Author Topic: New Jersey governor refuses to ban child marriage because 'it would conflict with religious customs'  (Read 4255 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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I'm really curious who will be next.

Polygamists are pretty far up there, considering who this placates.

Then there are the bestiality folks,

And for that matter, all the pederasts out there, married or not.

Will slavery make a comeback, starting with children?

How about Female genital mutilation and "honor killings"?

How can the State approve a contractual (state licensed) arrangement--of any kind--much less a "marriage",  in which one of the parties is a minor? At some point even parental consent isn't considered viable.

You've forgotten necrophiles... After all, who does it hurt?

Online Smokin Joe

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You've forgotten necrophiles... After all, who does it hurt?
You'd think it would be tough to have a lasting "relationship"... :terror:
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline roamer_1

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You'd think it would be tough to have a lasting "relationship"... :terror:

There once was a man named Dave
Who kept a dead whore in a cave...

For the sake of civility, I will refrain from continuing that particular limerick.
But it is apropos, and came to mind...  :shrug:

Offline Suppressed

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According to that source, in 1880 (roughly 140 years ago, and as such things were first being established) the youngest was 7 in only one State: Delaware, as you cited. That was the only one in single digits. By 1920, roughly 100 years back, the youngest was 14 in Georgia, all others at 16. For the last hundred years (well, 97 to be sure), the age of consent has been considered to be 16 or older with that one exception.

Nice data parsing there. 

You failed to note that by far the most common age of consent in the 19th Century was 10...80% of the states had 10 or less as the age of consent.

So my point stands...times change, and we now have people wanting the law to prevent pregnant teenagers from marrying, even with parental consent or judge's order.
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And so the usual idiocy from those who can't be bothered to read the article.
Exactly.
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“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Taxcontrol

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Baking a cake for a homosexual "marriage" conflicts with religious customs .... just saying.

Online Smokin Joe

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Nice data parsing there. 

You failed to note that by far the most common age of consent in the 19th Century was 10...80% of the states had 10 or less as the age of consent.

So my point stands...times change, and we now have people wanting the law to prevent pregnant teenagers from marrying, even with parental consent or judge's order.
Yes, I can parse data, too.  :tongue2: Only one in the single digits at that source. No mention of the 'awful papists' (of which I is one). I sure don't recall anyone mentioning marriage at that age (unless you were Muslim or Hindu).

And you failed to mention that even as late as 1880 there were many places where there was no "age of consent", that it is a relatively new concept. Besides, if you go back, you mentioned the last 100 years. Maybe for three of them, but the rest have been considerably higher.
From your link:http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24
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Information on the ages used historically in western age of consent laws is not readily available. This table has been compiled from a combination of historical and contemporary sources. By 1880, the first date chosen, many western nations had established an age of consent for the first time, typically of 12 or 13 years. By 1920, when the influence of reform campaigns that established a new link between the age of consent and prostitution had run its course, most had revised their age upward, to 14 or 15 in European nations, and 16 in the Anglo-American world. In the last decades of the 20th century, states and nations with ages below those averages amended their laws to move closer to them. In Europe that growing conformity owed much to moves toward greater European integration. Given that the rationale for the age of consent has remained essentially unchanged in its emphasis on the need to protect 'immature' children, the table highlights the shifting and various definitions of childhood employed across time and cultures.


From your OP:
Not much more than a hundred years ago, many states had age of consent laws down to 8 years old, and Roman Catholic Canon Law allowed marriage to age 7.

Only one State cited as having a single digit age of consent/

As for Canon law, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_Catholic_Church

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During the Middle Ages marriages were arranged, sometimes as early as birth, and these early pledges to marry were often used to ensure treaties between different royal families, nobles, and heirs of fiefdoms. The church resisted these imposed unions, and increased the number of causes for nullification of these arrangements.[50] As Christianity spread during the Roman period and the Middle Ages, the idea of free choice in selecting marriage partners increased and spread with it.[50]


Marriage as a child is a pretty moldy concept, and then not something conducted with the wholehearted approval of the Church, and was usually done to cement treaties. Royalty and Nobility far more than the commoners, and a very old concept.

A while ago, conservatives would have been glad to have a pregnant teen marry her boyfriend.

Actually, conservatives would prefer the teen not get pregnant out of wedlock in the first place. Not even impending bastardy can justify the shackles of a bad marriage conducted "for the children".


Now, TBR wants to be sure the child is born a bastard.

Now, now, TBR is a website, code in a machine and has no feeling in and of itself. I doubt it would be fair to say that even the people who post here support the ordinary practice of the conception and rearing of children outside of the gentle penumbra of a good home, a father and mother who will care for and love the children, wrapped in the security of a good marriage, although most would find a even single parent who cares for their child preferable to abortion.

 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Suppressed

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Besides, if you go back, you mentioned the last 100 years.

Yeah, I went back, and I didn't say that.

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By 1880, the first date chosen, many western nations had established an age of consent for the first time, typically of 12 or 13 years.

Yes, many western nations.

And I wrote of individual states of the United States of America.

American ages of consent were lower than typical elsewhere in the western world.

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Only one State cited as having a single digit age of consent/

Fair enough.  I meant "as low as", but you're right, the way I worded it didn't convey that.

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Marriage as a child is a pretty moldy concept, and then not something conducted with the wholehearted approval of the Church, and was usually done to cement treaties. Royalty and Nobility far more than the commoners, and a very old concept.

Yes.  If I recall correctly, the papal words on the subject referred to it being allowable as low as 7 "if necessary" or something like that.  But it was in Canon Law, put in during Medieval times.

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Actually, conservatives would prefer the teen not get pregnant out of wedlock in the first place.

I'm sure conservatives would prefer not having war, too, but that doesn't make them pacifists.   Sometimes events occur different from the preferred path, and we can make judgments on what is best from that point in time.

It used to be, conservatives would prefer a good marriage.

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Not even impending bastardy can justify the shackles of a bad marriage conducted "for the children".

Which is it: Are you implying all marriages are bad, or that all mid-teen marriages should be banned because some might be bad?  Either way, I think it's wrong.

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Now, now, TBR is a website, code in a machine and has no feeling in and of itself.

A synecdochal allusion, to be sure, but every commenter to that point had appeared to express that opinion, so I think it was a justifiable rhetorical hyperbole.


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I doubt it would be fair to say that even the people who post here support the ordinary practice of the conception and rearing of children outside of the gentle penumbra of a good home, a father and mother who will care for and love the children, wrapped in the security of a good marriage, although most would find a even single parent who cares for their child preferable to abortion.

Agreed. 

Though not relevant to the point.

The question isn't what is preferred in an ideal world, but what about the imperfect case.

and my point stands that in the past, most people would have preferred a pregnant teen mother get married, and those who support this proposed legislation would ban that.
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline r9etb

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and my point stands that in the past, most people would have preferred a pregnant teen mother get married, and those who support this proposed legislation would ban that.

And according to the article,

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The New Jersey bill would have prohibited any marriage of children under age 18.

Mr Christie conditionally vetoed the measure, sending it back to the state legislature with proposed changes. He said it should have an exception so a judge can approve marriages for 16- and 17-year-olds.

Not a very objectionable stipulation, unless one sees the entire world through certain filters.

Wingnut

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Biden had to come from somewhere....But so did Ceaser Romney.

We always used the rule of thumb. "Fifteen'll get you twenty..." when we were younger.


QFT
It was gospel in my area too. 

Offline Restored

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I'm OK with it going to 16 with parental approval but 16-18 ain't the problem. The problem is 9 year-olds and that's what Christie wants to support for "cultural reasons". 
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Offline Suppressed

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Not a very objectionable stipulation, unless one sees the entire world through certain filters.

Agreed, @r9etb.
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline r9etb

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I'm OK with it going to 16 with parental approval but 16-18 ain't the problem. The problem is 9 year-olds and that's what Christie wants to support for "cultural reasons".

Do you have a cite for that assertion?

Offline skeeter

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Do you have a cite for that assertion?

@Restored @r9etb

Christie may not have mentioned 9 year olds but, coincidentally or not, Sharia law stipulates that a father may not commit his daughter to marriage without her consent before the age of 9.

And I believe Sharia qualifies as 'religious custom'.

Offline Sanguine

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@Restored @r9etb

Christie may not have mentioned 9 year olds but, coincidentally or not, Sharia law stipulates that a father may not commit his daughter to marriage without her consent before the age of 9.

And I believe Sharia qualifies as 'religious custom'.

Yes, as far as I know, neither Christianity or Judaism specify an age.

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"It is disingenuous to hold that a 16-year-old may never consent to marriage, although New Jersey law permits the very same 16-year-old to consent to sex or obtain an abortion without so much as parental knowledge, let alone consent.  That inconsistency in logic undercuts the alleged logic of an outright ban."  --Chris Christie
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Offline skeeter

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I wonder why Christie mentioned "religious customs" then.

Offline r9etb

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Christie may not have mentioned 9 year olds but, coincidentally or not, Sharia law stipulates that a father may not commit his daughter to marriage without her consent before the age of 9.
And I believe Sharia qualifies as 'religious custom'.

That's all you've got?


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I find it sad and creepy when anyone tries to justify child marriage and pedophilia because "centuries ago it was more common and accepted"....

Online Smokin Joe

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Yeah, I went back, and I didn't say that.

Yes, many western nations.

And I wrote of individual states of the United States of America.
Both were on the list, and the information was on the website.
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American ages of consent were lower than typical elsewhere in the western world.
Kids grew up fast on the frontier, and the whole idea was new.
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Fair enough.  I meant "as low as", but you're right, the way I worded it didn't convey that.

Yes.  If I recall correctly, the papal words on the subject referred to it being allowable as low as 7 "if necessary" or something like that.  But it was in Canon Law, put in during Medieval times.
Doubtless, as in the source I cited, at the pressure of secular leaders (Royalty and nobility). Also from that source, the practice was not met with great approval, nor widespread. Hindus and Muslims practiced child betrothal and marriage more often. BTW berating that as "Catholic" prior to the Reformation tends to indicate it wasn't a Protestant practice, but there were no Protestants yet, only heretics.  :shrug:
 
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I'm sure conservatives would prefer not having war, too, but that doesn't make them pacifists.   
irrelevant strawman
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Sometimes events occur different from the preferred path, and we can make judgments on what is best from that point in time.
right.
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It used to be, conservatives would prefer a good marriage.
I believe Conservatives still prefer a good marriage. Sometimes, no marriage is better than an obviously bad one, though. Case in point, I know a young lady who was going to reach the altar with a bun in the oven. She stopped by her fiance's to finish up on some details for the wedding and found him in bed with an old girlfriend. No wedding. In retrospect, she did the right thing and now has a very bright 11 year old daughter. He, however is a mean drunk, druggie, philanderer, and can't keep a job. I think she made the right choices, at least after the getting pregnant thing.
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Which is it: Are you implying all marriages are bad, or that all mid-teen marriages should be banned because some might be bad?  Either way, I think it's wrong.
Neither. (Seriously, "saying all marriages are bad?" Where did that come from?) Saying All anything is 'bad' is usually foolish. I'm not saying that marriages are bad, SOME are, SOME aren't. 50% end in divorce. That says that something isn't right. Those are people who have allegedly become adults. Before that, with even less mature judgement, I would not even give 50/50 odds, and then there is the complication of having to support a family. Better yet to not bother going through the motions of procreation until people are ready to deal with the possible outcome, but that's back to the ideal world we don't live in.
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A synecdochal allusion, to be sure, but every commenter to that point had appeared to express that opinion, so I think it was a justifiable rhetorical hyperbole.
yeah, whatever babble.
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Agreed. 

Though not relevant to the point.
The question isn't what is preferred in an ideal world, but what about the imperfect case.
and my point stands that in the past, most people would have preferred a pregnant teen mother get married, and those who support this proposed legislation would ban that.
This isn't the past, though. And the issue isn't one of teenage unwed mothers, although there are plenty of those around any more, it is of "not banning child marriage because it would conflict with religious customs" which is likely directly linked to Islamic pedophilia. What's next, polygamy? (If those sorts of concessions are forthcoming, someone owes the LDS Church a really big apology.)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 09:38:48 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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I find it sad and creepy when anyone tries to justify child marriage and pedophilia because "centuries ago it was more common and accepted"....

That woukd, indeed, be odd.  I've never seen it happen, though. Have you?
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Online Smokin Joe

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And according to the article,

Not a very objectionable stipulation, unless one sees the entire world through certain filters.
In most states, marriage can occur below the age of consent with parental approval. Or is the state the parent, now, too? I still don't see what that has to do with "religious customs".
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 09:43:02 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Suppressed

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This bill: 
"New Jersey...where 17 is old enough to join the military and risk getting your brains blown out, or decide when to pull the trigger and blow another man's brains out, but too young to get married."

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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Suppressed

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In most states, marriage can occur below the age of consent with parental approval. Or is the state the parent, now, too? I still don't see what that has to do with "religious customs".

This bill was designed to specifically remove parental approval!

I'm suspecting you didn't do any reading beyond eating up the liberal headline of The Independent.
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline skeeter

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