This Is A Coup Against Our Right To Govern Ourselves

[endicom]

I don't have a Religion section and this thread is the reason why

I'm the OP and I wouldn't mind at all if you closed the thread.

@mystery-ak

[roamer_1]

Lighten up, Francis. Go start a thread of your own if you're that wound up about it.

LOL! Like I thought.

I'll just leave this here for Christians to mull over, as to the authenticity and continuity of the Book of Thomas with the synoptic Gospels:

Purportedly spoken by our Messiah:

(1) Simon Peter said to them: “Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life.”
(2) Jesus said: “Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male, so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you.”
(3) (But I say to you): “Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.” - 114 "gospel" of "Thomas"

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-versions-and-translations/the-gospel-of-thomas-114-sayings-of-jesus/

Nuff said. Have fun

[Emjay]

Jefferson had his own bible in which he cut out the miracles AND the sayings of Jesus he thought bogus. He was a Christian theist, not a fundamentalist in any sense of teh word. So rather than condemn him, I would praise the man. As for Christianity, I condemn only its distortions...and am an avid believer in the words of Jesus (as a guide, check out the Jesus Seminar's analysis of the Five Gospels for what Jesus likely did and did not say).

I have read the Jesus Seminar thing and it's interesting... not sure I put total faith in it but it's a good read.

[Emjay]

Who died and appointed you as a Mod?

Who appointed you as arbiter of consulting Mod.  Good grief.

[Emjay]

I don't have a Religion section and this thread is the reason why

Is it okay to give you a big Amen on that?  Or is that too religious?

[Mesaclone]

and they will laugh at you while sawing your head off with a dull kitchen knife.Yet in popular fiction there are no qualms about the slaughter of women and children in so many scenarios. Not to mention Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, all not so very long ago and perfectly secularly and Platonically justified. It is the application of Christian (second book, New Testament) beliefs that do not call for such slaughter, and despite 1945 years of that (less time for the book to be compiled, of course) we did it in all our righteousness. You cannot tell me that even today those same secular, rational people wouldn't nuke Pyonyang or Teheran or other cities full of women and children as an expediency. Yet every one of them would have said 'god' is on our side, from those running death camps in Poland to those who raped Nanking, and our own government, too. Sorry, but slaughter is common practice in warfare, whether it is with bullets, the sword, or simply starvation. The Israelites were at war, they vanquished their enemies in such a way as to eliminate reprisal. For the last 60 years we have generally failed to have the resolve to do so, and as such the slaughter of South Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, ongoing squabbles with the North Koreans, the Somalis (oh, we're importing them), and a host of others have led to a world full of people who want death for America, and who will not have your qualms. Do you believe in Hell? Do you believe that God, so frustrated with the corruption of His creations would destroy all but a few? That He would punish noncorporeal beings with eternal damnation? If so, the slaughter by the Israelites was nothing. But the Ten Commandments take on more gravity if you believe there is a downside to breaking them, and if no downside, why "Commandments", why not "Suggestions"? Do you believe that two cities and their inhabitants were destroyed (a microcosm of the flood) for their wickedness? They have not been found, yet all other biblical cities have. 
Great moral weight? It remains the all time best seller. As I said, it is the directions. When all else fails (and it will), consult it.

and they will laugh at you while sawing your head off with a dull kitchen knife
Yes, as they would to any of us given the chance.

Not to mention Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, all not so very long ago and perfectly secularly and Platonically justified.
Wait, these things happened and were carried out by "Christian" nations, not agnostic ones...so many have died in the name of religion, and so many others because religion was unable to curb the appetites of those who seek power. Not sure what your point is, but that is essentially the history of mankind.

The Israelites were at war, they vanquished their enemies in such a way as to eliminate reprisal.
I agree, this was very normal behavior for the era. However, in the bible god directly orders Israelites to kill women and children in places like Jericho. My point isn't that god actually ordered this, but that man justified their brutality by attributing it to god...an example of why we must understand that the bible is not literally true, but is a reflection of men's thoughts in many places, rather than gods.

Do you believe in Hell? Do you believe that God, so frustrated with the corruption of His creations would destroy all but a few? That He would punish non-corporeal beings with eternal damnation?
For there to be a hell, god would have to be a savage monster. Punishment to teach is moral. Punishment to set an example in a human lifespan...such as the death penalty...sets an example that may curb other violence. Punishment that is eternal, is cruel beyond comprehension and would be irrational...and god is the very epitome of rationality in my view. As such, a god that would do such a thing is a truly evil entity, not worthy of worship or respect. Fortunately, god is not such a monster, and things like hell are the creation of human minds seeking a way to "scare" followers into obedience.

But the Ten Commandments take on more gravity if you believe there is a downside to breaking them
They don't need more gravity, and they truly are meant to help us not to damn us. And yes, they are guidelines...not commands though certainly a culture like the early Israelites would see them as such. But god gives us free will, the greatest gift of all, and while he lets us face the consequences of our choices, he has no need to enforce his "helpful guides" with a "downside".

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, perhaps they were cities that were destroyed by tribal war or even natural disasters. Perhaps they are mostly myth. Archaeologists can make that determination. Its absurd however, to think god would directly kill babies and children...who most certainly lived there...to make some moral point about sin. That would fly in the face of free will and reason...not to mention morality. There is nothing wrong with taking good moral lessons from god....but as I said before..."the kingdom of god is in you, and all around you". You may find god in the bible, and that is good, but he can be found more clearly and more nearly in every atom of every moment in the universe.

[Mesaclone]

I have read the Jesus Seminar thing and it's interesting... not sure I put total faith in it but it's a good read.

I also don't take it as "Gospel"....pun intended!

I like that its based on cumulative views of a vast number of scholars, rather than being the work of just a few theologians. I greatly enjoyed the inclusion of the Gospel of Thomas and also the discussions about the Q Gospel (believed to be source material for the other Gospels AND Thomas).

[Mesaclone]

LOL! Like I thought.

I'll just leave this here for Christians to mull over, as to the authenticity and continuity of the Book of Thomas with the synoptic Gospels:

Purportedly spoken by our Messiah:

(1) Simon Peter said to them: “Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life.”
(2) Jesus said: “Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male, so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you.”
(3) (But I say to you): “Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.” - 114 "gospel" of "Thomas"

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-versions-and-translations/the-gospel-of-thomas-114-sayings-of-jesus/

Nuff said. Have fun

Jesus saying he'd make Mary the equal of his male disciples....is somehow bad in your view?
Or are you just not understanding what he was saying in the lexicon of his times?
What he says there, is paradigm shifting...he's elevating Mary Magdelene to disciple status...a truly profound act in a time of deep chauvinism. Further, he's saying women are the equal of men in attaining the kingdom of god and participating in religious life. In contrast, Paul repeatedly said women should literally shut up in church and just obey their husbands.

Nuff said. And having fun!

[Smokin Joe]

and they will laugh at you while sawing your head off with a dull kitchen knife
Yes, as they would to any of us given the chance.

Not to mention Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, all not so very long ago and perfectly secularly and Platonically justified.
Wait, these things happened and were carried out by "Christian" nations, not agnostic ones...so many have died in the name of religion, and so many others because religion was unable to curb the appetites of those who seek power. Not sure what your point is, but that is essentially the history of mankind.

The Israelites were at war, they vanquished their enemies in such a way as to eliminate reprisal.
I agree, this was very normal behavior for the era. However, in the bible god directly orders Israelites to kill women and children in places like Jericho. My point isn't that god actually ordered this, but that man justified their brutality by attributing it to god...an example of why must understand that the bible is not literally true, but is a reflection of men's thoughts in many places, rather than gods.

Do you believe in Hell? Do you believe that God, so frustrated with the corruption of His creations would destroy all but a few? That He would punish noncorporeal beings with eternal damnation?
If there is a hell, than god would have be a savage monster. Punishment to teach is moral. Punishment to set an example in a human lifespan...such as the death penalty...sets an example that may curb other violence. Punishment that is eternal, is cruel beyond comprehension. As such, a god that would do such a thing is a truly evil entity, not worthy of worship or respect. Fortunately, god is not such a monster, and things like hell are the creation of human minds seeking a way to "scare" followers into obedience.

But the Ten Commandments take on more gravity if you believe there is a downside to breaking them
They don't need more gravity, and they truly are meant to help us not to damn us. And yes, they are guidelines...not commands though certainly a culture like the early Israelites would see them as such. But god gives us free will, the greatest gift of all, and while he lets us face the consequences of our choices, he has no need to enforce his "helpful guides" with a "downside".

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, perhaps they were cities that were destroyed by tribal war or even natural disasters. Perhaps they are mostly myth. Archaeologists can make that determination. Its absurd however, to think god would directly kill babies and children...who most certainly lived there...to make some moral point about sin. That would fly in the face of free will and reason...not to mention morality. There is nothing wrong with taking good moral lessons from god....but as I said before..."the kingdom of god is in you, and all around you". You may find god in the bible, and that is good, but he can be found more clearly and more nearly in every atom of every moment in the universe.

Clearly we disagree. Where there is light, there is also darkness, the other side of reward is....?
Certainly there were women and children in the antediluvian world. Were those not eliminated, too? After all, Noah brought his with him.
You do not believe the Bible, by your statements. You consider a God who would destroy two cities for abomination a "monster", what do you think of Harry Truman? (Actually, more women and children were killed in the Tokyo firestorm). Not to mention the justices who ruled on Roe, facilitating the slaughter of 50,000,000 innocents (and counting).
What suffering hasn't man wrought, that you would malign God?
As for the idea of eternity as punishment, as opposed to reward, might not the absence of reward be a punishment? But that isn't what is written, and that is not an idea confined to the Judeo-Christian writings, either, the concept of eternal punishment (Look at Prometheus) so you would deem all ever considered a deity monsters?
Kinda sketchy way to treat The Creator, dontcha think?
I don't pretend to KNOW His mind, but the first one, right out of the gate pretty much warns us all:

Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Emphasis mine.

[Mesaclone]

Clearly we disagree. Where there is light, there is also darkness, the other side of reward is....?
Certainly there were women and children in the antediluvian world. Were those not eliminated, too? After all, Noah brought his with him.
You do not believe the Bible, by your statements. You consider a God who would destroy two cities for abomination a "monster", what do you think of Harry Truman? (Actually, more women and children were killed in the Tokyo firestorm). Not to mention the justices who ruled on Roe, facilitating the slaughter of 50,000,000 innocents (and counting).
What suffering hasn't man wrought, that you would malign God?
As for the idea of eternity as punishment, as opposed to reward, might not the absence of reward be a punishment? But that isn't what is written, and that is not an idea confined to the Judeo-Christian writings, either, the concept of eternal punishment (Look at Prometheus) so you would deem all ever considered a deity monsters?
Kinda sketchy way to treat The Creator, dontcha think?
I don't pretend to KNOW His mind, but the first one, right out of the gate pretty much warns us all: Emphasis mine.

There's clearly no such thing as an anti-diluvian world. The flood story is an almost carbon copy of early Sumerian and other Middle Eastern flood myths. Almost certainly, there were great floods and destruction, events from which these stories arose. But scientifically, such a supposition is beyond laughable. The world is billions of years old, the universe around 13-15 billion, and human life has existed in its modern form for at least 80000 years.  I believe the bible AS A METAPHOR when it comes to such stories, it cannot be believed literally without utterly setting aside rationality in favor of "just because I want to believe it".

As for Harry Truman, he isn't an omnipotent creator...if he were, he'd defeat Japan with a blink of his eyes and nobody would have to die as a consequence. But that's the point, its man that kills and brings slaughter...god is a being of love and reason and infinite power...and men who attribute this to god. God brings us only love, it is we who bring ourselves pain and suffering by inflicting it on one another.

Perhaps if we quit writing books (bible) where we blame god...as a way of exculpating our own evil choices...we would already be living in a godly world.

[Hoodat]

(3) (But I say to you): “Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.” - 114 "gospel" of "Thomas"

Jesus saying he'd make Mary the equal of his male disciples....is somehow bad in your view?

Whoa there, Hoss.  How did you make the jump from "every woman who makes herself male" to Jesus making a woman 'male'?  Embellish a lot?

[Mesaclone]

Jesus saying he'd make Mary the equal of his male disciples....is somehow bad in your view?


Whoa there, Hoss.  How did you make the jump from "every woman who makes herself male" to Jesus making a woman 'male'?  Embellish a lot?

In ancient Israeli society, women were an underclass. Making herself male meant, to become the equal of the men around a woman...that is, to see herself as their spiritual equal. He goes on to make a very clear point, that women are the spiritual equals of men in Jesus and god's view, and that part of his teaching was to raise women to equality in god. That is a huge break from the standing view of society at the time, and shows just how revolutionary Jesus was in his thought and philosophy.

An interesting side note, in some early writings Jesus is portrayed as the husband of Mary Magdelene and she is his leading disciple. A stunning concept in 1st century Israel.

Not sure where you're getting an embellishment in there. I simply expressed in plain language what Jesus is saying in that verse. Any other secular scholar reading those phrases would understand it no differently.

[Hoodat]

Not sure where you're getting an embellishment in there. I simply expressed in plain language what Jesus is saying in that verse. Any other secular scholar reading those phrases would understand it no differently.

You went from a woman doing it (i.e. making herself male) to Jesus doing it.

[INVAR]

You went from a woman doing it (i.e. making herself male) to Jesus doing it.

Which is why those gnostic "gospels" have nothing to do with Jesus or God.  They do not comport with any part of the rest of canonical scripture.

Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?[/color] - Matthew 19:4-5

That those 'scriptures' would purport Jesus to say he would make a woman into a man and that every woman who makes herself into a man will enter the Kingdom is abject crap.

You are dealing with a person who says the bible is bogus, denies the divinity of Jesus, does not believe in the Resurrection, says Satan does not exist and God is found wherever you find him/her under rocks and such, and yet has ascribed authority to themselves to denounce scripture as evil and declare anyone governed by scripture or advocating adherence to it's principles to be evil.

[geronl]

I have read the Jesus Seminar thing and it's interesting... not sure I put total faith in it but it's a good read.

Jesus Seminar is anti-Christian heresy

[MOD3]

I'm the OP and I wouldn't mind at all if you closed the thread.

@mystery-ak

This thread is so far off the rails it may as well be on a dirt road.  We don't do religion, and this thread is a great example of what happens when we try.  Locked.