Author Topic: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine  (Read 5073 times)

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Offline EC

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2017, 05:03:04 pm »
Along with the BLM and BATF.

Both BLM's?  :tongue2:
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2017, 05:07:29 pm »
It's the states that do that, not the EPA.  Because people don't buy the right to that rainwater... like a property can be bought without rights to the minerals under it.  Intercepting the recharging precipitation is therefore illegal.

@Suppressed

Both have claimed the power to regulate rain water.  The states restrict collection of rainwater under the logic that it can adversely effect downstream water supplies.  It really has nothing to do with the property because in most states that restrict collection of rainwater you cannot  "buy" the right to collect it.   Mineral rights are a different animal entirely. 

The EPA has claimed the power to regulate everything down to puddles under the logic that the water eventually will end up in a river, lake or ocean.   This is not tied into the collection of rain water as the EPA has only claimed regulatory power over water once it hits the ground (that I know of).   There was a recent court case which pushed back on the EPA but I think the case was still up in the air.   The new EPA Director (Trumps appointee) is probably going to drastically change the EPAs direction based on his public statements.
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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2017, 05:09:03 pm »
Along with the BLM and BATF.

And a dozen others!
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2017, 05:13:58 pm »
Here we call rippers chisel plows. Unlike the traditional bottom plow, chisel plows have a very thin spike that doesn't turn the soil, but 'rips' it about a foot or so below the ground to breakup hardpan. The two pics below show the differences.

Chisel plow:



Bottom plow:



So while technically he was plowing his field, he really wasn't, not at least in the traditional sense of the word.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 05:17:08 pm by Free Vulcan »
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Offline INVAR

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2017, 05:25:20 pm »
I find it amazing how comfortable we've grown to abject despotism and tyranny.

We spilled blood for far less intrusions on our rights from the Crown than what we put up with willingly from the Beast in DC.
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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2017, 05:29:50 pm »
I find it amazing how comfortable we've grown to abject despotism and tyranny.

We spilled blood for far less intrusions on our rights from the Crown than what we put up with willingly from the Beast in DC.

One of the penalties for knowing who your ancestors are and what they did to bring forth this country is that such things as you mention makes one very ill!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2017, 05:31:45 pm »
It reads to me that at most he should get a slap on the wrist to nothing at all. I'm also not totally convinced the Fedgov has jurisdiction here.
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Offline rodamala

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2017, 05:54:50 pm »
It reads to me that at most he should get a slap on the wrist to nothing at all. I'm also not totally convinced the Fedgov has jurisdiction here.

As per Title 40 CFR Part 232.3, they do not.


§ 232.3 - Activities not requiring permits.

Except as specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, any discharge of dredged or fill material that may result from any of the activities described in paragraph (c) of this section is not prohibited by or otherwise subject to regulation under this part.
(a) If any discharge of dredged or fill material resulting from the activities listed in paragraph (c) of this section contains any toxic pollutant listed under section 307 of the Act, such discharge shall be subject to any applicable toxic effluent standard or prohibition, and shall require a section 404 permit.
(b) Any discharge of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States incidental to any of the activities identified in paragraph (c) of this section must have a permit if it is part of an activity whose purpose is to convert an area of the waters of the United States into a use to which it was not previously subject, where the flow or circulation of waters of the United States may be impaired or the reach of such waters reduced. Where the proposed discharge will result in significant discernable alterations to flow or circulation, the presumption is that flow or circulation may be impaired by such alteration.
Note:
For example, a permit will be required for the conversion of a cypress swamp to some other use or the conversion of a wetland from silvicultural to agricultural use when there is a discharge of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States in conjunction with constuction of dikes, drainage ditches or other works or structures used to effect such conversion. A conversion of section 404 wetland to a non-wetland is a change in use of an area of waters of the U.S. A discharge which elevates the bottom of waters of the United States without converting it to dry land does not thereby reduce the reach of, but may alter the flow or circulation of, waters of the United States.
(c) The following activities are exempt from section 404 permit requirements, except as specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section:
(1)(i) Normal farming, silviculture and ranching activities such as plowing, seeding, cultivating, minor drainage, and harvesting for the production of food, fiber, and forest products, or upland soil and water conservation practices, as defined in paragraph (d) of this section.
(ii)(A) To fall under this exemption, the activities specified in paragraph (c)(1) of this section must be part of an established (i.e., ongong) farming, silviculture, or ranching operation, and must be in accordance with definitions in paragraph (d) of this section. Activities on areas lying fallow as part of a conventional rotational cycle are part of an established operation.
(B) Activities which bring an area into farming, silviculture or ranching use are not part of an established operation. An operation ceases to be established when the area in which it was conducted has been converted to another use or has lain idle so long that modifications to the hydrological regime are necessary to resume operation. If an activity takes place outside the waters of the United States, or if it does not involve a discharge, it does not need a section 404 permit whether or not it was part of an es-tab-lished farming, silviculture or ranching -operation.
(2) Maintenance, including emergency reconstruction of recently damaged parts, of currently serviceable structures such as dikes, dams, levees, groins, riprap, breakwaters, cause-ways, bridge abutments or approaches, -and transportation structures. Maintenance does not include any modification that changes the character, scope, or size of the original fill design. Emergency reconstruction must occur within a reasonable period of time after damage occurs in order to qualify for this exemption.
(3) Construction or maintenance of farm or stock ponds or irrigation ditches or the maintenance (but not construction) of drainage ditches. Discharge associated with siphons, pumps, headgates, wingwalls, wiers, diversion structures, and such other facilities as are appurtenant and functionally related to irrigation ditches are included in this exemption.
(4) Construction of temporary sedimentation basins on a construction site which does not include placement of fill material into waters of the United States. The term “construction site” refers to any site involving the erection of buildings, roads, and other discrete structures and the installation of support facilities necessary for construction and utilization of such structures. The term also includes any other land areas which involve land-disturbing excavation activities, including quarrying or other mining activities, where an increase in the runoff of sediment is controlled through the use of temporary sedimentation basins.
(5) Any activity with respect to which a State has an approved program under section 208(b)(4) of the Act which meets the requirements of section 208(b)(4)(B) and (C).
(6) Construction or maintenance of farm roads, forest roads, or temporary roads for moving mining equipment, where such roads are constructed and maintained in accordance with best management practices (BMPs) to assure that flow and circulation patterns and chemical and biological characteristics of waters of the United States are not impaired, that the reach of the waters of the United States is not reduced, and that any adverse effect on the aquatic environment will be otherwise minimized. The BMPs which must be applied to satisfy this provision include the following baseline provisions:
(i) Permanent roads (for farming or forestry activities), temporary access roads (for mining, forestry, or farm purposes) and skid trails (for logging) in waters of the United States shall be held to the minimum feasible number, width, and total length consistent -with the purpose of specific farming, -silvicultural or mining operations, -and local topographic and climatic -conditions;
(ii) All roads, temporary or permanent, shall be located sufficiently far from streams or other water bodies (except for portions of such roads which must cross water bodies) to minimize discharges of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States;
(iii) The road fill shall be bridged, culverted, or otherwise designed to prevent the restriction of expected flood flows;
(iv) The fill shall be properly stabilized and maintained to prevent erosion during and following construction;
(v) Discharges of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States to construct a road fill shall be made in a manner that minimizes the encroachment of trucks, tractors, bulldozers, or other heavy equipment within the waters of the United States (including adjacent wetlands) that lie outside the lateral boundaries of the fill itself;
(vi) In designing, constructing, and maintaining roads, vegetative disturbance in the waters of the United States shall be kept to a minimum;
(vii) The design, construction and maintenance of the road crossing shall not disrupt the migration or other movement of those species of aquatic life inhabiting the water body;
(viii) Borrow material shall be taken from upland sources whenever feasible;
(ix) The discharge shall not take, or jeopardize the continued existence of, a threatened or endangered species as defined under the Endangered Species Act, or adversely modify or destroy the critical habitat of such species;
(x) Discharges into breeding and nesting areas for migratory waterfowl, spawning areas, and wetlands shall be avoided if practical alternatives exist;
(xi) The discharge shall not be located in the proximity of a public water supply intake;
(xii) The discharge shall not occur -in areas of concentrated shellfish -production;
(xiii) The discharge shall not occur in a component of the National Wild and Scenic River System;
(xiv) The discharge of material shall consist of suitable material free from toxic pollutants in toxic amounts; and
(xv) All temporary fills shall be removed in their entirety and the area restored to its original elevation.
(d) For purpose of paragraph (c)(1) of this section, cultivating, harvesting, minor drainage, plowing, and seeding are defined as follows:
(1) Cultivating means physical methods of soil treatment employed within established farming, ranching and silviculture lands on farm, ranch, or forest crops to aid and improve their growth, quality, or yield.
(2) Harvesting means physical measures employed directly upon farm, forest, or ranch crops within established agricultural and silvicultural lands to bring about their removal from farm, forest, or ranch land, but does not include the construction of farm, forest, or ranch roads.
(3)(i) Minor drainage means:
(A) The discharge of dredged or fill material incidental to connecting upland drainage facilities to waters of the United States, adequate to effect the removal of excess soil moisture from upland croplands. Construction and maintenance of upland (dryland) facilities, such as ditching and tiling, incidental to the planting, cultivating, protecting, or harvesting of crops, involve no discharge of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States, and as such never require a section 404 permit;
(B) The discharge of dredged or fill material for the purpose of installing ditching or other water control facilities incidental to planting, cultivating, protecting, or harvesting of rice, cranberries or other wetland crop species, where these activities and the discharge occur in waters of the United States which are in established use for such agricultural and silvicultural wetland crop production;
(C) The discharge of dredged or fill material for the purpose of manipulating the water levels of, or regulating the flow or distribution of water within, existing impoundments which have been constructed in accordance with applicable requirements of the Act, and which are in established use for the production or rice, cranberries, or other wetland crop species.
Note:
The provisions of paragraphs (d)(3)(i) (B) and (C) of this section apply to areas that are in established use exclusively for wetland crop production as well as areas in established use for conventional wetland/non-wetland crop rotation (e.g., the rotations of rice and soybeans) where such rotation results in the cyclical or intermittent temporary dewatering of such areas.
(D) The discharge of dredged or fill material incidental to the emergency removal of sandbars, gravel bars, or other similar blockages which are formed during flood flows or other events, where such blockages close or constrict previously existing drain-age-ways and, if not promptly removed, would result in damage to or loss of existing crops or would impair or prevent the plowing, seeding, harvesting or cultivating of crops on land in established use for crop production. Such removal does not include enlarging or extending the dimensions of, or changing the bottom elevations of, the affected drainageway as it existed prior to the formation of the blockage. Removal must be accomplished within one year after such blockages are discovered in order to be eligible for exemption.
(ii) Minor drainage in waters of the United States is limited to drainage within areas that are part of an established farming or silviculture operation. It does not include drainage associated with the immediate or gradual conversion of a wetland to a non-wetland (e.g., wetland species to upland species not typically adequate to life in saturated soil conditions), or conversion from one wetland use to another (for example, silviculture to farming).
In addition, minor drainage does not include the construction of any canal, ditch, dike or other waterway or structure which drains or otherwise significantly modifies a stream, lake, swamp, bog or any other wetland or aquatic area constituting waters of the United States. Any discharge of dredged or fill material into the waters of the United States incidental to the construction of any such structure or waterway -requires a permit.
(4) Plowing means all forms of primary tillage, including moldboard, chisel, or wide-blade plowing, discing, harrowing, and similar physical means used on farm, forest or ranch land for the breaking up, cutting, turning over, or stirring of soil to prepare it for the planting of crops. Plowing does not include the redistribution of soil, rock, sand, or other surficial materials in a manner which changes any area of the waters of the United States to dryland. For example, the redistribution of surface materials by blading, grading, or other means to fill in wetland areas is not plowing. Rock crushing activities which result in the loss of natural drainage characteristics, the reduction of water storage and recharge capabilities, or the overburden of natural water filtration capacities do not constitute plowing. Plowing, as described above, will never involve a discharge of dredged or fill material.
(5) Seeding means the sowing of seed and placement of seedlings to produce farm, ranch, or forest crops and includes the placement of soil beds for seeds or seedlings on established farm and forest lands.
(e) Federal projects which qualify under the criteria contained in section 404(r) of the Act are exempt from section 404 permit requirements, but may be subject to other State or Federal requirements.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2017, 05:58:53 pm »
As per Title 40 CFR Part 232.3, they do not.


§ 232.3 - Activities not requiring permits.

Except as specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, any discharge of dredged or fill material that may result from any of the activities described in paragraph (c) of this section is not prohibited by or otherwise subject to regulation under this part.
(a) If any discharge of dredged or fill material resulting from the activities listed in paragraph (c) of this section contains any toxic pollutant listed under section 307 of the Act, such discharge shall be subject to any applicable toxic effluent standard or prohibition, and shall require a section 404 permit.
(b) Any discharge of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States incidental to any of the activities identified in paragraph (c) of this section must have a permit if it is part of an activity whose purpose is to convert an area of the waters of the United States into a use to which it was not previously subject, where the flow or circulation of waters of the United States may be impaired or the reach of such waters reduced. Where the proposed discharge will result in significant discernable alterations to flow or circulation, the presumption is that flow or circulation may be impaired by such alteration.
Note:
For example, a permit will be required for the conversion of a cypress swamp to some other use or the conversion of a wetland from silvicultural to agricultural use when there is a discharge of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States in conjunction with constuction of dikes, drainage ditches or other works or structures used to effect such conversion. A conversion of section 404 wetland to a non-wetland is a change in use of an area of waters of the U.S. A discharge which elevates the bottom of waters of the United States without converting it to dry land does not thereby reduce the reach of, but may alter the flow or circulation of, waters of the United States.
(c) The following activities are exempt from section 404 permit requirements, except as specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section:
(1)(i) Normal farming, silviculture and ranching activities such as plowing, seeding, cultivating, minor drainage, and harvesting for the production of food, fiber, and forest products, or upland soil and water conservation practices, as defined in paragraph (d) of this section.
(ii)(A) To fall under this exemption, the activities specified in paragraph (c)(1) of this section must be part of an established (i.e., ongong) farming, silviculture, or ranching operation, and must be in accordance with definitions in paragraph (d) of this section. Activities on areas lying fallow as part of a conventional rotational cycle are part of an established operation.
(B) Activities which bring an area into farming, silviculture or ranching use are not part of an established operation. An operation ceases to be established when the area in which it was conducted has been converted to another use or has lain idle so long that modifications to the hydrological regime are necessary to resume operation. If an activity takes place outside the waters of the United States, or if it does not involve a discharge, it does not need a section 404 permit whether or not it was part of an es-tab-lished farming, silviculture or ranching -operation.
(2) Maintenance, including emergency reconstruction of recently damaged parts, of currently serviceable structures such as dikes, dams, levees, groins, riprap, breakwaters, cause-ways, bridge abutments or approaches, -and transportation structures. Maintenance does not include any modification that changes the character, scope, or size of the original fill design. Emergency reconstruction must occur within a reasonable period of time after damage occurs in order to qualify for this exemption.
(3) Construction or maintenance of farm or stock ponds or irrigation ditches or the maintenance (but not construction) of drainage ditches. Discharge associated with siphons, pumps, headgates, wingwalls, wiers, diversion structures, and such other facilities as are appurtenant and functionally related to irrigation ditches are included in this exemption.
(4) Construction of temporary sedimentation basins on a construction site which does not include placement of fill material into waters of the United States. The term “construction site” refers to any site involving the erection of buildings, roads, and other discrete structures and the installation of support facilities necessary for construction and utilization of such structures. The term also includes any other land areas which involve land-disturbing excavation activities, including quarrying or other mining activities, where an increase in the runoff of sediment is controlled through the use of temporary sedimentation basins.
(5) Any activity with respect to which a State has an approved program under section 208(b)(4) of the Act which meets the requirements of section 208(b)(4)(B) and (C).
(6) Construction or maintenance of farm roads, forest roads, or temporary roads for moving mining equipment, where such roads are constructed and maintained in accordance with best management practices (BMPs) to assure that flow and circulation patterns and chemical and biological characteristics of waters of the United States are not impaired, that the reach of the waters of the United States is not reduced, and that any adverse effect on the aquatic environment will be otherwise minimized. The BMPs which must be applied to satisfy this provision include the following baseline provisions:
(i) Permanent roads (for farming or forestry activities), temporary access roads (for mining, forestry, or farm purposes) and skid trails (for logging) in waters of the United States shall be held to the minimum feasible number, width, and total length consistent -with the purpose of specific farming, -silvicultural or mining operations, -and local topographic and climatic -conditions;
(ii) All roads, temporary or permanent, shall be located sufficiently far from streams or other water bodies (except for portions of such roads which must cross water bodies) to minimize discharges of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States;
(iii) The road fill shall be bridged, culverted, or otherwise designed to prevent the restriction of expected flood flows;
(iv) The fill shall be properly stabilized and maintained to prevent erosion during and following construction;
(v) Discharges of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States to construct a road fill shall be made in a manner that minimizes the encroachment of trucks, tractors, bulldozers, or other heavy equipment within the waters of the United States (including adjacent wetlands) that lie outside the lateral boundaries of the fill itself;
(vi) In designing, constructing, and maintaining roads, vegetative disturbance in the waters of the United States shall be kept to a minimum;
(vii) The design, construction and maintenance of the road crossing shall not disrupt the migration or other movement of those species of aquatic life inhabiting the water body;
(viii) Borrow material shall be taken from upland sources whenever feasible;
(ix) The discharge shall not take, or jeopardize the continued existence of, a threatened or endangered species as defined under the Endangered Species Act, or adversely modify or destroy the critical habitat of such species;
(x) Discharges into breeding and nesting areas for migratory waterfowl, spawning areas, and wetlands shall be avoided if practical alternatives exist;
(xi) The discharge shall not be located in the proximity of a public water supply intake;
(xii) The discharge shall not occur -in areas of concentrated shellfish -production;
(xiii) The discharge shall not occur in a component of the National Wild and Scenic River System;
(xiv) The discharge of material shall consist of suitable material free from toxic pollutants in toxic amounts; and
(xv) All temporary fills shall be removed in their entirety and the area restored to its original elevation.
(d) For purpose of paragraph (c)(1) of this section, cultivating, harvesting, minor drainage, plowing, and seeding are defined as follows:
(1) Cultivating means physical methods of soil treatment employed within established farming, ranching and silviculture lands on farm, ranch, or forest crops to aid and improve their growth, quality, or yield.
(2) Harvesting means physical measures employed directly upon farm, forest, or ranch crops within established agricultural and silvicultural lands to bring about their removal from farm, forest, or ranch land, but does not include the construction of farm, forest, or ranch roads.
(3)(i) Minor drainage means:
(A) The discharge of dredged or fill material incidental to connecting upland drainage facilities to waters of the United States, adequate to effect the removal of excess soil moisture from upland croplands. Construction and maintenance of upland (dryland) facilities, such as ditching and tiling, incidental to the planting, cultivating, protecting, or harvesting of crops, involve no discharge of dredged or fill material into waters of the United States, and as such never require a section 404 permit;
(B) The discharge of dredged or fill material for the purpose of installing ditching or other water control facilities incidental to planting, cultivating, protecting, or harvesting of rice, cranberries or other wetland crop species, where these activities and the discharge occur in waters of the United States which are in established use for such agricultural and silvicultural wetland crop production;
(C) The discharge of dredged or fill material for the purpose of manipulating the water levels of, or regulating the flow or distribution of water within, existing impoundments which have been constructed in accordance with applicable requirements of the Act, and which are in established use for the production or rice, cranberries, or other wetland crop species.
Note:
The provisions of paragraphs (d)(3)(i) (B) and (C) of this section apply to areas that are in established use exclusively for wetland crop production as well as areas in established use for conventional wetland/non-wetland crop rotation (e.g., the rotations of rice and soybeans) where such rotation results in the cyclical or intermittent temporary dewatering of such areas.
(D) The discharge of dredged or fill material incidental to the emergency removal of sandbars, gravel bars, or other similar blockages which are formed during flood flows or other events, where such blockages close or constrict previously existing drain-age-ways and, if not promptly removed, would result in damage to or loss of existing crops or would impair or prevent the plowing, seeding, harvesting or cultivating of crops on land in established use for crop production. Such removal does not include enlarging or extending the dimensions of, or changing the bottom elevations of, the affected drainageway as it existed prior to the formation of the blockage. Removal must be accomplished within one year after such blockages are discovered in order to be eligible for exemption.
(ii) Minor drainage in waters of the United States is limited to drainage within areas that are part of an established farming or silviculture operation. It does not include drainage associated with the immediate or gradual conversion of a wetland to a non-wetland (e.g., wetland species to upland species not typically adequate to life in saturated soil conditions), or conversion from one wetland use to another (for example, silviculture to farming).
In addition, minor drainage does not include the construction of any canal, ditch, dike or other waterway or structure which drains or otherwise significantly modifies a stream, lake, swamp, bog or any other wetland or aquatic area constituting waters of the United States. Any discharge of dredged or fill material into the waters of the United States incidental to the construction of any such structure or waterway -requires a permit.
(4) Plowing means all forms of primary tillage, including moldboard, chisel, or wide-blade plowing, discing, harrowing, and similar physical means used on farm, forest or ranch land for the breaking up, cutting, turning over, or stirring of soil to prepare it for the planting of crops. Plowing does not include the redistribution of soil, rock, sand, or other surficial materials in a manner which changes any area of the waters of the United States to dryland. For example, the redistribution of surface materials by blading, grading, or other means to fill in wetland areas is not plowing. Rock crushing activities which result in the loss of natural drainage characteristics, the reduction of water storage and recharge capabilities, or the overburden of natural water filtration capacities do not constitute plowing. Plowing, as described above, will never involve a discharge of dredged or fill material.
(5) Seeding means the sowing of seed and placement of seedlings to produce farm, ranch, or forest crops and includes the placement of soil beds for seeds or seedlings on established farm and forest lands.
(e) Federal projects which qualify under the criteria contained in section 404(r) of the Act are exempt from section 404 permit requirements, but may be subject to other State or Federal requirements.

This action isn't being taken under the letter of the law.  Its being taken on an interpretation of the law that the Federal Govt agencies have elected to use.   That interpretation is that all water eventually ends up in a body of water subject to the Clean Water Act.  Therefor the federal govt has jurisdiction over all water except that which is in our pipes.   

Drainage, puddles, streams, and so on even if they are seasonal or only appear after heavy rains.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline rodamala

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2017, 06:03:53 pm »
This action isn't being taken under the letter of the law.

That would make this action... um... illegal.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2017, 06:30:05 pm »
That would make this action... um... illegal.

That has not been an obstacle for the fedgov for a while...

Offline INVAR

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2017, 06:33:23 pm »
That would make this action... um... illegal.

There was a period of time when "laws" that were made to infringe upon our rights were simply ignored, declared void and then resisted with extreme prejudice upon anyone attempting to force their will upon us.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2017, 06:42:42 pm »

This.   "Suppressed"  up above quoted that these "rippers"  cut 10" into the soil,  as if to distinguish their effect from a "plow",   which cuts how deep into the soil?   7?  8?   Perhaps even 10 inches? 


I've pulled a plow with a tractor years ago,  and i'm not seeing the difference between what a plow would do or what a "ripper"  would do.   


Yes,  the Government is abusing the clean water act to control land.
It would not be the first time the government has used water as a reason to control land, and these folks had deeded water rights. Most lost their farms. http://jeffhead.com/klamath/
https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/07/09/water-fight.htm
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline rodamala

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2017, 06:43:58 pm »
There was a period of time when "laws" that were made to infringe upon our rights were simply ignored, declared void and then resisted with extreme prejudice upon anyone attempting to force their will upon us.

I look forward to the day someone from the government comes trespassing on my farm so can tell them, at gunpoint, to promptly go f*** their hat.

Offline rodamala

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2017, 06:50:22 pm »
One of the few times I know DJT did the right thing:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riSxBAtmHF8

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2017, 06:51:41 pm »
I look forward to the day someone from the government comes trespassing on my farm so can tell them, at gunpoint, to promptly go f*** their hat.

We see how that turned out in a couple recent cases.   Big govt will not be denied their power.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2017, 06:54:07 pm »
I look forward to the day someone from the government comes trespassing on my farm so can tell them, at gunpoint, to promptly go f*** their hat.

Reminds me of a very funny Texas story!

A federal agent showed up on a South Texas ranch with a search warrant.  The rancher told him to be his guest and offered to accompany him as he did what he needed to do The agent agreed and they toured the place for some time before coming to the gate for a small lot. The Agent stopped his vehicle and the rancher told him to be careful about going in there where upon the agent read him the riot act about being a federal agent and going where ever he damned well pleased.  The rancher said no more and the agent got out and walked through the gate. About two minutes latter the agent came running by with a very large bull right on his A$$ yelling for the rancher to help!  The rancher walked up to the gate and yelled SHOW HIM YOUR BADGE!!!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline mirraflake

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2017, 06:56:05 pm »




I've pulled a plow with a tractor years ago,  and i'm not seeing the difference between what a plow would do or what a "ripper"  would do.   



Plow turns over the soil(covering up the top grass layer)  while the ripper just does as it implies rips up the soil.

@DiogenesLamp

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2017, 07:02:08 pm »
We have a 1 acre pond on our property that is quite swampy at one end and could definitely classify as wetlands.

A soon as it dries out this summer Memorial day weekend when the gov't is out on vacation  a friend is coming in and doing some dirt work to get rid of the wetland.

Same guy who installed a septic tank and small leachfield for my wifes horse barn that we did not want to get a permit over..  What septic tank?

Offline rodamala

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2017, 07:10:30 pm »
Plow turns over the soil(covering up the top grass layer)  while the ripper just does as it implies rips up the soil.

@DiogenesLamp

A chisel plow is, as previously mentioned, for breaking hardpan or compacted soil.  It also aerates the soil.

Offline INVAR

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2017, 07:20:42 pm »
We see how that turned out in a couple recent cases.   Big govt will not be denied their power.

Better to die free than live as a slave.

But some prefer slavery as long as they are provided for.

Such is the disposition of human nature: to suffer evil while evils are sufferable rather than abolish to that which they have grown accustomed.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2017, 07:25:42 pm »
Better to die free than live as a slave.

But some prefer slavery as long as they are provided for.

Such is the disposition of human nature: to suffer evil while evils are sufferable rather than abolish to that which they have grown accustomed.

“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.”

 
Voltaire
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2017, 07:47:26 pm »
“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.”

Or the chains they simply accept because there's no point risking anything when one has no chance to exercise liberty.

Or, I love this one: "The price we have to pay for living in a free country with benefits and services for all".
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2017, 07:51:17 pm »
A ripper is basically a coulter only plow. They cut maybe half an inch deeper than a plow does, and are usually only used on land that has been fallow for decades, where the soil has compacted enough to cause the plowshares problems, or on heay clay soils.

That's right, with the exception of a ripper necessarily cutting deeper - That is wholly a function of the depth of the shank on the ripper,and the depth of the face of the plow.

I would add that the function is different - A ripper loosens the soil and also allows water to enter (and retain) within the ground. Often, rippers are intentionally run deeper than the plow for that reason - so the land can hold water and withstand drought.

I have ripped pastures and hayfields, without plowing, precisely for that purpose. Get it wet and roll it with a packer to restore the smoothness of the top, and you have a field that will stay green long into summer.

And you are right on wrt ripping being the first stage in reclaiming a long fallow field. it allows the plow to get into the ground, and turn it much easier than otherwise.

To suggest that rippers are not a typical part of agricultural use, not to mention farming, is ridiculous.

Offline rodamala

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Re: He plowed his field; now he faces a $2.8 million fine
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2017, 09:44:26 pm »
To suggest that rippers are not a typical part of agricultural use, not to mention farming, is ridiculous.

Only thing worse than a lawyer is a lawyer working for the goverment.