make choices... a trillion for HIV/fat/smokers/self inflicted.... or fix a broken arm.

Who dies on your gurneys?


A Simple Bricklayer.

[corbe]

    I wish I was more optimistic.
    If the past 6 years is any indication, and I believe them to be, the GOP Congress lead by the nutless duo, Ryan and McConnell will not get a damn thing done because their backs aren't really against the wall like say another Omnibus passage, after a few more false starts on their idea of rename and resuscitate, they'll eventually just tweak around the edges of the ACA to shore up the exchanges and such and then blame everybody else for their incompetence, complete with a bunch of Healthcare Vote Countdown Clocks on FOX, (oh, the drama) which puts me in the @INVAR camp, it's all kabuki theatre, bread and circuses. 
    But damn, it sure is nice to discuss it with you folks. 

[libertybele]

I don't give a damn whether you chip in cheerfully.   What concerns me is that the poor and afflicted not be left to die in the gutter, and that the cost of their care be apportioned fairly.

Ok... Let's say, John Doe who worked his tail off and put himself through school, received an internship and lands a job after he graduates is now making $65,000.00 and working 40 hours/week. Joe Blow isn't so motivated, and winds up working on a lawn maintenance crew working 60 hours/week and making $30,000.00.  John who doesn't have children can easily afford insurance as the company he works for pays a portion of his healthcare. Joe has three children and can't afford insurance for his family. Is it fair, to expect John to have to pay for Joe?

[corbe]

McConnell is about to endorse Berniecare   

3 hours ago by Steve Berman

Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has never met an entitlement program he could defeat, even with a majority of the Senate, and the White House behind him.

The Hill is reporting that McConnell “signaled” his doubts. At a Rotary Club meeting.


“If my side is unable to agree on an adequate replacement, then some kind of action with regard to private health insurance markets must occur,” McConnell said a Rotary Club meeting in Kentucky on Thursday, according to multiple reports.

I am speechless with disappointment. All the words I have for this are unsuitable to print.

We are on the very cusp of finally making the smallest possible step to ratchet back an enormous Leviathan of a government program, and McConnell is surrendering to the short-sighted politics of three Republican senators, one of whom is a closet Democrat.

<..snip..>

http://thenewamericana.com/2017/07/06/mcconnell-cave-obamacare-repeal/

[Right_in_Virginia]

Simple competition.   If one was able to shop around and found that a health insurance policy for instance in the state of Michigan cost $500.00 per individual with a $500.00 deductible was cheaper than a similar insurance policy in the state of Florida; it would only be logical to purchase the cheaper plan.  .../

This could work if the policy from Florida satisfied the regulations in the buyer's home state.  The key word is "similar".

And would this out-of-state policy guarantee the buyer access to a local network of health care providers covered through the out-of-state insurance policy?

[GtHawk]

Is it fair, to expect John to have to pay for Joe?

If the answer is yes, then perhaps living in a socialist state rather than a Constitutional Republic might be in order, moonbeam and his lunaticks are doing their best to drive out Conservative  to make lot's of room here in California.

[corbe]

This could work if the policy from Florida satisfied the regulations in the buyer's home state.  The key word is "similar".

And would this out-of-state policy guarantee the buyer access to a local network of health care providers covered through the out-of-state insurance policy?

   Good Question @Right_in_Virginia and IMHO the major obstacle to selling Insurance across State lines, enabling a vibrant free market to take hold, has ALWAYS been the Federal Govt., (bought and paid for by the majors in the Insurance Industry Lobby) and it got 100 times worse under the regulatory burden of ACA.
   This feckless Congress can't fix it and neither can Trump, it is above their pay grade and intellectual capability.

[Free Vulcan]

Okay ... how does that save money if out-of-state insurance companies are locked into the same parameters as in-state insurance companies?

I'm really not trying to be argumentative ... I really do not understand how this works to the individual's financial benefit.

Alot of companies operate in more than one state, but their pool can only be that state's residents. So they already have the networks and such setup. Larger pools result in better averages, cheaper premiums, more competition.

If the FedGov were to allow companies to sell across state lines, they could also mandate a minimum catastrophic health coverage that could be sold in all states regardless of state regulations.

[corbe]

   Don't mean to jack this Thread but it was discovered, through anonymous CNN reports, that Sen. Cruz refused to ride in a GM vehicle in the McAllen, TX July 4th parade, opting for a 1970 Dodge Challenger instead, no wonder @Frank Cannon hates him.

[Fantom]

My insurance company quit offering health insurance here (In ND).

Self-employed, I had a high deductible plan and a HSA. That did not comply with the Obamacare requirements. Like other insurers they quit offering plans which did not comply with Obamacare requirements. It was the ACA requirements that killed those alternatives for people nationwide, not the States.

While the Feds can't regulate those alternatives (back) into existence, they did regulate them out of existence. Remove those criteria, and the insurance companies can sell those 'lesser than Cadillac' plans again.
Remove the penalties, and people can get affordable coverage for the big stuff, and pay the little things out of pocket.

You should be able to buy a short term policy. Legal under obamacare .. of less than 12 months.

Here in Oklahoma I can buy a policy on a six month renewal for $240.00  a month.. your basic catastrophic/major medical.... $4000,deductible.

[Smokin Joe]

Okay ... how does that save money if out-of-state insurance companies are locked into the same parameters as in-state insurance companies?

I'm really not trying to be argumentative ... I really do not understand how this works to the individual's financial benefit.

Go for a high deductible, but lower coverage major medical plan--pays on day surgery and hospitalization that will 'fit' with the requirements of several states. Because the plan does not cover prescription drugs, checkups, and the minor visits, it is cheaper all the way around. It only pays out on major problems and kicks in at 3500, 5000, or 10K. The plan I had had a 5K per event deductible and 80/20 copay to 10K, after that the plan picks up everything connected with the hospital stay or surgery. Considering I had the plan 20 years, I'm still pretty healthy, and do not take any meds, it fit just fine. Two surgeries, one for an umbilical hernia, one for the removal of a basal cell carcinoma (with frozen section checks for a clear margin) qualified. One stay for pneumonia, also (two days), this in 20 years. I also paid cash for my granddaughter's braces, as I had seen that coming and started putting the money aside during the run-up to the oil boom (income in the mid to upper 5 figures at the time).  My wife is pretty healthy as are the kids (two grandkids we are raising, now teens).
Theoretically, my wife and the kids are covered under Indian Health (one of the reasons I was so against Obamacare, I have seen what the Feds can do to a healthcare program). In reality, we paid cash out of a HSA, so those payments were made with money put in the account which was not subject to Federal Income Tax if used for Medical expenses. During the best years I made the maximum allowable deposit to that fund.

Compared to the current "exchange" plans, with 14K deductible and 28K annual premium, my old plan with a  6K annual premium, even with the average 8K payout for a family of 4 for dental, optical, the odd prescription, and doctor visits, the savings were huge.

The liability with the obamacare plan (the cheap one in this state) is 28K (for premiums) plus 14K deductibles, or 42K. With the catastrophic plan I had, average outlay (premiums and actual expenses) was under 14K, one third of the Obamacare cost. Even if you just included the Obamacare premiums and our actual cost under the Oamacare plan, that would only bring it down to 36K a year, which, last year would have left us under 10K to eat on and keep the lights lit--for the year (oil boom over).

In a land of stable six figure incomes, that Cadillac (Obamacare) plan might somehow make sense, but in the feast or famine world of the oil patch, no way.

[Smokin Joe]

You should be able to buy a short term policy. Legal under obamacare .. of less than 12 months.

Here in Oklahoma I can buy a policy on a six month renewal for $240.00  a month.. your basic catastrophic/major medical.... $4000,deductible.

I'll have to shop around again. My carrier quit carrying health care plans when Obamacare came into effect and it was obvious the Pubbies weren't doing the de-fund thing.

[Smokin Joe]

   Don't mean to jack this Thread but it was discovered, through anonymous CNN reports, that Sen. Cruz refused to ride in a GM vehicle in the McAllen, TX July 4th parade, opting for a 1970 Dodge Challenger instead, no wonder @Frank Cannon hates him.

I have a herd of pre-bailout Chevrolets, and a token Dodge ('87 1/2 ton pickup)

The Challenger is a nice car, though.

[Smokin Joe]

   Good Question @Right_in_Virginia and IMHO the major obstacle to selling Insurance across State lines, enabling a vibrant free market to take hold, has ALWAYS been the Federal Govt., (bought and paid for by the majors in the Insurance Industry Lobby) and it got 100 times worse under the regulatory burden of ACA.
   This feckless Congress can't fix it and neither can Trump, it is above their pay grade and intellectual capability.

The Congress could fix it, but they don't give a feck. Like you said, they're feckless all right.

[corbe]

Cruz faces ObamaCare repeal pushback during veterans event

 By Jordain Carney - 07/06/17 09:41 PM EDT   

Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) got pushback over healthcare during a town hall with a conservative veterans group on Thursday evening.

"I'm happy to have a respectful conversation ...but if we're just yelling back and forth at each other we can't have that," Cruz told attendees during a nearly 20-minute back-and-forth over healthcare.

Cruz was participating in a town hall hosted by the Concerned Veterans for America, which was meant to be focused on reforming the Department of Veterans Affairs and veterans-related issues.

The conservative senator quickly ran into pockets of opposition as some attendees chanted "pro-choice" and "liberal is not a bad word" between veterans questions.

But the event pivoted almost entirely to healthcare after an attendee asked if the Senate GOP's repeal and replace bill would impact veterans.

<..snip..>

Cruz is currently opposed to the legislation, but has been locked in negations with Senate leadership.

He wants an amendment included that would allow insurance companies to offer any kind of plan, as long as at least one complies with the ObamaCare regulations.

GOP leadership is struggling to find a deal that could capture 50 votes as senators prepare to return to Washington on Monday. Some conservatives, including Cruz, have backed repealing ObamaCare now, with a delayed "off ramp" and replacing it separately.

But Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said in Kentucky earlier Thursday that if Republicans aren't able to pass their own bill they will need to work with Democrats to pass legislation that would stabilize the health insurance market.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/340932-cruz-faces-obamacare-repeal-pushback-during-veterans-event

[Frank Cannon]

   Don't mean to jack this Thread but it was discovered, through anonymous CNN reports, that Sen. Cruz refused to ride in a GM vehicle in the McAllen, TX July 4th parade, opting for a 1970 Dodge Challenger instead, no wonder @Frank Cannon hates him.

Oh man. A Mopar. A company that has been passed around like an old whore by the Socialist Germans and Italians. I also believe the General Lee was a Mopar.

Just proof positive that Lyin' Ted is a Commie Pinko racist.

[Smokin Joe]

Oh man. A Mopar. A company that has been passed around like an old whore by the Socialist Germans and Italians. I also believe the General Lee was a Mopar.

Just proof positive that Lyin' Ted is a Commie Pinko racist.

How you figure?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRX4mlFi06A

[Frank Cannon]

How you figure?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRX4mlFi06A

Come on man. Get with the program. That song is a racist as it gets.

Just the good ol' boys

Good Ol' Boys is code for the KKK.

Staightenin' the curves, Flattenin' the hills

They were involved with changing the landscape, otherwise known as gentrification.

I'm a good ol' boy, You know my momma loves me

Trigger words for a racially segregated south.

[INVAR]

Come on man. Get with the program. That song is a racist as it gets.

Just the good ol' boys

Good Ol' Boys is code for the KKK.

Staightenin' the curves, Flattenin' the hills

They were involved with changing the landscape, otherwise known as gentrification.

I'm a good ol' boy, You know my momma loves me

Trigger words for a racially segregated south.

You use those Democrat trigger-points prettier than a twenty million dollar Congress whore.

[Smokin Joe]

Come on man. Get with the program. That song is a racist as it gets.

Just the good ol' boys

Good Ol' Boys is code for the KKK.

Staightenin' the curves, Flattenin' the hills

They were involved with changing the landscape, otherwise known as gentrification.

I'm a good ol' boy, You know my momma loves me

Trigger words for a racially segregated south.

Frank. Are you a yankee? I mean, it's okay and all that, some of my best friends are yankees.

Good ol' boys are the kind of folks you can talk cars, beer and girls with.
Changing the landscape in these parts is called "building a road". 
What have you got against mommas? Everyone has a momma, it's the daddy's that might be a trigger word for racism.
So, nonsense. You just seem to be having a cultural disconnect.