Removing Trump Won’t Solve America’s Crisis - A long read, but interesting

[Silver Pines]

I didn't read the article because I'm told it is long.  If you want me to read a long article you need to insert "Once-Ler" in the text every couple sentences to keep me interested.

Well.

Played.

 

@Once-Ler

[Wingnut]

Well.

Played.

 

@Once-Ler

@Once-Ler 

[Silver Pines]

This is from The American Conservative, and I wondered what y'all might think about it.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/removing-trump-wont-solve-americas-crisis/?utm_source=nl-politics-daily-051917

@Farish

Interesting article.  I agree with @Smokin Joe that those who are trying to get Trump removed from office are wasting their efforts at this point.

Frankly I would love to be proven wrong in my opinion of Trump, and to see him get a grip on himself and govern like a conservative.  I don't believe that will happen.  Many people wiser than I predicted his presidency would be chaotic, and although it's only a few months in, I don't expect a seventy year old man to pull off a major character renovation.

I can't place all of the blame on the "elites", as the article calls them.  Part of the blame lies with the primary voters.  You can be as angry as you want; I understand and share that anger at the useless GOP.  But you can't let it govern you to the point of abandoning reason.  Almost any of the candidates at those Republican debates would have been an improvement over Trump.  But people wanted to go with the one they believed was a smashmouth, the one who would take it to everybody who needed it. 

[Mesaclone]

@Farish

Interesting article.  I agree with @Smokin Joe that those who are trying to get Trump removed from office are wasting their efforts at this point.

Frankly I would love to be proven wrong in my opinion of Trump, and to see him get a grip on himself and govern like a conservative.  I don't believe that will happen.  Many people wiser than I predicted his presidency would be chaotic, and although it's only a few months in, I don't expect a seventy year old man to pull off a major character renovation.

I can't place all of the blame on the "elites", as the article calls them.  Part of the blame lies with the primary voters.  You can be as angry as you want; I understand and share that anger at the useless GOP.  But you can't let it govern you to the point of abandoning reason.  Almost any of the candidates at those Republican debates would have been an improvement over Trump.  But people wanted to go with the one they believed was a smashmouth, the one who would take it to everybody who needed it.

Sincere question.

Which President would you judge as having governed more conservatively than Mr Trump has in their first 5 months....over, say, the last 30 years (1989 to 2017)?

[Silver Pines]

Sincere question.

Which President would you judge as having governed more conservatively than Mr Trump has in their first 5 months....over, say, the last 30 years (Post Reagan)?

@Mesaclone

Well, he's good at executive orders, but when it comes to the hard stuff, he likes to punt.  Case in point---he campaigned on calling radical Islamic terror exactly what it is, but now that he's in Saudi Arabia, he won't use the term. 

[Mesaclone]

@Mesaclone

Well, he's good at executive orders, but when it comes to the hard stuff, he likes to punt.  Case in point---he campaigned on calling radical Islamic terror exactly what it is, but now that he's in Saudi Arabia, he won't use the term.

With all respect, I note that you didn't answer the question.

[Mesaclone]

@Mesaclone

Well, he's good at executive orders, but when it comes to the hard stuff, he likes to punt.  Case in point---he campaigned on calling radical Islamic terror exactly what it is, but now that he's in Saudi Arabia, he won't use the term.

He campaigned on it and is doing it. And he continues to be clear in using that term. This does not mean he has to be foolish in choosing when and where to use that phrase, the man is allowed to be diplomatic when diplomacy is warranted. He was incredibly strong in that speech, calling for radicals to be literally driven out of the mosques and nations he was speaking with. He hasn't wavered an iota in assaulting radical Islam, and he has gotten precisely the kind of support from the Arab world he needs to win that fight. Not sure what there would be worth criticizing in that. As frosting on the cake, he's struck a massive 360 billion dollar arms deal with the Saudis...a huge boon to our defense industry and a means to ensure the Saudis can fight for themselves, rather than calling on US troops to do so in their stead.

[Silver Pines]

With all respect, I note that you didn't answer the question.

@Mesaclone

That's because I'm tired of entertaining "whataboutism."

You're not stupid.  You know what Trump promised, and you know what he's backtracked on.  He made a lot of conservative-sounding promises.

[EC]

G W Bush.

Got a trillion dollar tax cut through BOTH houses in the first hundred days. Launched air strikes to enforce Iraq's completely ignored no fly zone. Actually filled his cabinet and 90% of the outstanding vacancies. Managed to move his approval ratings from 57% to 62% in the first 100 days.

[corbe]

   Since @Mesaclone 's posted timeline only includes two Rep Presidents, the Bush's, GW's first legislative proposal-NCLB was a superb bit of work, Conservatively, until he let Kennedy destroy it in an act of bipartisanship, so there's that, also Bush Jr. and his entire Administration was consumed 9 months into his Presidency by 9/11.

[Mesaclone]

@Mesaclone

That's because I'm tired of entertaining "whataboutism."

You're not stupid.  You know what Trump promised, and you know what he's backtracked on.  He made a lot of conservative-sounding promises.

I didn't ask a speculative "what about" type question. I simply asked who, in the last 30 years, has governed more conservatively in their first 5 months. By your non-answer, its rather clear that you understand the real answer is "no one". I know what he's promised, but he hasn't backed down on anything...he HAS had to accept that in many cases he can only achieve what congress is willing to pass. A reality every president faces....we all know that a Presidential candidate is promising to fight for the things he campaigns on...and I would hope we all equally understand that he's not elected dictator, but rather, president. As such, he is not empowered to attain everything he wants and is fighting for...he must exist in a Republic and so must compromise to achieve even the partial attainment of these goals.

You seem to think he can step in and achieve every campaign goal and every conservative goal...by fiat. It does not work that way, and that is an impossible standard. Reagan himself could not do so, so its rather unfair to hold that as a measure for Trump. The measuring stick is what he's fighting for, and in every case he's striving to attain the MOST conservative legislation possible...and he is complementing that effort with EO's, rules and in some cases regulations that move forward the conservative cause.

So I'd ask again, who has governed more conservatively in their first 5 months (1989-2017)?

I understand you will again evade answering, but please don't pretend that's an unfair or "what about" question...in reality, its a question that measures the current president by previous Republican/Conservative Chief Executives. That's a fair standard...unless you simply think every GOP president is actually a liberal Manchurian candidate.

[Mesaclone]

   Since @Mesaclone 's posted timeline only includes two Rep Presidents, the Bush's, GW's first legislative proposal-NCLB was a superb bit of work, Conservatively, until he let Kennedy destroy it in an act of bipartisanship, so there's that, also Bush Jr. and his entire Administration was consumed 9 months into his Presidency by 9/11.

Actually, in that time frame there have been 4 presidents with Trump being the 5th.

So you cite one legislative proposal that went awry (NCLB) and refer to Bush but do NOT reference his first 5 months (9/11 came later). The measure was who has governed more conservatively...in the last 30 years...over that same span of their presidency. I use that small span, because many of you are using that small bit to come to a final judgement on President Trump...making it fair to apply the same standard and context to his predecessors and so make a fair comparison.

Based on what you cited, it seems clear that you must think he IS the most conservative president...over that 5 months...that we've had since Reagan.

[Farish]

@Farish

Interesting article.  I agree with @Smokin Joe that those who are trying to get Trump removed from office are wasting their efforts at this point.

Frankly I would love to be proven wrong in my opinion of Trump, and to see him get a grip on himself and govern like a conservative.  I don't believe that will happen.  Many people wiser than I predicted his presidency would be chaotic, and although it's only a few months in, I don't expect a seventy year old man to pull off a major character renovation.

I can't place all of the blame on the "elites", as the article calls them.  Part of the blame lies with the primary voters.  You can be as angry as you want; I understand and share that anger at the useless GOP.  But you can't let it govern you to the point of abandoning reason.  Almost any of the candidates at those Republican debates would have been an improvement over Trump.  But people wanted to go with the one they believed was a smashmouth, the one who would take it to everybody who needed it.

I, too would love to be proven wrong about Trump, but agree that at age 70 he is unlikely to change.(Hell, at 61, I'm unlikely to!) What I don't understand are the people who seem surprised at his actions since being elected. He showed us quite plainly who/what he is during the election process.

[Cripplecreek]

@Mesaclone

That's because I'm tired of entertaining "whataboutism."

You're not stupid.  You know what Trump promised, and you know what he's backtracked on.  He made a lot of conservative-sounding promises.

Seems to me that removing Trump won't make America better but it could make republicanism better. Trump seems to be enabling a pro big govt sentiment among conservatives when making America better will require a turn to federalism.

[Mesaclone]

Seems to me that removing Trump won't make America better but it could make republicanism better. Trump seems to be enabling a pro big govt sentiment among conservatives when making America better will require a turn to federalism.

If another Republican president were removed, the Conservative movement in this country will be crushed by the Left. The Dems will wield power almost exclusively for a generation. Anyone hoping for that is a moron.

[Smokin Joe]

Seems to me that removing Trump won't make America better but it could make republicanism better. Trump seems to be enabling a pro big govt sentiment among conservatives when making America better will require a turn to federalism.

I really don't see Trump as doing anything but bringing the big government GOP out of the closet. They have exposed themselves, now. Their last excuse to get rid of the ACA is gone and they balked at making a jump they did numerous times in practice, right in the middle of the dog and pony show in front of a paying audience.
And that's just one issue...

[INVAR]

I really don't see Trump as doing anything but bringing the big government GOP out of the closet. They have exposed themselves, now. Their last excuse to get rid of the ACA is gone and they balked at making a jump they did numerous times in practice, right in the middle of the dog and pony show in front of a paying audience.
And that's just one issue...

That fact will be ignored, rendered irrelevant while they continue to insist that Trump is more Conservative than Reagan, Washington and Adams combined.

They have deified Trump as much as the Left deified Obama.

[Smokin Joe]

That fact will be ignored, rendered irrelevant while they continue to insist that Trump is more Conservative than Reagan, Washington and Adams combined.

They have deified Trump as much as the Left deified Obama.

We saw that during the primary, and for many it continues. A sad comment on how lost so many are.

...If all men count with you
but none too much...