Author Topic: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill  (Read 9342 times)

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Offline INVAR

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #175 on: June 23, 2017, 08:52:08 pm »
INVAR, your use of scripture to justify your callous indifference to the poor and disadvantaged is the real perversion.

SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS MANDATES WE EMPOWER THE GOVERNMENT TO DO CHARITY IN OUR NAME.

Our employer-based system creates winners and losers that have nothing to do with individual virtue, just good vs. bad fortune.

And government creating 'winners' and 'losers' is more virtuous HOW?

IMO, the current system is fundamentally immoral and must be replaced with a different paradigm.

That is exactly what ALL Socialists and Marxists say.

Even single payer is preferable to the current employer-based system.   The government is, or should be, the extension of the community and its facilitator of fair and moral means of addressing the financial ruin of unanticipated health care expenses. 

Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot all agree with that exact sentiment you just expressed.

It's what all Socialists believe and champion for consumption by their victims.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #176 on: June 23, 2017, 09:03:03 pm »
If anything, as people get used to less government in the health care system, it might even make them more willing to take another step toward that goal in the future.
That sure sounds swell, but you are in fantasy land making that statement.

People will gravitate to freebies always when they can and resent those being taken away.

Instead of believing that horse will drink from that trough, one needs to try education of the horse.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #177 on: June 23, 2017, 09:05:58 pm »
Quote
The government is, or should be, the extension of the community and its facilitator of fair and moral means of addressing the financial ruin of unanticipated health care expenses. 

Hmm I've heard something similar to that before.  :pondering:

I think it goes like this:

Quote
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

Karl Marx - 1875
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #178 on: June 23, 2017, 09:06:28 pm »
Ah, Leftist Math.

OK, let's review.

You oppose this bill because it doesn't completely eliminate all government involvement in the health care industry. That is a position that literally no person in position of authority, nor anyone with a realistic chance of assuming authority, holds, and a position that has no chance of becoming official policy.

This bill reduces government involvement in the industry by removing mandates and loosening restrictions it imposed.

The alternative is no change.

This is not like the Presidential election, where there were multiple options and the Trump caucus tried to force upon us a false dilemma. This is, literally, a dilemma. You are either for it or against it.

Anybody with a basic, elementary school knowledge of math can tell that passing the bill gets one closer to your goal than not passing it. That is, unless you believe Leftist logic (the same one that says a reduced future increase is somehow a cut).

Regardless of whether the bill passes or not, the chances of reaching your goal (again, zero) do not change. If anything, as people get used to less government in the health care system, it might even make them more willing to take another step toward that goal in the future. If you are fine with tilting at windmills and letting Obamacare stand on principle, then you should have no problem still tilting at windmills if this bill passes as well.

The best we can do is keep moving, keep pushing, take every opportunity we can get, even if it is partial.

Well said, sir.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #179 on: June 23, 2017, 09:14:04 pm »
I stand corrected...Heritage...and as it turns out Conservatives didn't invent the "Individual mandate".


Quote
Nevertheless, the myth persists. ObamaCare "adopts the 'individual mandate' concept from the conservative Heritage Foundation," Jonathan Alter wrote recently in The Washington Post. MSNBC's Chris Matthews makes the same claim, asserting that Republican support of a mandate "has its roots in a proposal by the conservative Heritage Foundation." Former House speaker Nancy Pelosi and others have made similar claims.

The confusion arises from the fact that 20 years ago, I held the view that as a technical matter, some form of requirement to purchase insurance was needed in a near-universal insurance market to avoid massive instability through "adverse selection" (insurers avoiding bad risks and healthy people declining coverage). At that time, President Clinton was proposing a universal health care plan, and Heritage and I devised a viable alternative.

My view was shared at the time by many conservative experts, including American Enterprise Institute (AEI) scholars, as well as most non-conservative analysts. Even libertarian-conservative icon Milton Friedman, in a 1991 Wall Street Journal article, advocated replacing Medicare and Medicaid "with a requirement that every U.S. family unit have a major medical insurance policy."

My idea was hardly new. Heritage did not invent the individual mandate.

But the version of the health insurance mandate Heritage and I supported in the 1990s had three critical features. First, it was not primarily intended to push people to obtain protection for their own good, but to protect others. Like auto damage liability insurance required in most states, our requirement focused on "catastrophic" costs — so hospitals and taxpayers would not have to foot the bill for the expensive illness or accident of someone who did not buy insurance.

Second, we sought to induce people to buy coverage primarily through the carrot of a generous health credit or voucher, financed in part by a fundamental reform of the tax treatment of health coverage, rather than by a stick.

And third, in the legislation we helped craft that ultimately became a preferred alternative to ClintonCare, the "mandate" was actually the loss of certain tax breaks for those not choosing to buy coverage, not a legal requirement.

So why the change in this position in the past 20 years?

First, health research and advances in economic analysis have convinced people like me that an insurance mandate isn't needed to achieve stable, near-universal coverage. For example, the new field of behavioral economics taught me that default auto-enrollment in employer or nonemployer insurance plans can lead many people to buy coverage without a requirement.

Also, advances in "risk adjustment" tools are improving the stability of voluntary insurance. And Heritage-funded research on federal employees' coverage — which has no mandate — caused me to conclude we had made a mistake in the 1990s. That's why we believe that President Obama and others are dead wrong about the need for a mandate.

Additionally, the meaning of the individual mandate we are said to have "invented" has changed over time. Today it means the government makes people buy comprehensive benefits for their own good, rather than our original emphasis on protecting society from the heavy medical costs of free riders.

Moreover, I agree with my legal colleagues at Heritage that today's version of a mandate exceeds the constitutional powers granted to the federal government. Forcing those Americans not in the insurance market to purchase comprehensive insurance for themselves goes beyond even the most expansive precedents of the courts.

And there's another thing. Changing one's mind about the best policy to pursue — but not one's principles — is part of being a researcher at a major think tank such as Heritage or the Brookings Institution. Serious professional analysts actually take part in a continuous bipartisan and collegial discussion about major policy questions. We read each other's research. We look at the facts. We talk through ideas with those who agree or disagree with us. And we change our policy views over time based on new facts, new research or good counterarguments.



https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-02-03/health-individual-mandate-reform-heritage/52951140/1
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #180 on: June 23, 2017, 09:21:53 pm »
You oppose this bill because it doesn't completely eliminate all government involvement in the health care industry. That is a position that literally no person in position of authority, nor anyone with a realistic chance of assuming authority, holds, and a position that has no chance of becoming official policy.

I oppose the bill because it is NOT what the GOP promised if we would but give them the House and the Senate and the Presidency.  I oppose the bill because it simply transfers ownership of Statism to the GOP and permanently cements Socialism as our ideological form of government.

This bill reduces government involvement in the industry by removing mandates and loosening restrictions it imposed.

I do not want it 'reduced' - I want it gone, as they all promised.  Some of us are not ignorant of history and we full-well understand that leaving any part of this Obamanation intact, makes it a permanent agency and program of the federal Beast.  As Reagan said, it is the closest thing to eternal life we will see on this earth.  The longer it remains, the more permanent it becomes and the more it will grow and be added to.

You either cut out the cancer completely - or it comes back with a greater vengeance and kills the patient altogether.  This particular cancer infects every major organ of liberty, and leaving any of it in the system will kill any liberty that remains.

Period.

End of sentence.


The alternative is no change.

The alternative it to let it collapse as it was designed to do, and prepare the private market to take over fill the void that the ACA invaded in the first place.

This is, literally, a dilemma. You are either for it or against it.

I am against anything that leaves Socialism intact or in place, no matter the amount.  Root and branch - that is what they promised to do in removing it.  I expect that promise to be fulfilled.

Anybody with a basic, elementary school knowledge of math can tell that passing the bill gets one closer to your goal than not passing it.

Show me one government entitlement that has ever been shrunk and eliminated.

Regardless of whether the bill passes or not, the chances of reaching your goal (again, zero) do not change.

I have no faith that the government will reduce itself or the power and control over everything in life that they seek to 'manage'.  It's all kabuki theater.  Reintroduce the bills they presented in 2015 and pass those, as those were exactly what they promised to do.

If anything, as people get used to less government in the health care system, it might even make them more willing to take another step toward that goal in the future.

There is nothing in recent history to give any credence to that supposition beyond wishful thinking.  In fact, just the opposite is true.  People will always choose a hand-out and a subsidy over providing for themselves.   People want MORE government involvement, not less. 

If you are fine with tilting at windmills and letting Obamacare stand on principle, then you should have no problem still tilting at windmills if this bill passes as well.
The best we can do is keep moving, keep pushing, take every opportunity we can get, even if it is partial.

I consider that to be nothing more than practicing insanity.  When the GOP is promoting better managed socialism - it is become self evident that absolutely no moving, pushing or opportunity to move into a Conservative direction has happened despite all the promises and pleas to take what breadcrumbs we can manage to beg for.

We either throw off these bonds of Statism and Socialism now, or we will be subjugated by them.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #181 on: June 23, 2017, 09:26:06 pm »
INVAR, your use of scripture to justify your callous indifference to the poor and disadvantaged is the real perversion. 


It would be hard to find one more dedicated to the poor and disadvantaged than @INVAR .
I doubt very much that you, or any but a very few on this board has walked that walk like INVAR.
Your pique has gotten the better of you.

You may not like what he says to you, but you cannot assail his charity. REAL, on-the-ground, rubber-hits-the-road charity.

Not merely mouthing socialism and accrediting charity with other peoples money and time.

Quote
The inability of so many to access affordable health insurance is the direct result of government policy that favors those of us fortunate enough to have jobs with the "right" employers [...]

Your statement alludes to the false idea that access to health insurance is access to care.
Remove the risk, remove the reward.
Rising socialism lowers all boats. I don't know why anyone can't figure that out.

Quote
Relying on "God to provide" is a cruel hoax.   

No, the hoax lies before you in relying on the feral government as the benefactor and arbiter of charity.


Offline austingirl

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #182 on: June 23, 2017, 09:44:18 pm »
I oppose the bill because it is NOT what the GOP promised if we would but give them the House and the Senate and the Presidency.  I oppose the bill because it simply transfers ownership of Statism to the GOP and permanently cements Socialism as our ideological form of government.

I do not want it 'reduced' - I want it gone, as they all promised.  Some of us are not ignorant of history and we full-well understand that leaving any part of this Obamanation intact, makes it a permanent agency and program of the federal Beast.  As Reagan said, it is the closest thing to eternal life we will see on this earth.  The longer it remains, the more permanent it becomes and the more it will grow and be added to.

You either cut out the cancer completely - or it comes back with a greater vengeance and kills the patient altogether.  This particular cancer infects every major organ of liberty, and leaving any of it in the system will kill any liberty that remains.

Period.

End of sentence.

The alternative it to let it collapse as it was designed to do, and prepare the private market to take over fill the void that the ACA invaded in the first place.

I am against anything that leaves Socialism intact or in place, no matter the amount.  Root and branch - that is what they promised to do in removing it.  I expect that promise to be fulfilled.

Show me one government entitlement that has ever been shrunk and eliminated.

I have no faith that the government will reduce itself or the power and control over everything in life that they seek to 'manage'.  It's all kabuki theater.  Reintroduce the bills they presented in 2015 and pass those, as those were exactly what they promised to do.

There is nothing in recent history to give any credence to that supposition beyond wishful thinking.  In fact, just the opposite is true.  People will always choose a hand-out and a subsidy over providing for themselves.   People want MORE government involvement, not less. 

I consider that to be nothing more than practicing insanity.  When the GOP is promoting better managed socialism - it is become self evident that absolutely no moving, pushing or opportunity to move into a Conservative direction has happened despite all the promises and pleas to take what breadcrumbs we can manage to beg for.

We either throw off these bonds of Statism and Socialism now, or we will be subjugated by them.

Bravo! Excellent post!
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #183 on: June 23, 2017, 10:21:03 pm »
It would be hard to find one more dedicated to the poor and disadvantaged than @INVAR .
I doubt very much that you, or any but a very few on this board has walked that walk like INVAR.

Thank you @roamer_1 for that.   It is a ministry I have been made a steward of, and I work on a daily basis to make provisions for the least people on earth as they are measured.






« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 10:28:47 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #184 on: June 23, 2017, 10:27:19 pm »
Thank you @roamer_1 for that.   It is a ministry I have been made a steward of, and I work on a daily basis to make provisions for the least people on earth as they are measured.

Rock on, brother! And you know which Rock I mean...  :seeya:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 10:27:40 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline EC

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #185 on: June 23, 2017, 10:33:11 pm »
Thank you @roamer_1 for that.   It is a ministry I have been made a steward of, and I work on a daily basis to make provisions for the least people on earth as they are measured.

Always had a fondness for people who aren't too fussed about getting their hands dirty. Its kinda hard not to, if you really are pulling people out of the shit.  :beer:

Dalits, I take it?
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #186 on: June 23, 2017, 10:44:29 pm »
Always had a fondness for people who aren't too fussed about getting their hands dirty. Its kinda hard not to, if you really are pulling people out of the shit.  :beer:

Dalits, I take it?

Adhi Andrah - from Andrah Pradesh - but yes, Dalits.  Untouchables.

I watched a 30 year-old man beat a 70 year old widow nearly to death because her shadow touched him while he sat drinking sipliquoir on a stair to one of the thousands of temples that dot the tiny area I serve in.

Christians find themselves below even the low castes, and in India - caste is everything.  There is no advancement out of the caste you are born into - not by merit or work.  The entire society will ensure you remain at the bottom of the cesspool, because in Hindu belief - they must pay the penalty for the sins of their past lives until reincarnated into a better caste.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 10:44:59 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Free Vulcan

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #187 on: June 24, 2017, 02:11:52 am »
There are, in the real world, three effective choices:

1.  Keep ObamaCare

2.  Fix ObamaCare along the lines proposed by the House and Senate

3.  Single payer

So what's it going to be, conservatives?     If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

None of the numbers add up for any of those plans. They are all destined to go bankrupt.

So are we going to just settle for a politcal solution, or something that actually works?
The Republic is lost.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #188 on: June 24, 2017, 02:33:39 am »
Thank you @roamer_1 for that.   It is a ministry I have been made a steward of, and I work on a daily basis to make provisions for the least people on earth as they are measured.
...

Invar, that's beautiful.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #189 on: June 24, 2017, 03:14:57 am »
There are, in the real world, three effective choices:

1.  Keep ObamaCare

2.  Fix ObamaCare along the lines proposed by the House and Senate

3.  Single payer

So what's it going to be, conservatives?     If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

See:  False Dilemma

Of course there is Option 4 which is GET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THE HELL OUT OF THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY.  Then we can reap the benefits of a free market - more choices, lower cost, more freedom.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #190 on: June 24, 2017, 03:27:11 am »
See:  False Dilemma

Of course there is Option 4 which is GET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THE HELL OUT OF THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY.  Then we can reap the benefits of a free market - more choices, lower cost, more freedom.

Option 4 please! 
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