Author Topic: Two years after shootout, Twin Peaks resolutions remain elusive [Waco]  (Read 1633 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline don-o

  • Worldview Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,280
  • FR Class of '98
Two years after shootout, Twin Peaks resolutions remain elusive

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-peaks-biker-shooting/two-years-after-shootout-twin-peaks-resolutions-remain-elusive/article_c912f611-4408-5cc3-96ee-de135701e95b.html

In the two years since James “Patrick” Harris was arrested after the Twin Peaks shootout in Waco, he lost the lease on his apartment, was rejected for a job with a state health and human services agency and was kicked out of Mexico while on the way to work with sick children and Dr. Patch Adams.

All because he rode to Waco with a few friends as members of the Grim Guardian motorcycle group on May 17, 2015, he said.

Judy Bergman said her husband, George, hardly rides his motorcycle anymore. It used to be his passion. Now he rides occasionally with his son.

She said her husband, who owns his own trucking company in the Dallas area, has to be careful when he drives because police officers who initially pull him over for a defective taillight come back to his cab with their hands on their guns and order him out of his truck after checking records and finding his arrest at Twin Peaks.

He once delivered goods to Army bases and other areas with high security. Not anymore, she said.

A lot has happened in the two years since nine bikers died and 20 others were injured during a meeting of the Texas Coalition of Clubs & Independents at the former restaurant known for its cold beer and scantily clad waitresses. The restaurant never reopened, and the building is up for sale.

The McLennan County District Attorney’s Office sought and obtained indictments on 155 of the almost 200 bikers arrested in the wake of the shootout; federal civil rights suits have been filed on behalf of more than 100 bikers, including one seeking $1 billion in damages; there were efforts to disqualify District Attorney Abel Reyna from the criminal cases; millions of documents have been released to defense attorneys through the discovery process; and bikers have rallied on the courthouse steps to decry their treatment at the hands of Waco and McLennan County officials.

snip
-------------------------------------------------------

@Elderberry

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
And the miscarriage of justice continues...Two years and they are still deciding what 'evidence' to lose?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Hey, @don-o, you are welcome to post these in the Texas Board.  I know a  lot of us are very interested in the proceedings. 

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Its cases like this that make me question Texas.  Seems like there are a lot of out of control prosecutors in Texas.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Its cases like this that make me question Texas.  Seems like there are a lot of out of control prosecutors in Texas.

Well, it is a big place.  But, right off, I'm not thinking of anything like this case.  Do you know of some others?

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Well, it is a big place.  But, right off, I'm not thinking of anything like this case.  Do you know of some others?

Travis County DA has a bad history, although Margaret Moore may be making changes.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Well, it is a big place.  But, right off, I'm not thinking of anything like this case.  Do you know of some others?

I don't have a list but there are numerous questionable cases.   Tom Delay is one case I can think of.   I suppose almost any state has some but the Twin Peaks incident points to a seriously corrupted justice system.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline don-o

  • Worldview Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,280
  • FR Class of '98
If anyone needs a refresher....

The Wild Bunch

Two years after a deadly Waco shoot-out, the local district attorney is trying to take down the Bandidos and Cossacks biker clubs. It won’t be easy.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/news/the-wild-bunch/

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
W. Patrick Swanton is no stranger to shootouts, though. This is the second Waco 'shootout' he has involvement with.

From: http://www.nicp.net/?page_id=45

Quote
While in Special Operations Swanton was also involved in the aftermath at Mount Carmel and was awarded the Police Commendation bar along with his other teammates for their involvement.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
W. Patrick Swanton is no stranger to shootouts, though. This is the second Waco 'shootout' he has involvement with.

From: http://www.nicp.net/?page_id=45

Yeah it takes a hero to shoot at women and children fleeing a burning building.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Yeah it takes a hero to shoot at women and children fleeing a burning building.
The FBI HRT comes to mind ("Hostage Rescue Team", including Lon Horiuchi, the guy who shot Vicki Weaver)

Oh wait, geeez, when the FLIR experts stopped dying off precipitously, they found one who said those weren't muzzle flashes, they were sunlight reflecting off debris...or Venus reflecting off Swamp gas on fire reflected by a weather balloon or something...but NOT gunfire from a sniper hide.

"If I might have your attention! Just look at this little light, folks..."
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 03:16:52 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Look up FUBAR in the dictionary and this case should be the example.

Offline don-o

  • Worldview Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,280
  • FR Class of '98
Look up FUBAR in the dictionary and this case should be the example.

Or look up megalomaniac and see a pic of Abel Reyna. 

Offline Elderberry

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,777


"These are real people’s lives, and no one seems to give a damn.

Not speaking up just because one isn’t like ‘these people’ is not an excuse.

Trust me, they’re just like all of us."

“As was famously said many years ago, the danger in not speaking up is that when they come for you, there may not be anyone left to speak."




This is why I'm driven to follow this case.

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,461
Oh wait, geeez, when the FLIR experts stopped dying off precipitously, they found one who said those weren't muzzle flashes, they were sunlight reflecting off debris...or Venus reflecting off Swamp gas on fire reflected by a weather balloon or something...but NOT gunfire from a sniper hide.


My old man and me watched that whole thing go down on TV...
When they started poking holes in the upwind side of the building with the tanks, he said, "they're gonna burn it down, watch and see." I immediately understood he was right...

Sure as sh*t. And the whole thing scraped off clean, and hauled away, seems like just as soon as it was cool enough for handling...

Move along folks.. nothing to see here...
 

Offline Elderberry

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,777
Well, it is a big place.  But, right off, I'm not thinking of anything like this case.  Do you know of some others?

Houston police to investigate arrests of 278 people

Published: Tuesday, August 20, 2002

http://lubbockonline.com/stories/082002/upd_075-3511.shtml

This case went on for about ten years.

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
My old man and me watched that whole thing go down on TV...
When they started poking holes in the upwind side of the building with the tanks, he said, "they're gonna burn it down, watch and see." I immediately understood he was right...

Sure as sh*t. And the whole thing scraped off clean, and hauled away, seems like just as soon as it was cool enough for handling...

Move along folks.. nothing to see here...
If you watched the flags, they waited for a windy day, and the fire started in the upwind end. When I saw it, as a former firefighter, I recognized exactly what they had done.
I'd bet it was a blast furnace in there with fire blowing down the hallways, and there is no way that or using Methylene Chloride as the carrier fluid for the CS they pumped in (active ingredient in carburetor cleaners like Tyme, and flammable). They were not going to let anyone out alive, and they were going to blame the Davidians. They'd spent too long trying to make an obscure sect of the Seventh Day Adventists out to be a Jim Jones Cult to not use it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,461
If you watched the flags, they waited for a windy day, and the fire started in the upwind end. When I saw it, as a former firefighter, I recognized exactly what they had done.
I'd bet it was a blast furnace in there with fire blowing down the hallways, and there is no way that or using Methylene Chloride as the carrier fluid for the CS they pumped in (active ingredient in carburetor cleaners like Tyme, and flammable). They were not going to let anyone out alive, and they were going to blame the Davidians. They'd spent too long trying to make an obscure sect of the Seventh Day Adventists out to be a Jim Jones Cult to not use it.

Yep. They were purposefully venting the building from the upwind side. Predictable outcome. It was either nefarious, or ineptitude of epic, EPIC proportions.

I had my doubts at Ruby Ridge. But those doubts found justification at Waco... and Waco again.

Offline don-o

  • Worldview Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,280
  • FR Class of '98
Yep. They were purposefully venting the building from the upwind side. Predictable outcome. It was either nefarious, or ineptitude of epic, EPIC proportions.

I had my doubts at Ruby Ridge. But those doubts found justification at Waco... and Waco again.

There is one man to put the finger on for Twin Peaks aftermath and that is Abel Reyna. He owns it all.

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,461
There is one man to put the finger on for Twin Peaks aftermath and that is Abel Reyna. He owns it all.

Right... unless it was the feds, and Reyna is the bagholder... which is enough, considering his stance, to make him deserving of whatever he gets anyway.


Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Yep. They were purposefully venting the building from the upwind side. Predictable outcome. It was either nefarious, or ineptitude of epic, EPIC proportions.

I had my doubts at Ruby Ridge. But those doubts found justification at Waco... and Waco again.
I didn't have any doubts at Ruby Ridge, either. I was surprised that any got out alive, and if it hadn't been for Bo Gritz, they might not have. From some well copied videotape a friend loaned me made by local folks and what I have been able to piece together, is that Randy Weaver needed to raise some money, and put the word out he had a couple of shotguns for sale. There are separatists in the neighborhood (or were) and the Feds wanted to snoop them.
They bought the shotguns on the condition Weaver cut them off and specified where. One eighth an inch too short. Then they came back at him with weapons charges and made him an offer he couldn't refuse: spy on your neighbors for us and we'll go easy on you.
He refused, and said do what you have to do, I'm not spying on the neighbors.
They sent him a notice to appear after the hearing, then started snooping the hill when he hadn't showed ("Failure to appear on a weapons charge"). That's when Sammy and the dog and Marshall Deagan got shot (KIA) in an exchange that likely started with the snoopers shooting the dog, and Kevin Harris was wounded. The rest of the story came out, pretty much, afterward. Gerry Spence thought it was such an egregious miscarriage of justice that he took the case(s) pro bono, even though he didn't particularly agree with some of Weaver's beliefs or even like Weaver. It was a matter of principle.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,461
I didn't have any doubts at Ruby Ridge, either. I was surprised that any got out alive, and if it hadn't been for Bo Gritz, they might not have.

Right. I was not saying that I doubt that any longer, but at the time I was blind... It was Ruby Ridge that started changing my mind... Precisely because it was too blatant to sweep under my metaphorical rug.

Before that, I believed 'government is the enemy' but more along the lines of tax brackets and onerous laws. Ruby Ridge showed me a level of threat I had never before considered.

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Right. I was not saying that I doubt that any longer, but at the time I was blind... It was Ruby Ridge that started changing my mind... Precisely because it was too blatant to sweep under my metaphorical rug.

Before that, I believed 'government is the enemy' but more along the lines of tax brackets and onerous laws. Ruby Ridge showed me a level of threat I had never before considered.
Google Kenyon Ballew. I have known for a long time...even before I could vote.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
If you watched the flags, they waited for a windy day, and the fire started in the upwind end. When I saw it, as a former firefighter, I recognized exactly what they had done.
I'd bet it was a blast furnace in there with fire blowing down the hallways, and there is no way that or using Methylene Chloride as the carrier fluid for the CS they pumped in (active ingredient in carburetor cleaners like Tyme, and flammable). They were not going to let anyone out alive, and they were going to blame the Davidians. They'd spent too long trying to make an obscure sect of the Seventh Day Adventists out to be a Jim Jones Cult to not use it.

@Smokin Joe
Some of the people inside weren't killed by the fire or the shooting.   They were killed by the CS gas.  Some were asphyxiated because the CS was pumped into the building in high enough concentrations to replace all the oxygen.   Some were killed by compounds released by the burning CS gas.   One little girl, about 10 if I recall correctly, was found bent in half backwards.   When CS gas burns it releases a chemical (Phosgene I think but I cant find it) that is considered a chemical weapon and is banned for war use by treaty.     Among other things it causes severe muscle contractions.   The muscles in the little girls back contracted so severely they bent her in half.   The chemical was also found in her lungs which indicate she was alive when this happened.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
@Smokin Joe
Some of the people inside weren't killed by the fire or the shooting.   They were killed by the CS gas.  Some were asphyxiated because the CS was pumped into the building in high enough concentrations to replace all the oxygen.   Some were killed by compounds released by the burning CS gas.   One little girl, about 10 if I recall correctly, was found bent in half backwards.   When CS gas burns it releases a chemical (Phosgene I think but I cant find it) that is considered a chemical weapon and is banned for war use by treaty.     Among other things it causes severe muscle contractions.   The muscles in the little girls back contracted so severely they bent her in half.   The chemical was also found in her lungs which indicate she was alive when this happened.
There is no doubt in my mind that it was mass murder. CS was banned for use in warfare and is actually a powder, not a gas, which is why it required a volatile carrier liquid to pump it in and spray it in the building. The boom also crushed doorways and destroyed stairwells, a feature of that part of the operation more designed to keep people trapped rather than enhance escape.
What still nags at me is "Why?" Was the group selected at random, or was there a reason buried somewhere, some obscure association that led to the whole operation. I am not buying the official excuses. They'd been checked out by the CPS on allegations of abuse who found nothing. Nothing is an extremely clean bill of health when you deal with people who can fabricate a case on even less, so the whole abuse thing doesn't fly.
As we have been assured, the sexual behaviours of consenting adults are sacrosanct, so what is there to assault a building full of men, women, and children, there, even if there was some hanky-panky going on?
They had an FFL. As such, their stock was open to examination and their records to review at any time, per federal law. That wasn't why the BATF was there. They'd even been invited, no mass raid needed.
Grenade casings? Torn box and the UPS guy found them? Really? Could have been cleared up with a phone call. Take a number...novelties are (or used to be) common at gun shows and in catalogues as a joke. (I know what happened to Kenyon Ballew, so I don't have anything around that even resembles something that is not legal just because you never know when some fool will misinterpret it. But then, what I have is not on display, anyway.
"Meth Lab"? Not one person on any raid team had the requisite courses in shutting down a meth lab or dealing with chemicals involved from either the DEA of OSHA. Right. Not much of a concern, because those labs then were notorious for blowing up and destroying the evidence if they were cooking when the raid went down.
What chemicals they had went to an auto repair place (body and fender) off the main 'campus', anyway. Why not raid it?
There was another reason, aside from the official reasons, but the question remains: what?
Alamo-Girl had some tremendous files on the siege and raids. I do not know what became of her, but she did a lot of digging. Information available at the time was not complimentary to the administration at the time of the initial raid, the conflagration, nor administrations which preceded the one in which the events took place at Waco. That would step on a lot of perceptions of the past that I won't mess with here. The information is still out there.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis