Author Topic: Pirro Blasts GOP: 'You're In Power - Do Something' to Pass Trump Agenda  (Read 12540 times)

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Offline Farish

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You postulate that by 2016 the problem was all cleaned up?   


Not following your thinking here.

Just sayin' there's no current data to support Trump's claims.  :shrug:
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Offline Farish

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Who could?  That's why they call them progressives.

 :wtf!:

Not following your thinking here...
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Offline anubias

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:wtf!:

Not following your thinking here...


Not surprised.

Offline Farish

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Not surprised.

So are you saying a conservative is incapable of understanding a progressive argument? As a progressive, I may not always agree with conservative positions, but that doesn't mean I don't understand them.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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So are you saying a conservative is incapable of understanding a progressive argument? As a progressive, I may not always agree with conservative positions, but that doesn't mean I don't understand them.
No, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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My understanding of the NRA position is that they will work to defeat anyone of either party who backstabs them on gun legislation.   In the primary and in the General as well.   That was what we did in 1994,  and if the policy changed,  I wasn't aware of it.

No, the NRA never did that.  They have never, ever backed someone who was bad on gun control just to get back at a "backstabber".  They do primary challenges, and withhold support in the general.  But they don't actively assist anti-gun people.

If you're going to say they did, you ought to give at least one example of that.  I can't think of any.

Online Bigun

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No, the NRA never did that.  They have never, ever backed someone who was bad on gun control just to get back at a "backstabber".  They do primary challenges, and withhold support in the general.  But they don't actively assist anti-gun people.

If you're going to say they did, you ought to give at least one example of that.  I can't think of any.

BS!!!  And I KNOW from first hand experience!   I gave them back a life membership because they did exactly that to me!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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BS!!!  And I KNOW from first hand experience!   I gave them back a life membership because they did exactly that to me!

In which specific election did they back a Democrat with a bad rating on gun rights?

Offline roamer_1

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BS!!!  And I KNOW from first hand experience!   I gave them back a life membership because they did exactly that to me!

I will concur - Not me, but those I have worked to put into office...
They support Republican moderates.

I lend more credence to the GOA.

Online Bigun

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In which specific election did they back a Democrat with a bad rating on gun rights?

1994 Texas House District 18.  The democrat incumbent voted against concealed carry three separate times but his former colleague and then NRA area rep got him endorsed over me!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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I will concur - Not me, but those I have worked to put into office...
They support Republican moderates.

I lend more credence to the GOA.
GOA, CCRKBA both will take more 'extreme'* positions while the NRA is more middle of the road.

*"Extreme just being in support of a literal interpretation of the RKBA which, by convention and decades of brainwashing, people have become unaccustomed to. Who would it be hurting if I had a fully functional Boys (anti tank) rifle and ammo? No one.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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GOA, CCRKBA both will take more 'extreme'* positions while the NRA is more middle of the road.

*"Extreme just being in support of a literal interpretation of the RKBA which, by convention and decades of brainwashing, people have become unaccustomed to. Who would it be hurting if I had a fully functional Boys (anti tank) rifle and ammo? No one.

That's right - And an organization that claims to preserve a right should in fact be 'extreme' in the defense thereof. JMO.

Offline Smokin Joe

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That's right - And an organization that claims to preserve a right should in fact be 'extreme' in the defense thereof. JMO.
The calculus of it all is that the NRA can say "You think we are extreme, but we're middle of the road" and point. And balance out the demands of the liberals with something more 'extreme'. In reality, the Right is a Right, and nothing less than the uninfringed and full exercise of that right should be tolerated.

However, the NRA has mastered something the GOP has not. How to make a simple, conservative position appear more progressive than it is. The GOP routinely attacks the more Conservative elements, placing itself as 'extreme' by removing that balance. Then it 'compromises' by becoming even more liberal, also guaranteeing another crop of 'extremists' to attack, who just stuck to the positions they had in the first place. It is costing the GOP in terms of donations, and I believe, with this next election, if promises made aren't made good on, it will cost even more.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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The NRA represents a broad-based group of gun owners.  Not just the extremists who think the right exists to overthrow the gummint.   Plenty of gun owners use their guns for sport or self-defense, and recognize the need for certain kinds of reasonable regulations,  aimed at improving individual or public safety.   Plenty of gun owners reside in the larger community,  not in bunkers.   
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Offline roamer_1

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The NRA represents a broad-based group of gun owners.  Not just the extremists who think the right exists to overthrow the gummint.   Plenty of gun owners use their guns for sport or self-defense, and recognize the need for certain kinds of reasonable regulations,  aimed at improving individual or public safety.   Plenty of gun owners reside in the larger community,  not in bunkers.   

Riiiight. Because it is very important for us to have moderating, wishy-washy defense of our philosophy... Only liberals are allowed ardent unwavering defense of their philosophy...

Idiocy.

Offline Smokin Joe

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The NRA represents a broad-based group of gun owners.  Not just the extremists who think the right exists to overthrow the gummint.   Plenty of gun owners use their guns for sport or self-defense, and recognize the need for certain kinds of reasonable regulations,  aimed at improving individual or public safety.   Plenty of gun owners reside in the larger community,  not in bunkers.   
Gunowners comprise a complete spectrum of folks, from those who just have shotguns for upland bird hunting to those who collect militaria to the enthusiasts who like even larger items or collect military vehicles (some of which you may have seen in movies). It is a widely diverse spectrum of interests that range from self defense and tactical, to hunting to other forms of competition, to collecting. One thing should be remembered, though that regardless of what sort of firearms are involved, gone are the days when gun owners are able to be split along the lines of one type or style. An attack on any of us is an attack on all of us, whether we just bop down to the old gravel pit to plink at cans with a .22 or rent tanks to Hollywood producers to make movies, we'll stand up for each other. Anyone who breaks ranks and goes over to the 'dark side' will be shunned like Lon Horiuchi.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline truth_seeker

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The NRA represents a broad-based group of gun owners.  Not just the extremists who think the right exists to overthrow the gummint.   Plenty of gun owners use their guns for sport or self-defense, and recognize the need for certain kinds of reasonable regulations,  aimed at improving individual or public safety.   Plenty of gun owners reside in the larger community,  not in bunkers.   

Not just the extremists who think the right exists to overthrow the gummint.

Why are those  people "extremists?" In the context of the founding, such concerns were very real.

That fact we have enjoyed over two centuries, largely devoid of domestic violence and revolution, may well be due to the guns in the hands of the citizenry.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline roamer_1

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Why are those  people "extremists?" In the context of the founding, such concerns were very real.


As a matter of raw fact, that was the very point of the enumerated right.

Offline Jazzhead

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Not just the extremists who think the right exists to overthrow the gummint.

Why are those  people "extremists?" In the context of the founding, such concerns were very real.

That fact we have enjoyed over two centuries, largely devoid of domestic violence and revolution, may well be due to the guns in the hands of the citizenry.

Try giving the credit to the Constitution.   Alone among nations, we have a two-centuries-plus tradition of respecting the peaceful transition of power in accordance with the expressed will of the people.   (In the one exception, in 1860, I'll concede that guns certainly played their part - over a half million dead - but the perpetrators were armies, not renegade citizens.)     

Anyone who advocates the overthrow of the Constitution by means of the citizenry brandishing their private arms is an extremist to me.  One such nut almost shot dead a dozen members of Congress a week and a half ago.   I support the gun right, because it codifies the natural right of personal self defense.   That is why is it valuable, that is why it must be preserved.   Not all gun owners believe they need guns in order to exercise their political power, to "use" on "perverts" and others with whom they disagree.   The conditions faced by the Founders are not the conditions of today.  I can defend the gun right, but not for the cockamamie notion that guns are our defense against the IRS.       
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Offline roamer_1

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The conditions faced by the Founders are not the conditions of today.   

They are exactly the same as today. Tyranny is always and ever just around the corner.

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Try giving the credit to the Constitution.   Alone among nations, we have a two-centuries-plus tradition of respecting the peaceful transition of power in accordance with the expressed will of the people.   (In the one exception, in 1860, I'll concede that guns certainly played their part - over a half million dead - but the perpetrators were armies, not renegade citizens.)     

Anyone who advocates the overthrow of the Constitution by means of the citizenry brandishing their private arms is an extremist to me.  One such nut almost shot dead a dozen members of Congress a week and a half ago.   I support the gun right, because it codifies the natural right of personal self defense.   That is why is it valuable, that is why it must be preserved.   Not all gun owners believe they need guns in order to exercise their political power, to "use" on "perverts" and others with whom they disagree.   The conditions faced by the Founders are not the conditions of today.  I can defend the gun right, but not for the cockamamie notion that guns are our defense against the IRS.       

What's the difference between a bunch of renegade citizens and a militia?  Weren't the Founders, from the perspective of the British sovereign, which had clear power over the colonies, just a bunch of renegade citizens?  Or renegade subjects, if one will?

Offline EC

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Alone among nations, we have a two-centuries-plus tradition of respecting the peaceful transition of power in accordance with the expressed will of the people.


Um .... our most recent civil war was in 1688 .....
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Try giving the credit to the Constitution.   Alone among nations, we have a two-centuries-plus tradition of respecting the peaceful transition of power in accordance with the expressed will of the people.   (In the one exception, in 1860, I'll concede that guns certainly played their part - over a half million dead - but the perpetrators were armies, not renegade citizens.)     
Oh, I give credit to the Constitution, less so to those sworn to uphold it. It is a government designed for a moral people.

 As for peaceful transitions of power, four presidents were assassinated (Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley and John F. Kennedy), and another six had attempts on their lives. (Andrew Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan.) Considering there have only been 44 US presidents, that's an almost 10% killed in office rate, and nearly 25% that people tried, successfully or not to assassinate. So much for "peaceful transition of power". English monarchs have a better track record these past 200 years.
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Anyone who advocates the overthrow of the Constitution by means of the citizenry brandishing their private arms is an extremist to me.
Me, too. One who would rather use a writ than a rifle is no less an extremist, they just don't like the thought of getting gun oil on their suit. But we aren't talking about the RKBA to overthrow the Constitution, and that wasn't the Founders' intent, rather to enforce the Constitution, To protect and defend it when the government would either not do so, or when it refused to abide by that compact. Therein is the protection against tyranny.
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One such nut almost shot dead a dozen members of Congress a week and a half ago.
One nut shot one Congressman, one lobbyist, a congressional aide, and two Capitol Hill Police Officers. "Almost" doesn't count, although I will readily acknowledge the outcome could have been different without armed officers present as part of Rep Scalise's security detail. The only counter to an armed maniac, is arms.
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  I support the gun right, because it codifies the natural right of personal self defense.   That is why is it valuable, that is why it must be preserved.   Not all gun owners believe they need guns in order to exercise their political power, to "use" on "perverts" and others with whom they disagree.
Most of us don't see the need to exercise force on those with whom we merely disagree. Come after my family, my person, my stuff, and we have a different situation. A gun might not be necessary: at times a baseball bat would suffice, or a pick handle. You and I know no one in their right mind is out hunting down perverts unless they have a specific beef with a specific pervert, something ideally left to police. But what if the police refuse to pursue the matter, if the person involved is a "somebody" in the local scheme of things? It does happen.
There is the old saying, "If the law won't take care of it, it's just us."
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   The conditions faced by the Founders are not the conditions of today.  I can defend the gun right, but not for the cockamamie notion that guns are our defense against the IRS.     
Actually, one of the salient beefs about King George III and the colonial governors was over taxes. "No taxation without representation" was a common complaint.The burning of two tea ships in Annapolis harbor, the Boston Tea Party, the ruckus over Stamp Act, all were disputes over taxation. Even the War between the States was over (to a large degree) taxation. Every war, with rare exception, has economics as one of its roots, often the taproot of the upheaval, and taxes reach into the rich soil of an economy to leach it of the nutrients needed to make that economy grow. When that burden becomes too great, rebellion is common in history. We even teach our kids of "Robin Hood" who stole from the rich (actually tax collectors) to redistribute to the poor (return their money). The fable has been gradually altered to justify the socialist vote buying of government using a progressive income tax. And crossbow, longbow, pike, spear, sword, dagger, and quarterstaff were all arms, too.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Actually, one of the salient beefs about King George III and the colonial governors was over taxes. "No taxation without representation" was a common complaint.The burning of two tea ships in Annapolis harbor, the Boston Tea Party, the ruckus over Stamp Act, all were disputes over taxation. Even the War between the States was over (to a large degree) taxation. .

@Smokin Joe
It would be interesting to compare the tax rate then to the burden we have now... Today, both the husband and the wife work from January to July just to pay taxes - I wonder how that stands up to the rate which drove our forefathers to rebel.

Offline Smokin Joe

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@Smokin Joe
It would be interesting to compare the tax rate then to the burden we have now... Today, both the husband and the wife work from January to July just to pay taxes - I wonder how that stands up to the rate which drove our forefathers to rebel.
IIRC, the Crown was demanding something close to three percent (total), based on the consumption of tea, tobacco, and printed materials. It is tough to gauge overall, but the Townshend Acts were the worst, Although the Tea tax, Sugar Tax, and Stamp Act are probably better known. All were tariffs, collected on cargoes as they were unloaded.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:35:28 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis