Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations

[Bigun]

Perhaps some need to quit living in fantasy land.

You can only pass legislation for which you have 50 votes in the Senate. The "perfect" conservative bill....or a full repeal with no strings...cannot get 50 votes under any circumstance. Getting 50 votes for a bill akin to what the House passed is going to be incredibly tough as well...but at least it has a chance. That is the parameter of the possible...and it stands in contrast to the parameters of fantasyland within which many of you seem to be residing.

If we do nothing, as some here suggest, the economy likely collapses. Thanks to the collapse of Ocare and the ensuing government shutdown as the GOP refuses to pass anything other than the "perfect", conservative approved bill (despite not having 50 conservative votes to do so) we will endure a fiscal meltdown of epic proportions. The tag of failing to govern and collapsing the economy will stick to the GOP entirely...as they were in power when this event happens....unfair, but that's the way it is in politics. Those who want to play "I don't own it" are plain wrong....maybe you didn't buy it, but its yours regardless, and the media will label this the "conservative" economic collapse of 2018.

If you want single payer and a generation of liberal governance....your approach is going to achieve your goal in sensational fashion. That's not hyperbole, its just the obvious end of a fiasco in which "conservatives" will only vote for a bill that can only get 40 or so votes in the Senate. Its idiocy....at a stupendous level. Worse, its not even principled because it directly creates a huge shift to the Left in this country...sabotaging every issue conservatives care about.

The Moral narcissism of SOME conservatives is going to bring down this Republic...mark my words...and turn it into a liberal theocracy that will be a daily living nightmare. For gosh sakes, at least have the sense to follow in Ted Cruz's footsteps and push this bill through...more improvements can be made over time. A minor victory sure as hell Trumps a crushing and likely permanent defeat, which is precisely where you folks are taking us if this bill fails.

"I was not elected to continue a failed system. I was elected to CHANGE IT."

Donald J. Trump

And so were you lily livered republican cowards currently serving in congress!

[roamer_1]

The Moral narcissism of SOME conservatives is going to bring down this Republic...mark my words...and turn it into a liberal theocracy that will be a daily living nightmare. For gosh sakes, at least have the sense to follow in Ted Cruz's footsteps and push this bill through...more improvements can be made over time. A minor victory sure as hell Trumps a crushing and likely permanent defeat, which is precisely where you folks are taking us if this bill fails.

Y'all should just stop advertising Conservatism. Y'all should just change the party platform to reflect the lukewarm pablum you really stand for... At least we'd have truth in advertising, and we'd actually see if a 'moderate' espousing 'moderation' could get elected *at all*.

This bill will fail, whether it passes or not. We are heading for single payer one way or another unless the primary principle - That government has no business being in health care - Is upheld.

It isn't a matter of getting 70% of anything we want. What we want, is government out of health care. What we want is free market principles. What we want is a minimalist and federalist government. NONE of that is in this bill, and NONE of that is being supported by Republicans, despite what they SAY they are for.
 
This is just so much kabuki theater on our way to yet another overweening federal monolith espousing socialist utopia. And all the appeasement, half measures, and compromise in the world isn't going to stop it.

[truth_seeker]

Donald J. Trump

And so were you lily livered republican cowards currently serving in congress!

The thing is, you gotta go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.

Be glad our side is on offense, and get what you can on each play.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Y'all should just stop advertising Conservatism. Y'all should just change the party platform to reflect the lukewarm pablum you really stand for... At least we'd have truth in advertising, and we'd actually see if a 'moderate' espousing 'moderation' could get elected *at all*.

This bill will fail, whether it passes or not. We are heading for single payer one way or another unless the primary principle - That government has no business being in health care - Is upheld.

It isn't a matter of getting 70% of anything we want. What we want, is government out of health care. What we want is free market principles. What we want is a minimalist and federalist government. NONE of that is in this bill, and NONE of that is being supported by Republicans, despite what they SAY they are for.
 
This is just so much kabuki theater on our way to yet another overweening federal monolith espousing socialist utopia. And all the appeasement, half measures, and compromise in the world isn't going to stop it.

Well said.

Throwing hands in the air to surrender when you are armed is not the way to go.

[RoosGirl]

What we want, is government out of health care. What we want is free market principles. What we want is a minimalist and federalist government. NONE of that is in this bill, and NONE of that is being supported by Republicans, despite what they SAY they are for.

Right!  And we're supposed to believe that of all the things the gov't has stuck its nose into and screwed up and then never removed its nose from, that this one is going to be different and that eventually they will remove themselves from it.  Again, suuuuuure.   

[Smokin Joe]

As Reagan used to say .....

Let me get that quote right. "....." Ah yes. So profound, The emperor always dresses so well.

It is the constant concessions to the liberals of both parties which have put this country where it is. You have shown your stripes. For once the GOP is holding the cards and won't play. It has the means but WILL NOT USE IT! Want my support? For that?

Oh, Hell no.
 
We were promised one thing.
What is being discussed isn't up to spec, and it isn't being delivered.
Think I will do business with that again?

Not in this life. Anyone affiliated with the GOP is going to have to show cause why I should ever vote for them, and that little 'R' after their name isn't it.

Y'all can be as smug as you want, but y'all aren't cleaning out the swamp, you're basking in the damned thing.

[Smokin Joe]

Y'all should just stop advertising Conservatism. Y'all should just change the party platform to reflect the lukewarm pablum you really stand for... At least we'd have truth in advertising, and we'd actually see if a 'moderate' espousing 'moderation' could get elected *at all*.

This bill will fail, whether it passes or not. We are heading for single payer one way or another unless the primary principle - That government has no business being in health care - Is upheld.

It isn't a matter of getting 70% of anything we want. What we want, is government out of health care. What we want is free market principles. What we want is a minimalist and federalist government. NONE of that is in this bill, and NONE of that is being supported by Republicans, despite what they SAY they are for.
 
This is just so much kabuki theater on our way to yet another overweening federal monolith espousing socialist utopia. And all the appeasement, half measures, and compromise in the world isn't going to stop it.

SPOT ON!

[Mesaclone]

Donald J. Trump

And so were you lily livered republican cowards currently serving in congress!

The humor here is that you think the quote supports your position, but the opposite is true. The "norm" is the Republicans holding out for a perfect bill and getting nothing...unwilling to win the battle in increments. The "new" and smart approach Trump is taking...and dragging congress along for the ride...is to get what you can get and keep pushing the ball down the field. You don't need a touchdown on every play, sometimes you get the first down and keep driving. That's what Trump supporters are calling for, and its...literally...the only way to attain ANYTHING for the conservative agenda. Holding out for full repeal or some version close to it KNOWING there aren't 50 votes...that's the old repetitive stupidity Trump is referring to with the quote you cite.

[Bigun]

Let me get that quote right. "....." Ah yes. So profound, The emperor always dresses so well.

It is the constant concessions to the liberals of both parties which have put this country where it is. You have shown your stripes. For once the GOP is holding the cards and won't play. It has the means but WILL NOT USE IT! Want my support? For that?

Oh, Hell no.
 
We were promised one thing.
What is being discussed isn't up to spec, and it isn't being delivered.
Think I will do business with that again?

Not in this life. Anyone affiliated with the GOP is going to have to show cause why I should ever vote for them, and that little 'R' after their name isn't it.

Y'all can be as smug as you want, but y'all aren't cleaning out the swamp, you're basking in the damned thing.

They play!   They just fold before the first card is revealed!

[Bigun]

The humor here is that you think the quote supports your position, but the opposite is true. The "norm" is the Republicans holding out for a perfect bill and getting nothing...unwilling to win the battle in increments. The "new" and smart approach Trump is taking...and dragging congress along for the ride...is to get what you can get and keep pushing the ball down the field. You don't need a touchdown on every play, sometimes you get the first down and keep driving. That's what Trump supporters are calling for, and its...literally...the only way to attain ANYTHING for the conservative agenda. Holding out for full repeal or some version close to it KNOWING there aren't 50 votes...that's the old repetitive stupidity Trump is referring to with the quote you cite.

The humor is that YOU and many others here think that you can bargain with the devil and win!

[Smokin Joe]

The humor here is that you think the quote supports your position, but the opposite is true. The "norm" is the Republicans holding out for a perfect bill and getting nothing...unwilling to win the battle in increments. The "new" and smart approach Trump is taking...and dragging congress along for the ride...is to get what you can get and keep pushing the ball down the field. You don't need a touchdown on every play, sometimes you get the first down and keep driving. That's what Trump supporters are calling for, and its...literally...the only way to attain ANYTHING for the conservative agenda. Holding out for full repeal or some version close to it KNOWING there aren't 50 votes...that's the old repetitive stupidity Trump is referring to with the quote you cite.

"Repeal Obamacare."
        http://www.dailypress.com/news/politics/dp-nws-pence-20160920-story.html
       (On Trump's campaign website, he's less bullish, promising only to "ask Congress" on day one to repeal Obamacare immediately.)

From http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,233460.0.html
Right behind "Repeal every Obama Executive Order"


Where is it?

[Mesaclone]

Y'all should just stop advertising Conservatism. Y'all should just change the party platform to reflect the lukewarm pablum you really stand for... At least we'd have truth in advertising, and we'd actually see if a 'moderate' espousing 'moderation' could get elected *at all*. We're not advertising conservatism, we're fighting to implement it...its a scrum and we're battling for yards and inches while the moral narcissists sit in their armchairs and bitch because we haven't already won the game for them.

This bill will fail, whether it passes or not. We are heading for single payer one way or another unless the primary principle - That government has no business being in health care - Is upheld. You don't have the votes for full repeal.
 Period. Clinging to that when it has less than 50 votes is just another form of surrender to a Leftist agenda.

It isn't a matter of getting 70% of anything we want. What we want, is government out of health care. What we want is free market principles. What we want is a minimalist and federalist government. NONE of that is in this bill, and NONE of that is being supported by Republicans, despite what they SAY they are for.We all want the government out of health care. You got 50 votes in your pocket? I thought not, in which case your jousting with a windmill.
 
This is just so much kabuki theater on our way to yet another overweening federal monolith espousing socialist utopia. And all the appeasement, half measures, and compromise in the world isn't going to stop it.You are actually causing the thing you claim to fear...by opposing the good because its not perfect...you allow the truly wicked to come to fruition ...single payer will win if conservatives lack the courage to fight for first downs rather than hoping for Hail Mary's.

Its sad. We live in a Republic...as conservatives we don't just get to decide what we want and impose it. You have such a juvenile understanding of how a Republic functions...that you can't seem to grasp the concept that you get nothing if you can't put together a majority IN BOTH HOUSES for any particular piece of legislation. Its really not THAT hard to grasp...so why can't you?

[Mesaclone]

From http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,233460.0.html
Right behind "Repeal every Obama Executive Order"


Where is it?

He did ask congress to repeal Obamacare. They said "No"...they don't have the votes. So Trump used his brain and is fighting to get what can be gotten. As opposed to simple surrender, which is what the Moral Narcissists here are advocating.

[Mesaclone]

The humor is that YOU and many others here think that you can bargain with the devil and win!

Dems are idiots, but they are not the devil....just because they are foolish enough to paint Cons as demons, does not mean we should emulate their stupidity. As we live in a Republic, its not possible to govern without dealing with the opposition party. Luckily, we have the man who WROTE the Art of the Deal in the White House...so we're in good hands.

[Smokin Joe]

He did ask congress to repeal Obamacare. They said "No"...they don't have the votes. So Trump used his brain and is fighting to get what can be gotten. As opposed to simple surrender, which is what the Moral Narcissists here are advocating.

Well why not? Why is it not even close? And WTF are those SOBs doing calling themselves "Conservative" if they can't get this part right?

I'm not advocating surrender, I am advocating a roll call vote on what they promised to do so we KNOW who to boot out. It's time to fish or cut bait.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

He did ask congress to repeal Obamacare. They said "No"...they don't have the votes. So Trump used his brain and is fighting to get what can be gotten. As opposed to simple surrender, which is what the Moral Narcissists here are advocating.

A 'Moral Narcissist' still has morals, whereas you advocate, some type of 'Immoral Surrender'.

[Mesaclone]

Well why not? Why is it not even close? And WTF are those SOBs doing calling themselves "Conservative" if they can't get this part right?

I'm not advocating surrender, I am advocating a roll call vote on what they promised to do so we KNOW who to boot out. It's time to fish or cut bait.

Well, they didn't ALL promise anything....we all know not every Republican is genuinely conservative. So we can opine all we want about why some won't vote for a more conservative solution, but it won't change any votes to do so. Lacking the votes...and no amount of righteous wishing can change that, and knowing the economy will tank and the GOP get the blame if we do nothing....what the hell would you have them do?  Just give up and let it all go to hell...bringing in single payer and a generation of liberal dominated governance?

[Mesaclone]

A 'Moral Narcissist' still has morals, whereas you advocate, some type of 'Immoral Surrender'.

Is it immoral to go for a first down rather than toss up a Hail Mary hoping for a touchdown?

You're no more "moral" than anyone else on this site...and NeverTrumpers are no more moral than Trump supporters, though it may be hard to see from way up on those high horses you're sitting on.

[Smokin Joe]

Well, they didn't ALL promise anything....we all know not every Republican is genuinely conservative. So we can opine all we want about why some won't vote for a more conservative solution, but it won't change any votes to do so. Lacking the votes...and no amount of righteous wishing can change that, and knowing the economy will tank and the GOP get the blame if we do nothing....what the hell would you have them do?  Just give up and let it all go to hell...bringing in single payer and a generation of liberal dominated governance?

Then explain why they passed the repeal bill when Obama was in office but they won't now.
TEA party groups across the country got out and handed the GOP the majority they needed, predicated, in part of Obamacare repeal. 
Now, Let it crash.

Let the GOP  get the damned blame, they've earned it, imho.

If they want to keep power, if they want to keep their jobs, then let them step up and do it. Otherwise they are useless as Dems to me.

[RoosGirl]

And still no one has given me a real life example of where republicans went for less and came back for more and got it.

[EC]

Dems are idiots, but they are not the devil....just because they are foolish enough to paint Cons as demons, does not mean we should emulate their stupidity. As we live in a Republic, its not possible to govern without dealing with the opposition party. Luckily, we have the man who WROTE the Art of the Deal in the White House...so we're in good hands.

When did Tony Schwartz get elected?

[roamer_1]

Its sad. We live in a Republic...as conservatives we don't just get to decide what we want and impose it. You have such a juvenile understanding of how a Republic functions...that you can't seem to grasp the concept that you get nothing if you can't put together a majority IN BOTH HOUSES for any particular piece of legislation. Its really not THAT hard to grasp...so why can't you?

More Republican sophistry. Somehow, Democrats make giant strides every time they get close to power. There was no moderation or compromise involved in shoving Obamacare down our throats. Yet as ALWAYS, Conservatives are told they have to settle - Not just for less, but for what isn't Conservative *at all*.

The reason is because the liberals have no 'moderates' in the Democrat party. The entire apparatus is hell bent upon delivering to their most liberal base. And they DO deliver, come hell or high water.

Shut up with all your equivocations.  They are bullsh*t. What we are faced with is that the liberal moderates are not in the Democrat party. They're all Republicans. Traitorous bastards, every one. *SPIT*

[Mesaclone]

Then explain why they passed the repeal bill when Obama was in office but they won't now.
TEA party groups across the country got out and handed the GOP the majority they needed, predicated, in part of Obamacare repeal. 
Now, Let it crash.

Let the GOP  get the damned blame, they've earned it, imho.

If they want to keep power, if they want to keep their jobs, then let them step up and do it. Otherwise they are useless as Dems to me.

Simple. Because its not the guys that the Tea Party helped elect who are the problem. Its the large group of moderate Republicans who, in many cases, nearly lost their seats to Tea Party primary opponents. We may not care much for these folks, but their votes still count in the House and Senate. "Letting it crash" as you proclaim, is simply surrender. If that's your choice, than so be it...surrender away. Many of us, however, have not yet begun to fight.

[roamer_1]

Well why not? Why is it not even close? And WTF are those SOBs doing calling themselves "Conservative" if they can't get this part right?

I'm not advocating surrender, I am advocating a roll call vote on what they promised to do so we KNOW who to boot out. It's time to fish or cut bait.

That's a fact.

[Mesaclone]

That's a fact.

Fine, I'm all for a roll call vote. Won't change a single vote either way.