Kim Jong-un riles Trump on the Fourth: US President calls emergency meeting to formulate 'measured response' to North Korea's record-breaking missile test amid fears one could hit Alaska

[Wingnut]

OK you're right,  North Korea is not a business partner to China,  Right?   Nope they get all their money off a freakin money tree.   You should see the tree their weapons grow on, now thats impressive.

Many days I really wonder why the hell I spend time posting here.   Its one great big anti-trump (and America) circle jerk.

Push your foreskin back up will ya. 

[DB]

@thackney
Can always trust you to quibble over minutia.

If you are going to openly call others ignorant it helps to have your facts right.

[DB]

Jonestown on an international scale. It's happened before and to countries with far more to lose than North Korea.

As long as China's immediate interests are at stake our options are seriously limited but at some point self preservation will override concern for China's reaction. They should recognize this and do something about it before we are forced to.

NK is China's proxy against the US. China loves all the US time and resources NK consumes. Without China NK couldn't exist, it would starve. So if you want to actually cause change in NK that change has to come from China. China is who we should be pressuring and making pay a price for enabling NK and all the human suffering that it has wrought.

[driftdiver]

If you are going to openly call others ignorant it helps to have your facts right.

@DB
Hey I said he was right.  North Korea doesn't do any business with China.  Right?

[driftdiver]

Push your foreskin back up will ya.

Insulted any other veterans for their service today sport?

I'll let you get back to arguing about rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic.  REMFs are usful compared to so many here.

[Wingnut]

Insulted any other veterans for their service today sport?

I'll let you get back to arguing about rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic.  REMFs are usful compared to so many here.

Try to not be the dickhead you are. 

[driftdiver]

Try to not be the dickhead you are.

Yes you hate to be called on it.

[Suppressed]

@Suppressed
They've been working on the nukes for about 24+ years.  President Clinton enabled them and sold China the technology.    President Bush applied sanctions which had some marginal impact, mostly to show the world they'd let their people starve before stopping their quest for nukes.  Obama was back to enabling them and appeasement. 

Just how much do you expect Trump do in 5 months with the crap sandwich left for him?     How much could anyone do in that time short of launching airstrikes and possibly starting WWIII with China?

@driftdiver

I wouldn't expect much, as I'm a sane, informed, intelligent man.  But Trump bragged and bragged about how great he is and what he would accomplish, showing total lack of comprehension.  We were told what a GREAT dealmaker he is, but he gave away more than Obama...just handed things over to the Chinese...and got bupkis.  He turns out to be a WORSE negotiator than OBAMA!   We got the same results with Obama without giving anything away!

Now today, it looks like he's realized that he got rolled.  He's mad and will make them pay.  (Well, make the American consumer pay, if he does what he claimed he would do.)

You see, those of us who realized it was a far more complex issue than Donnie claimed were called names.  We were chastised for not putting our heads in the sand and just genuflecting before The One Don.  But we were the ones who were right -- an Open Wallet Policy wouldn't work with China.

Trump is used to negotiating where he could be a bully.  But when there are others with a position, he's weak.  Let's hope for the future, he can shut his piehole, restrain his little fingers, and start learning some lessons!  I'll give him credit if he bounces back from this and succeeds!

[thackney]

@DB
Hey I said he was right.  North Korea doesn't do any business with China.  Right?

I never made such a claim.  Take your straw-man argument somewhere else.

[txradioguy]

And what did Trump do?  Gave lots of things to China.

And what did China do?  Not solve the problem.


So where's all the great deal-making?  We got snookered.

Where's all the winning?  We now have a nuclear-capable nation run by a madman, with ICBMs.

Brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag, brag...

And then when it comes down to it, failure.


He told us he had the answers.  Of course, some of us knew he was full of it, but some good people fell for it.

And now we have ICBMs in DPRK.

With important posts in the region still waiting to be filled.

Meanwhile, he was attacking CNN.

So yes, I'll blame him for not following through on his promises.  Let's see what he does next.

Proving yet again that appeasement is only successful for those getting the goodies.

[txradioguy]

Here's an idea...the next time the Norks decide to shoot off a missile...use one of our land based interceptors at Ft. Greely to shoot it down.

That not only sends a very direct message to Pyongyang that they shouldn't do that anymore...it also announces in grand fashion to rest of the world we have the means and the will to stop anyone from threatening our allies with ICBM's.

[driftdiver]

I never made such a claim.  Take your straw-man argument somewhere else.

@thackney
Sure you did, by picking out the minutia I had wrong to try and discredit my post.  All while saying nothing about the things I had 100% correct.

Ya know the part that China is a huge trading partner of NK.   I've read since that 90% of NKs foreign trade is with China.    NK doesn't make any weapons at home, they get all of it from China.

So take your mealy mouthed criticism and pound sand.

[driftdiver]

Here's an idea...the next time the Norks decide to shoot off a missile...use one of our land based interceptors at Ft. Greely to shoot it down.

That not only sends a very direct message to Pyongyang that they shouldn't do that anymore...it also announces in grand fashion to rest of the world we have the means and the will to stop anyone from threatening our allies with ICBM's.

@txradioguy
I think I read where our last test of the interceptors failed.   Even assuming it were successful, such action would be an escalation and could very well lead to further escalation.   Kim would not back down because to do so would be condemning himself.

[txradioguy]

@txradioguy
I think I read where our last test of the interceptors failed.   Even assuming it were successful, such action would be an escalation and could very well lead to further escalation.   Kim would not back down because to do so would be condemning himself.

We're .500 on the last two tests.  And both...IIRC...were ship based launches.

Personally...launching an ICBM over Japan is the definition of escalation.

But as in interim measure...if it were up to me and I had the SecDef's ear...I'd tell him that if he really wanted to get the Norks attention...move 1st Brigade 2nd ID back to Korea...the reinforced version from the 90's not the watered down version that was there in the mid 2000's.  That would definitely tell them we mean business.

Not sure how that would go down with their new Liberal ROK President...but I'm sure his Generals would support it.

[driftdiver]

We're .500 on the last two tests.  And both...IIRC...were ship based launches.

Personally...launching an ICBM over Japan is the definition of escalation.

But as in interim measure...if it were up to me and I had the SecDef's ear...I'd tell him that if he really wanted to get the Norks attention...move 1st Brigade 2nd ID back to Korea...the reinforced version from the 90's not the watered down version that was there in the mid 2000's.  That would definitely tell them we mean business.

Not sure how that would go down with their new Liberal ROK President...but I'm sure his Generals would support it.

I remember the 2nd ID guys.  Spent a year attached to an army post in an Air Combat Squadron (Air Force).  Their new President seems to be pretty good.  He's really cleaning house of the corruption.    He'd probably welcome the troops as long as it was done the right way.   South Koreans are very sticky when it comes to respect.   

[thackney]

@thackney
Sure you did, by picking out the minutia I had wrong to try and discredit my post.  All while saying nothing about the things I had 100% correct.

Ya know the part that China is a huge trading partner of NK.   I've read since that 90% of NKs foreign trade is with China.    NK doesn't make any weapons at home, they get all of it from China.

So take your mealy mouthed criticism and pound sand.

Weapons manufacture is likely North Korea's largest industry.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-9637.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html
Economy - overview:
Industries:
military products; machine building, electric power, chemicals; mining (coal, iron ore, limestone, magnesite, graphite, copper, zinc, lead, and precious metals), metallurgy; textiles, food processing; tourism
{Tourism????}
Exports - commodities:
minerals, metallurgical products, manufactures (including armaments), textiles, agricultural and fishery products

North Korea's shadowy arms trade
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/18/history-north-korea-arms-dealing

Five ways North Korea gets money to build nuclear weapons
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/18/how-does-north-korea-get-money-to-build-nuclear-weapons.html
3. Weapons sales
"The North Korean economy is basically being run by its arms deals," said Anwita Basu, The Economist Intelligence Unit's lead analyst for Indonesia, the Philippines and North Korea.

[driftdiver]

Weapons manufacture is likely North Korea's largest industry.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-9637.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html
Economy - overview:
Industries:
military products; machine building, electric power, chemicals; mining (coal, iron ore, limestone, magnesite, graphite, copper, zinc, lead, and precious metals), metallurgy; textiles, food processing; tourism
{Tourism????}
Exports - commodities:
minerals, metallurgical products, manufactures (including armaments), textiles, agricultural and fishery products

North Korea's shadowy arms trade
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/18/history-north-korea-arms-dealing

Five ways North Korea gets money to build nuclear weapons
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/18/how-does-north-korea-get-money-to-build-nuclear-weapons.html
3. Weapons sales
"The North Korean economy is basically being run by its arms deals," said Anwita Basu, The Economist Intelligence Unit's lead analyst for Indonesia, the Philippines and North Korea.

Once again with the minutia while ignoring the forest.   NK could launch an ICBM tomorrow and you want to argue about how the screws are threaded.  Welcome to my ignore list.

[TomSea]

North Korean Restaurants in China Close Amid Regional Tensions

North Korean restaurants in eastern China’s Shandong province are folding amid a downturn in business from South Korean and Chinese customers, who sources say are avoiding the eating establishments due to ongoing political tensions in the region.

The sources told RFA’s Korean Service that the shuttering of North Korean eateries in Shandong’s city of Qingdao is representative of a wider trend throughout China, as the restaurants—already known for high prices, poor food, and middling entertainment—struggle to bring in diners increasingly frustrated with Pyongyang’s belligerent foreign policy.

More: http://www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/restaurants-06232017142823.html

So, I don't think people will accuse Kim of reading Norman Vincent Peale.

Saw this at TOS;

Ralph Peters: 'Messy, Bloody' Military Action Probably Required in North Korea

Retired Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters said that dealing with North Korea's expanding nuclear missile program will probably require "messy, bloody" military action by the United States.

Peters called the idea a "grand delusion" that China would choose the good will of the U.S. over what it sees as a very valuable alliance with North Korea.

"We will never see Beijing remove that regime or even bully it to the point where it threatens to destabilize the regime. Period," the retired officer said.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/07/05/north-korea-missile-nuclear-trump-ralph-peters-messy-bloody

[TomSea]

What gives me some apprehension about the future, is it does appear North Korea "could" team up with terrorists at some point, if their record is anything to go by and I'm sure we have them under surveillance concerning this.

How Iran and North Korea Became Cyber-Terror Buddies
http://www.thetower.org/article/how-iran-and-north-korea-became-cyber-terror-buddies/

Bolling: 'Iran is North Korea on HGH Steroids'
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/04/20/eric-bolling-iran-north-korea-hgh-steroids-mullahs-kim-jong-un-terrorism

[Maj. Bill Martin]

China is not going to shut off trade with NK out of the goodness of its heart.    We'd have to threaten economic Armageddon -- a complete trade boycott of any nation doing business with North Korea, to have China go that far.  As bad as that would be, it might still be better than a shooting war that would result in the deaths of huge numbers of South Korean civilians.

[driftdiver]

So, I don't think people will accuse Kim of reading Norman Vincent Peale.

Saw this at TOS;

Its a mess with no good answers.    You can't go in without approval from Japan and South Korea.  It is the couple hundred million people in those two countries that face the most risk.  If we do nothing Kim will eventually launch an ICBM at a major US city.  If we take minimal military action he will probably launch.   If its a major attack he'll probably fire everything he has at SK and Japan as well as the US. 

Then China might step in to defend NK.

[driftdiver]

What gives me some apprehension about the future, is it does appear North Korea "could" team up with terrorists at some point, if their record is anything to go by and I'm sure we have them under surveillance concerning this.

How Iran and North Korea Became Cyber-Terror Buddies
http://www.thetower.org/article/how-iran-and-north-korea-became-cyber-terror-buddies/

Bolling: 'Iran is North Korea on HGH Steroids'
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/04/20/eric-bolling-iran-north-korea-hgh-steroids-mullahs-kim-jong-un-terrorism

Could?  According to SK news they have been for years.  Anything for some cash or technology to build their nukes.

[thackney]

China is not going to shut off trade with NK out of the goodness of its heart.    We'd have to threaten economic Armageddon -- a complete trade boycott of any nation doing business with North Korea, to have China go that far.  As bad as that would be, it might still be better than a shooting war that would result in the deaths of huge numbers of South Korean civilians.

Would we be capable of stopping all Chinese Imports, or would we have to use sanctions like an import tax?

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/china-mongolia-taiwan/peoples-republic-china
U.S. goods and services trade with China totaled an estimated $648.2 billion in 2016. Exports were $169.3 billion; imports were $478.9 billion.

[txradioguy]

I remember the 2nd ID guys.  Spent a year attached to an army post in an Air Combat Squadron (Air Force).  Their new President seems to be pretty good.  He's really cleaning house of the corruption.    He'd probably welcome the troops as long as it was done the right way.   South Koreans are very sticky when it comes to respect.

It was a bigger than normal brigade when we had serious thinkers in the Pentagon...to include an Airborne Battalion and enhanced engineer assets.  By the time I got there camps such as Liberty Bell and Gary Owen had been closed and the entire Western Corridor had been shut down.

IMHO as long as we continue the current stupid rotational crap sending units for 9 months at a time the Norks will continue to do as they please because they don't take anything we say seriously.

Don't get me wrong the ROK Army has some certified bad asses...mainly in their Special Forces...but IIRC the bulk of their Army is still conscription not volunteer and as long as the rich folks can still get away with it they'll make sure their kids get into the KATUSA program and not have to serve in the ROK Army.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Would we be capable of stopping all Chinese Imports, or would we have to use sanctions like an import tax?

Either, really.  You'd just hope to hell the Chinese would think that Trump is just crazy enough to do it so you might not have to actually do it.

But it would have to be pitched as the best of three horrible choices:  1) military action that would result in hundreds of thousands of deaths, minimum, 2) hard-core economic sanctions that would disrupt our own economy but pressure the Chinese, or 3) let the nuts in NK actually put one of their nukes on top of one of their missiles, and wait to be bombed or blackmailed.

All terrible choices, but 2) seems best to me.