Massachusetts texting suicide verdict; woman found guilty of manslaughter

[Suppressed]

Many suicide attempts are calls for help.   Most expressions of a desire to commit suicide are calls for help.

It's not like this was a parasuicidal attempt.

He had a history of suicide attempts.  It's not like he hadn't had "help".

Sadly, in some cases, we aren't that good at overcoming such things as depression.  Often, there is no successful "help". 

[driftdiver]

It's not like this was a parasuicidal attempt.

He had a history of suicide attempts.  It's not like he hadn't had "help".

Sadly, in some cases, we aren't that good at overcoming such things as depression.  Often, there is no successful "help".

So?  Is that supposed to excuse this and turn her into a good human being?

[bigheadfred]

He's expressed a desire to die.  She was helping him to reach his goal, encouraging him when he faltered.

*Many* suicide attempts are aborted, or fail from intervention.  ...And those people very often try again and succeed.  She helped him reach his goal in a first attempt, like a coach.

Right. And as it being a team effort a lot of the onus for the success of the failure is on the coach's shoulders.

[truth_seeker]

He's expressed a desire to die.  She was helping him to reach his goal, encouraging him when he faltered.

*Many* suicide attempts are aborted, or fail from intervention.  ...And those people very often try again and succeed.  She helped him reach his goal in a first attempt, like a coach.

How about if he "expressed a desire" to kill his parents? Or rob a bank?

She should NOT have assisted him towards his purpose, since the "goal" to use your word is illegal and immoral.

You say it like "that is what friends are for" as if suicide is a reasonable "goal."

[RoosGirl]

Fair enough. I don't know what the testimony was in the trial.  Perhaps I'm wrong about the specific situation.

Still, I don't know that I like the idea that someone can be held responsible for convincing another adult of something, openly.  Can a salesman be convicted because I was weak and bought something I shouldn't have bought?  I know the Left believes that, with loans, etc.

I agree with you on this.  I don't know all of the details of the trial, and while I agree with others that this girl is a miserable excuse for a human being for telling him to kill himself, I also don't like the idea of putting the blame on someone else for a stupid decision an adult makes for himself.

[Suppressed]

How about if he "expressed a desire" to kill his parents? Or rob a bank?

She should NOT have assisted him towards his purpose, since the "goal" to use your word is illegal and immoral.

Those things you used as examples are.  Suicide is not.

You say it like "that is what friends are for" as if suicide is a reasonable "goal."

If someone does not like his life, then the use of reason would indeed suggest ending it.  Maybe you think people should be forced to live their lives for others, but I'm of the deeply held belief that a person's life doesn't belong to the State or anyone else. If he chooses to end it, then who am I to say, "No, you can't escape...
 By my own whim, I want you to stick around and endure torment"?

[Smokin Joe]

Those things you used as examples are.  Suicide is not.

If someone does not like his life, then the use of reason would indeed suggest ending it.  Maybe you think people should be forced to live their lives for others, but I'm of the deeply held belief that a person's life doesn't belong to the State or anyone else. If he chooses to end it, then who am I to say, "No, you can't escape...
 By my own whim, I want you to stick around and endure torment"?
[/quote} We're going to disagree on this one. The world would be a lonely place if people just started killing themselves the minute they didn't like their lives.
Reason would say that changing it is possible while you are alive, but if you die at the miserable moment, you will die miserable. End. Of. Story.
When you're going through Hell, that is no time to stop.

[Rivergirl]

Some of the cold hearted comments on this thread are disturbing in their lack of compassion for the young man.

[Sanguine]

Some of the cold hearted comments on this thread are disturbing in their lack of compassion for the young man.

I think some people are making the mistaken assumption that he was in his right mind and capable of reason.  If that were true, I could see how they would thing what they think.

[Oceander]

She stepped over the line. 

[bigheadfred]

@Rivergirl  @Sanguine

How is this any different from other similar criminal acts? It isn't.

Inciting a riot is a felonious act.

Inciting a death should be also.

[Sanguine]

@Rivergirl  @Sanguine

How is this any different from other similar criminal acts? It isn't.

Inciting a riot is a felonious act.

Inciting a death should be also.

You'd think so.

[Rivergirl]

Is it necessary to ask that if any of you ever encounter someone who thinks suicide is the answer to their problems you would do all in your power to convince the person that they deserve to live and are worthy of being loved.

[Right_in_Virginia]

She was guilty of "taunting and goading."

Combine taunting and goading with not calling 911 and the verdict is solid, IMO.

She went well beyond even depraved indifference.

[Suppressed]

Some of the cold hearted comments on this thread are disturbing in their lack of compassion for the young man.

Agreed, @Rivergirl.

He was obviously in a great deal of pain/anguish, to resort to attempting to take his own life, and it was an unrelenting anguish, evident by the multiple attempts. 

I think many people have very low capacity for empathy and just can't feel for this troubled soul.

[Suppressed]

Is it necessary to ask that if any of you ever encounter someone who thinks suicide is the answer to their problems you would do all in your power to convince the person that they deserve to live and are worthy of being loved.

I have dealt with hundreds of suicidal people.  I can tell you that in most cases "deserving to live" and "worthy of being loved" aren't the things that they feel they lack.  Yes, those are present in many.  But not all.  So we must look at each person individually to see his needs, what is lacking in his life.

The problem is, in some cases, we have no way to fulfill that person's life.

And in those cases, who are we to say someone must continue an existence of pain, just so we feel better by having them here? 

Everyone should ask himself: If your friend really didn't want to go out to the bars, but you did, are you the type to insist the friend goes just because you want it?  Would you insist they see the movie you want to see but they don't?  Then why make them live a life they don't want?   Try to convince them all we can, but in the end...it's not our decision, it's theirs.


(BTW, just this morning, I got a call that a friend's estranged husband took his life.  She is devastated.  So I'm not unaware of the effects on others.)

[Oceander]

I have dealt with hundreds of suicidal people.  I can tell you that in most cases "deserving to live" and "worthy of being loved" aren't the things that they feel they lack.  Yes, those are present in many.  But not all.  So we must look at each person individually to see his needs, what is lacking in his life.

The problem is, in some cases, we have no way to fulfill that person's life.

And in those cases, who are we to say someone must continue an existence of pain, just so we feel better by having them here? 

Everyone should ask himself: If your friend really didn't want to go out to the bars, but you did, are you the type to insist the friend goes just because you want it?  Would you insist they see the movie you want to see but they don't?  Then why make them live a life they don't want?   Try to convince them all we can, but in the end...it's not our decision, it's theirs.


(BTW, just this morning, I got a call that a friend's estranged husband took his life.  She is devastated.  So I'm not unaware of the effects on others.)

Maybe so, but there are very good countervailing reasons for punishing someone who actively goads someone else into killing themselves.  Whether he was or was not the type you describe - we'll never really know in part thanks to her - does not justify or excuse what she did. 

[truth_seeker]

I have dealt with hundreds of suicidal people. I can tell you that in most cases "deserving to live" and "worthy of being loved" aren't the things that they feel they lack.  Yes, those are present in many.  But not all.  So we must look at each person individually to see his needs, what is lacking in his life.

The problem is, in some cases, we have no way to fulfill that person's life.

And in those cases, who are we to say someone must continue an existence of pain, just so we feel better by having them here? 

Everyone should ask himself: If your friend really didn't want to go out to the bars, but you did, are you the type to insist the friend goes just because you want it?  Would you insist they see the movie you want to see but they don't?  Then why make them live a life they don't want?   Try to convince them all we can, but in the end...it's not our decision, it's theirs.


(BTW, just this morning, I got a call that a friend's estranged husband took his life.  She is devastated.  So I'm not unaware of the effects on others.)

I have dealt with hundreds of suicidal people.

That is a big claim. If true, and you feel the answer is helping them commit suicide, you should begin taking yourself away, out of the picture and let others instead, with better judgment and solutions steer them away from suicide.

[bigheadfred]

Agreed, @Rivergirl.

He was obviously in a great deal of pain/anguish, to resort to attempting to take his own life, and it was an unrelenting anguish, evident by the multiple attempts. 

I think many people have very low capacity for empathy and just can't feel for this troubled soul.

That is what it is. They are reptiles. I know I can't speak for everyone here. But I personally don't know anyone who hasn't had a suicide, or the attempt thereof, not affect their lives.

For the past several years a Santa has stopped by to give out some gifts to the grandkids. He is a local church leader and so I put it down to that type of humanitarian thing. This year the g-kids were here when he came by. We stepped outside to thank him when he left. He said I want to thank you. For your son. He told us several years ago his own son had had a gun to his head and our son talked him out of it. He told us he didn't think he could ever thank our son enough.

@Rivergirl

[Suppressed]

I have dealt with hundreds of suicidal people.

That is a big claim. If true, and you feel the answer is helping them commit suicide, you should begin taking yourself away, out of the picture and let others instead, with better judgment and solutions steer them away from suicide.

Thanks for your concern, but you'll be glad to know that wasn't the context.  I've actually managed to find solutions/help for many.   Like the girl who had trichotillomania, and I got her to ask her boss for time off to see a doc about it.  An SSRI helped her out, and it turned out that her boss was a sufferer, too, and completely understanding.  This is one example of what I mentioned above, that pat answers don't always cut it. 

[Suppressed]

Maybe so, but there are very good countervailing reasons for punishing someone who actively goads someone else into killing themselves.  Whether he was or was not the type you describe - we'll never really know in part thanks to her - does not justify or excuse what she did.

Yes, we weren't in the courtroom to know the evidence presented.  And then there's reality, beyond the rules of evidence.

[Gefn]

I volunteered on a suicide line after a friend of mine suicided.

I did it because I considered it penance.if my friend had called me that night I would have walked through hell with him to help him.

I know I've saved lives. I also know that placing people on 72 hour holds rarely helps anymore, hospitals are understaffed and they over medicate.

There's no real easy answer here. Living through a bought of Churchill's black dog is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. The system to help people right now is sorely broken. And people have been suiciding since the Old Testament.

I don't know what the answer is when you've exhamined your life and come to the conclusion it's not worth living. Or the pain from depression gets so bad you don't know how to make it stop.

[Oceander]

Yes, we weren't in the courtroom to know the evidence presented.  And then there's reality, beyond the rules of evidence.

No, in reality we'll never know.  It may be fine to allow people to commit suicide - i believe for the most part it's no longer criminal - but it is not ok to allow somebody to materially "assist" a suicide, and definitely not ok for someone to goad someone else into committing suicide, particularly not under these circumstances.  What she did was morally and ethically wrong - she crossed the line - and there is nothing wrong with punishing her for it under applicable criminal law. 

[Suppressed]

I volunteered on a suicide line after a friend of mine suicided.

I did it because I considered it penance.if my friend had called me that night I would have walked through hell with him to help him.

Good for you!  There's always a need, and it's great that you stepped in and served.

I know I've saved lives. I also know that placing people on 72 hour holds rarely helps anymore, hospitals are understaffed and they over medicate.

Truth is, we don't have a lot of help for some people, and throwing medications at it is a bit of desperation.  It's not like a broken bone they can set and know they're doing the right thing.  Talk therapy combined with medications is best for most people, but it doesn't fix all.

There's no real easy answer here. Living through a bought of Churchill's black dog is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. The system to help people right now is sorely broken. And people have been suiciding since the Old Testament.

Yup.   

I don't know what the answer is when you've exhamined your life and come to the conclusion it's not worth living. Or the pain from depression gets so bad you don't know how to make it stop.

And that's the honest answer...we don't know.

[Suppressed]

but it is not ok to allow somebody to materially "assist" a suicide

I strongly disagree.  No...very strongly.

definitely not ok for someone to goad someone else into committing suicide, particularly not under these circumstances.

If we assume "these circumstances" includes malice, then I agree.  But if he had wanted her encouragement when his courage wavered, then she was just helping a friend.  Some people tie their hands behind their back before hanging.  Some people form suicide pacts with another.  There are various ways people have to overcome instinct to do what they want.  If that involves help from a friend, who are we to say no?

What she did was morally and ethically wrong - she crossed the line - and there is nothing wrong with punishing her for it under applicable criminal law.

Put a giant "If" in front of that sentence, and we're in agreement.