Author Topic: Levin: Biggest News Yesterday Was Not Obamacare … and 'This Is Going to Be an Earthquake'  (Read 21891 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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It is my belief that the most serious problems evolve around the federal government representatives that are chosen, not the state reps.

The people are always best served by those who are closest to them. It is far easier to reach out to a state rep or Senator than it is a Congressional one.  Electing people to serve in DC insulates them remarkably from the people they supposedly serve, and hence form their own agenda with similar colleagues to preserve their jobs.  It is small wonder that the manipulation of their own self-serving goals achieves a 96% average retention of an elected representative to Congress, as an example.  Think state reps are that high?
No, they aren't. Because from time to time, state reps have to make the sorts of decisions which gore someone's ox. Those decisions are almost always matters of revenue generated or distributed, and every state distributes more revenue than they generate. How can this be? The states get Federally collected/created money to distribute as highway construction contracts, grants, Medicaid, Social Welfare programs, and a host of other handouts the State governments get to administer. That way the guy next door who does that job is insulated from the effects of his decisions because the revenue required for those handouts does not have to come completely from taxpayers who live across the street. That is the State/Federal symbiosis. Those at the Federal level were selected to 'bring home the bacon' from Washington DC, and commonly keep their job if they do that well, regardless of other votes they make. Those in the GOP at the State level selected that candidate and backed them to do just that. Not to uphold, protect, or defend the Constitution of the United States nor to champion state Sovereignty (God forbid!) but to get that money to the statehouse to divvy up to keep the folks aback at home happy so the GOP could grow and prosper. The two are joined at the umbilical that provides campaign support and funding within the State, that leads back to the coffers and donors of the State level GOP. One hand washes the other. The taxpayers fetch the water, and if they think they are hauling it for the guy in Washington, the guy across the street gets a pass. In the meantime, the State GOP will back the guy in Washington, and what are the voters going to do? Vote Democrat?
Neither Party is interested in chopping up this scheme, and both parties will work to subvert any attempt to do otherwise.
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Placing one's trust in a state representative instead of a federal one assists in returning power back to the people.  State reps cannot insulate themselves nearly as much from their citizens, which makes them more accountable.
Which gives them all the more incentive to keep the status quo. See my comment above. They are accountable for the collection of fewer funds than they distribute because the Federal Government is providing funds to the State. Get the Feds out of that, and the States have to provide (taxes and fees) all of the revenue they distribute, and that issue will get much more sensitive.
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You seem to suggest that all reps are the same, whether they are state or federal.  I believe this is not the case.
Nope, I did not suggest that, they have different jobs in different places. The Federal Rep brings home the bacon (to the state), the State Rep divvies it up (more locally, but without having to raise it at the state level). It is not in the long term job security interest of either to go back to a Constitutionally constrained Federal Government,  because there would be less bacon to bring back, and the state rep would have to raise the funds he distributes or distribute less, or both, none of which are popular with the electorate who is waiting by the teat.
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You may even have the opportunity to have a neighbor who is your state rep or state senator.  Easy to give him an earful and he will stay tuned into your needs.  What's the chance of having a neighbor that works in Congress?  He stays in DC most of the time.
I have had a not-quite but nearby state rep. I have given him an earful on occasion. But the earfuls he got from people whose needs included some form of pecuniary exchange for services rendered (construction contracts, highway funding, and the like) seem to be the earfuls that bring significant donations to reelection campaigns. When the contract for highway construction is awarded, he gets kudos from the awardee, regardless of where the funding came from, but if he voted to raise the state gas tax to get that funding he'd be the jackass of the week. Having the federal government provide that money (or a significant fraction) insulates him from that onerous task and provides job security. Why would he want to change that? Who, in State legislatures anywhere, will stand on principle over pragmatism to take the heat for doing what needs to be done from people who know where they live? Darned few. That guy in DC can take it, and no one will even knock on his door.
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I understand the federal money trough people feed from.  However,  a state official recognizes ceding power to the feds limits him on his own power, as he cannot guarantee by trusting DC that he will have that money trough always flowing.

And bureaucracy.  Bureaucrats in his own state are much more accountable to him that a bureaucrat in DC.  He has every incentive to fight to get authority to the state, whether it is for power or money.
I have just explained why he does not have that incentive. Add to that, that the display of such incentive threatens the power politics balance within his own party, and the party might not find so much support for him as a challenger next election. He isn't going to Washington, and he knows it. He won't get tapped for Governor, and he knows it. This is as high in the food chain as he is going, as much power and prestige as he is going to get. Is he going to risk that for people who will only be upset by the result (more direct taxation he will have to approve or a cut in services or both?). Nope, and I wager, considering the caliber of candidates produced and backed by State Party machines that that is the majority as things stand.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Since you seem so good at pointing our flaws in the Amendment process, why not go all-in and advocate stripping away all the Constitutional Amendments passed to date, since you do not believe there can any good in doing any amendments at all?
That's just silly.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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No, they aren't. Because from time to time, state reps have to make the sorts of decisions which gore someone's ox. Those decisions are almost always matters of revenue generated or distributed, and every state distributes more revenue than they generate. How can this be? The states get Federally collected/created money to distribute as highway construction contracts, grants, Medicaid, Social Welfare programs, and a host of other handouts the State governments get to administer. That way the guy next door who does that job is insulated from the effects of his decisions because the revenue required for those handouts does not have to come completely from taxpayers who live across the street. That is the State/Federal symbiosis. Those at the Federal level were selected to 'bring home the bacon' from Washington DC, and commonly keep their job if they do that well, regardless of other votes they make. Those in the GOP at the State level selected that candidate and backed them to do just that. Not to uphold, protect, or defend the Constitution of the United States nor to champion state Sovereignty (God forbid!) but to get that money to the statehouse to divvy up to keep the folks aback at home happy so the GOP could grow and prosper. The two are joined at the umbilical that provides campaign support and funding within the State, that leads back to the coffers and donors of the State level GOP. One hand washes the other. The taxpayers fetch the water, and if they think they are hauling it for the guy in Washington, the guy across the street gets a pass. In the meantime, the State GOP will back the guy in Washington, and what are the voters going to do? Vote Democrat?
Neither Party is interested in chopping up this scheme, and both parties will work to subvert any attempt to do otherwise.Which gives them all the more incentive to keep the status quo. See my comment above. They are accountable for the collection of fewer funds than they distribute because the Federal Government is providing funds to the State. Get the Feds out of that, and the States have to provide (taxes and fees) all of the revenue they distribute, and that issue will get much more sensitive. Nope, I did not suggest that, they have different jobs in different places. The Federal Rep brings home the bacon (to the state), the State Rep divvies it up (more locally, but without having to raise it at the state level). It is not in the long term job security interest of either to go back to a Constitutionally constrained Federal Government,  because there would be less bacon to bring back, and the state rep would have to raise the funds he distributes or distribute less, or both, none of which are popular with the electorate who is waiting by the teat.I have had a not-quite but nearby state rep. I have given him an earful on occasion. But the earfuls he got from people whose needs included some form of pecuniary exchange for services rendered (construction contracts, highway funding, and the like) seem to be the earfuls that bring significant donations to reelection campaigns. When the contract for highway construction is awarded, he gets kudos from the awardee, regardless of where the funding came from, but if he voted to raise the state gas tax to get that funding he'd be the jackass of the week. Having the federal government provide that money (or a significant fraction) insulates him from that onerous task and provides job security. Why would he want to change that? Who, in State legislatures anywhere, will stand on principle over pragmatism to take the heat for doing what needs to be done from people who know where they live? Darned few. That guy in DC can take it, and no one will even knock on his door.I have just explained why he does not have that incentive. Add to that, that the display of such incentive threatens the power politics balance within his own party, and the party might not find so much support for him as a challenger next election. He isn't going to Washington, and he knows it. He won't get tapped for Governor, and he knows it. This is as high in the food chain as he is going, as much power and prestige as he is going to get. Is he going to risk that for people who will only be upset by the result (more direct taxation he will have to approve or a cut in services or both?). Nope, and I wager, considering the caliber of candidates produced and backed by State Party machines that that is the majority as things stand.
What you are describing in the unholy alliance between State and Federal officials means that the only reason states are jumping onto the COS bandwagon is to deceive the very people in the state to do the opposite of what those people wish.

Sorry, but I believe there are plenty of states that see their own power being stripped away, whether it is in education, environmental, burdensome work or hiring regulations, or just the wealth of its citizens.  Imposed healthcare is another one. Why else would 26 state AGs go up against the feds when Obamacare provided money to fund healthcare?

My own governor and legislature here in Texas is proof of that point.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline INVAR

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Since you seem so good at pointing our flaws in the Amendment process, why not go all-in and advocate stripping away all the Constitutional Amendments passed to date, since you do not believe there can any good in doing any amendments at all?

The flaws are not in the Amendment process.  As has been said repeatedly, the flaws are in a people who have abandoned our foundations and have become a body politick that WANTS Socialism having no use for limited government or a Constitution that limits one. 

But if you are whole hog certain that the States are not as corrupt and beholden to the Feds as Smoking Joe has laid out facts for you - and salvation is at hand for your Amendment efforts - knock your socks off and do your thing.  Just don't expect any support from those of us you have marginalized over our concerns. 
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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That's just silly.
How so?  Some argue that any new changes to the Constitution are ill-advisable no matter how needed as the people who will be involved in the changes are morally vacant.

A number of past Amendments were done by people who supported killing Indians wantonly and had slaves prevalent throughout the country.  Others had other moral issues.  Why should they be trusted to be in place if people are now concerned with morality?

Do we now change the standards for executing the provisions of the Constitution arbitrarily due to a new moral preference?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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The flaws are not in the Amendment process.  As has been said repeatedly, the flaws are in a people who have abandoned our foundations and have become a body politick that WANTS Socialism having no use for limited government or a Constitution that limits one. 

But if you are whole hog certain that the States are not as corrupt and beholden to the Feds as Smoking Joe has laid out facts for you - and salvation is at hand for your Amendment efforts - knock your socks off and do your thing.  Just don't expect any support from those of us you have marginalized over our concerns.
Pretty easy to knock that one down.

The Constitution is bigger than any person or group of people.

The Founders' provisions within it are sufficient to overcome any and all the frivolity you wish to spade it with.

And do not throw all of us into your preaching about Socialism is our lifeblood.  Your generalizations to condemn us all is what marginalizes you to a lot of the thread's readers.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline INVAR

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Do we now change the standards for executing the provisions of the Constitution arbitrarily due to a new moral preference?

'New moral preference"???? 

Are you calling all the quotations from the Founders that I have cited on this thread that warned that the Constitution could only exist within a moral and religious people a 'new moral preference'????

An immoral people will not support Amendments that impede a federal behemoth that they want everyone to be subservient to.

The Constitution is bigger than any person or group of people.

Adams noted that no government can contend with human passions unbridled by religion and morality, as tyranny would go through the Constitution as a whale goes through a net.
It is not as big as you think it is when you are dealing with a people who have no use for it.

The Founders' provisions within it are sufficient to overcome any and all the frivolity you wish to spade it with.

The fact any of you are advocating for new amendments because the existing Constitution and Amendments have been violated and you seek to strengthen them with more Amendments, condemns your statement.

And do not throw all of us into your preaching about Socialism is our lifeblood.  Your generalizations to condemn us all is what marginalizes you to a lot of the thread's readers.

The culture, the corruption, the federal Beast as it now exists and this society as it stands, indicts your statement wholesale.  You may not want Socialism, but you and I are in a minority in this country whether you want to believe that or not.  I think that other thread about Socialism being inside the heads of most prominent Republicans makes the point clear.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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What you are describing in the unholy alliance between State and Federal officials means that the only reason states are jumping onto the COS bandwagon is to deceive the very people in the state to do the opposite of what those people wish.
I believe, given the performance of the GOP, that that is entirely possible.
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Sorry, but I believe there are plenty of states that see their own power being stripped away, whether it is in education, environmental, burdensome work or hiring regulations, or just the wealth of its citizens.  Imposed healthcare is another one. Why else would 26 state AGs go up against the feds when Obamacare provided money to fund healthcare?
There are issues which the states would like to see resolved because those issues are causing pain at the State level. That does not mean the States want to strip the departments from the federal government which should not be there and limit all the rest all the time, it just means there are specific programs which are unpopular.

You have touched on the big ones: Healthcare, environment, OSHA and other workplace regs, and taxes.

However, take that mantle from the Feds and put it on the States, and I would wager half of those statehouses (regardless of who dominates them now) would be overturned within two election cycles because the State government would have to cut services or increase taxes or both and do all the unpopular things the Feds are doing or take the heat for not doing them. All of those chickens would come home to roost, right there in river city, and not in DC. As it is the disaster in DC is seen as a Federal Problem. Put those tarbabies in the State's hands, and they will become State screw-ups in the minds of the voters.

While there may be dissatisfaction with those programs, I do not think that is enough incentive for the State Governments to call off the symbiosis the State governments have enjoyed with the bloated Federal Government. Obviously, both political parties are benefiting by the current system, and they would be reluctant to dispense with it as well. No matter what goes wrong someone can blame someone else, while taking credit for what goes right.

The people, with relatively few exceptions, are the ones getting the shaft, but only those who are paying for this mess, be that in more expensive health care and insurance, be that in rotten alcohol laced fuel, be that in more expensive energy overall, poorer schools, whatever. The voters may be mad, but the Party keeps backing those candidates, and they still keep sending the same people to DC.
Until that changes, I have no reason to believe that there is enough change in the electorate, or those elected, nor is there necessarily motivation to return to an Originalist Federal Government. People just want their ox to not get gored.

Now, it's my turn to ask a question. What specific Constitutional Amendments do you think will bring our Federal Government back within its mandated powers and restrict it from violating the Tenth Amendment?

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The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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However, take that mantle from the Feds and put it on the States, and I would wager half of those statehouses (regardless of who dominates them now) would be overturned within two election cycles because the State government would have to cut services or increase taxes or both and do all the unpopular things the Feds are doing or take the heat for not doing them. All of those chickens would come home to roost, right there in river city, and not in DC. As it is the disaster in DC is seen as a Federal Problem.
I note your presumption is that people actually want all of those things within their state.  I believe that is inaccurate.  For example, while some do, most states do not want to be 'Sanctuary States', nor do most wish to unduly restrict gun laws, and so on.

Let those states that wish to emulate the Federal 'Welfare from cradle to grave' or make it easy for non-citizens to spend state tax dollars to attend its universities do so if they wish.  They are sovereign to do so.  Am happy for them if their citizens wishes to tax large soda cups to keep them healthy, or to restrict drilling on state lands to 'protect the environment' and starve the state kitty or to fund progressive schemes that spend tons of money like PP.  It is their right to be free to be happy their way.

The states that choose not to do so are the ones that will be cheaper to live in, have less restrictive taxes and be able to support a higher standard of living.

The beauty in our federalist system is that the citizens of a state are free to elect those they wish to control them.  Other states can act differently and elect other types.

The country comprising our 50 states is extraordinary not because they are alike so often, but because they are so different.  Their citizens want different things and will always reason differently.

I think we are stronger having that system and not a single, unified way to operate like we are evolving into.  Honestly, I really wish a couple of states like California go full-Socialist as that model will fail miserably for the rest of the states to witness and remind them of what not to do.  Strengthening California's ability to fail by giving it the energies currently expended within the federal jurisdiction will accelerate that process.  The only caveat is that California has no right to seek relief from the other states for their weaknesses self-inflicted.

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Now, it's my turn to ask a question. What specific Constitutional Amendments do you think will bring our Federal Government back within its mandated powers and restrict it from violating the Tenth Amendment?
Wish I was smart enough to answer that succinctly.  I do wish to have throttles onto the power of those that make laws that make them directly assert the portion of the Constitution that authorizes that law with a mechanism for veto power by the collective states somehow incorporated.  I know that has to be done effectively or we will come to a standstill so it must be smartly done.

I wish those same people to never possess the power to make laws that exempt themselves.

Term limits are useful if done correctly.

Removal of the 17th Amendment.

Some type of re-review of federal judges by Congress on maybe a 6 or ten year basis.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline INVAR

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I believe, given the performance of the GOP, that that is entirely possible.

I think it is a Given.  Consider that the GOP Leadership Oligarchy sent their party hacks to infiltrate and co-opt the Tea Party movement early on, to the point that it is pretty much defunct at this point.

An Article V Convention would ensure that there was absolutely no chance for any limits being put on the Statism that both parties want to helm.

I do not think that is enough incentive for the State Governments to call off the symbiosis the State governments have enjoyed with the bloated Federal Government.

Even in our supposedly red-red State - the moment any threat of federal funding being cut is mentioned, BOTH parties in this state go out of their way to make sure the gravy train continues to run - to shouts and screams from a majority of the locals who see money being brought into our state (having been robbed from the others) as the sole purpose for electing representatives to office.

It's not only the parties that benefit from the current system.  A majority of the GOP in this state are just as reluctant to dispense with any program that is currently being funded by the feds.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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I note your presumption is that people actually want all of those things within their state.  I believe that is inaccurate.  For example, while some do, most states do not want to be 'Sanctuary States', nor do most wish to unduly restrict gun laws, and so on.
"Provide for the common defense" is right there in the stated purpose of the whole Constitution, and that's what immigration law and border control are about. That is a legitimate federal obligation and power. The sanctuary states have made their decision at the state level, in spite of federal law, it was not imposed at the federal level.

Aside from A few federal infringements on the RKBA--like registering and taxing the transfer of Class III arms and "destructive devices", and requiring dealers keep paperwork and a license, most infringements are done at the State and Local levels.

I can walk into a gun shop in ND, whip out my CCW permit, fill out the 4473, pay the man, and walk out with a pistol--with full capacity magazines and as much ammo as I can afford. No muss, no fuss. Without the CCW permit, I'd just have to wait for the NICS check to clear and nothing else would change. Try that in New York, or New York City (The standard double stack magazine would be banned, just for starters.) and you can't get the same stuff, and the paperwork is a lot more of an infringement.
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Let those states that wish to emulate the Federal 'Welfare from cradle to grave' or make it easy for non-citizens to spend state tax dollars to attend its universities do so if they wish.  They are sovereign to do so.  Am happy for them if their citizens wishes to tax large soda cups to keep them healthy, or to restrict drilling on state lands to 'protect the environment' and starve the state kitty or to fund progressive schemes that spend tons of money like PP.  It is their right to be free to be happy their way.
All states get federal funding for Medicaid, highway construction/maintenance, water treatment, and a host of other full or partial grants that pave the way for the programs liked by the parasite class and businesses alike. "Federal Money" paves main street, "Federal Money" keeps the school lunch on the table, "Federal Money" helps keep the lights on all around.
My point is that that money goes to the States from the Federal Government, and to a great extent, the disbursement of that money is done by the State Legislatures. It's like being given a sack of toys to hand out a Christmas, they get to be loved as Santa, but don't get the nasty task of raising that revenue. Whether they are a 'sanctuary state' or not, they all get funding to distribute that way, all 50 legislatures, and as a result, some of them are not going to want the nasty job of raising every dime they disburse, whether those disbursements be as welfare, Medicaid, highway/infrastructure improvement contracts, grants, whatever.

Right now, every State gets funds from the Feds. Arguably, that isn't the job of the Federal Government, but also arguably, I don't see State Legislatures standing in line at the complaint window unless it is to gripe about not getting enough. Getting the States to line up against that "painless" (for the state legislature) revenue stream is going to be a difficult task.
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The states that choose not to do so are the ones that will be cheaper to live in, have less restrictive taxes and be able to support a higher standard of living.

The beauty in our federalist system is that the citizens of a state are free to elect those they wish to control them.  Other states can act differently and elect other types.

The country comprising our 50 states is extraordinary not because they are alike so often, but because they are so different.  Their citizens want different things and will always reason differently.
Whoa, here, It is as if you think I am arguing against states rights and the limitation of Federal Power. You got that wrong. The States were sovereign entities with a loose Federal Government for the purpose of standardizing weights, measures, and internal coinage for trade, keeping the post roads open, and for settling disputes as final arbiter in disputes between the states. It established a minimum standard of Rights to be legislatively undisputed, and provided for the common defense with a small standing army, a navy to protect international trade and our coastal waters, and the power to limit immigration into the States and territories (and possessions) who were within its Constitutional Authorization to do so.

Since the matter of "States' Rights" was 'settled' in 1865, and the National Government imposed, we have been growing (farther) away from the foundational concepts of These United States into a Federally dominated National Government which, with the 17th Amendment rendered the State Governments largely moot. With the power to select the Senate gone from the State Governments, the only power the States had left at the Federal Level, aside from whoever was elected by the people, was the power to endorse specific candidates for those Federal positions, held not by anyone elected per se, but by the political Party chiefs in the State political Parties.
It is they who are the kingmakers, who select the candidates who will do their bidding, who groom the local district and state office holders (and candidates) for the big league games on Capitol Hill. Those political Party chiefs are chosen by delegates from the district level. Until the delegates sent by those districts demand people who will comply with the constitution as candidates, demand that their State Parties comply as well, it won't happen.
The State political organizations, for the most part, seem perfectly happy with the arrangement.
The rot goes to the core, the blemishes on the outside are just a symptom of far deeper ills.
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I think we are stronger having that system and not a single, unified way to operate like we are evolving into.
Within the Constitutionally Authorized duties of the Federal Government and the several States,  I agree. Everyone in that has been coloring outside the lines for so long, it is as if no one knows where the lines are.

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Honestly, I really wish a couple of states like California go full-Socialist as that model will fail miserably for the rest of the states to witness and remind them of what not to do.  Strengthening California's ability to fail by giving it the energies currently expended within the federal jurisdiction will accelerate that process.  The only caveat is that California has no right to seek relief from the other states for their weaknesses self-inflicted.
As originally set up, and as long as California did not break legitimate Federal law, they would have been able to fail on their own. With the amount of Federal control at present (and funding), it is as if the rest of us are obligated to pick up the pieces and pay for the fiscal mess created by their acts of rebellion and mismanagement.
 
Californians, at least those who stay, should have to pick up that tab.

While I know there are many good, conservative, Californians who would have the pain of their not-so-smart fellows imposed upon them despite their opposition to the policies which will inevitably bring that, the pain of not having Federal bailout money injected into the system would precipitate that failure sooner, while the mess was not so extensive, the overall and long-term grief would be much less.
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Wish I was smart enough to answer that succinctly.
You didn't do badly at all.
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I do wish to have throttles onto the power of those that make laws that make them directly assert the portion of the Constitution that authorizes that law with a mechanism for veto power by the collective states somehow incorporated.  I know that has to be done effectively or we will come to a standstill so it must be smartly done.
How about:
 Every Bill brought before Congress not removing a program, law, or regulation not Constitutionally authorized shall have any new program, law, revenue source, regulation, or any matter created accompanied by a cite giving the Constitutional Authorization for that action being within Federal purview or something like that.
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I wish those same people to never possess the power to make laws that exempt themselves.
That concept goes back to The Magna Carta, that no one is exempt from the law, not even the King. That Congress chose who did not have to comply, independent of Rights enumerated in the Constitution, was just wrong.
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Term limits are useful if done correctly.
Agreed.
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Removal of the 17th Amendment.
Yes!! Key to restoring the power to the States, it would give the States a say in Congress, directly, veto power over the schemes of the House, which would balance interests of the people by retaining the power to kill Senate initiatives. What was originally intended and necessary to balancing power.
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Some type of re-review of federal judges by Congress on maybe a 6 or ten year basis.
[/quote]I'm all for that, although I believe the executive branch (POTUS) has the authority to call for the resignation of any and all of them if appointed (except SCOTUS). Keep in mind, though, that the balance of power in Congress changes, and that review is a two edged sword.
I would like to see the decisions of such courts limited to the application of law to the facts, and an end to the invention or insertion of words, phrases, laws, or rights from the bench.  I'm not sure if a review process would guarantee that, but an Amendment might provide means for impeachment if that was violated.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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"Provide for the common defense" is right there in the stated purpose of the whole Constitution, and that's what immigration law and border control are about. That is a legitimate federal obligation and power. The sanctuary states have made their decision at the state level, in spite of federal law, it was not imposed at the federal level.

Aside from A few federal infringements on the RKBA--like registering and taxing the transfer of Class III arms and "destructive devices", and requiring dealers keep paperwork and a license, most infringements are done at the State and Local levels.

I can walk into a gun shop in ND, whip out my CCW permit, fill out the 4473, pay the man, and walk out with a pistol--with full capacity magazines and as much ammo as I can afford. No muss, no fuss. Without the CCW permit, I'd just have to wait for the NICS check to clear and nothing else would change. Try that in New York, or New York City (The standard double stack magazine would be banned, just for starters.) and you can't get the same stuff, and the paperwork is a lot more of an infringement.
We agree that all states may not act the same nor will they act like the federal govt.

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All states get federal funding for Medicaid, highway construction/maintenance, water treatment, and a host of other full or partial grants that pave the way for the programs liked by the parasite class and businesses alike. "Federal Money" paves main street, "Federal Money" keeps the school lunch on the table, "Federal Money" helps keep the lights on all around.
My point is that that money goes to the States from the Federal Government, and to a great extent, the disbursement of that money is done by the State Legislatures. It's like being given a sack of toys to hand out a Christmas, they get to be loved as Santa, but don't get the nasty task of raising that revenue. Whether they are a 'sanctuary state' or not, they all get funding to distribute that way, all 50 legislatures, and as a result, some of them are not going to want the nasty job of raising every dime they disburse, whether those disbursements be as welfare, Medicaid, highway/infrastructure improvement contracts, grants, whatever.

Right now, every State gets funds from the Feds. Arguably, that isn't the job of the Federal Government, but also arguably, I don't see State Legislatures standing in line at the complaint window unless it is to gripe about not getting enough. Getting the States to line up against that "painless" (for the state legislature) revenue stream is going to be a difficult task.
I recognize every state gets money; however, some states have already made up their minds on some matters that they will be willing to forego some federal money based upon principle alone.  Texas gave up billions in turning down Medicaid expansion.  California seems willing to give up money to become a Sanctuary State.
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  Whoa, here, It is as if you think I am arguing against states rights and the limitation of Federal Power. You got that wrong. The States were sovereign entities with a loose Federal Government for the purpose of standardizing weights, measures, and internal coinage for trade, keeping the post roads open, and for settling disputes as final arbiter in disputes between the states. It established a minimum standard of Rights to be legislatively undisputed, and provided for the common defense with a small standing army, a navy to protect international trade and our coastal waters, and the power to limit immigration into the States and territories (and possessions) who were within its Constitutional Authorization to do so.

Since the matter of "States' Rights" was 'settled' in 1865, and the National Government imposed, we have been growing (farther) away from the foundational concepts of These United States into a Federally dominated National Government which, with the 17th Amendment rendered the State Governments largely moot. With the power to select the Senate gone from the State Governments, the only power the States had left at the Federal Level, aside from whoever was elected by the people, was the power to endorse specific candidates for those Federal positions, held not by anyone elected per se, but by the political Party chiefs in the State political Parties.
It is they who are the kingmakers, who select the candidates who will do their bidding, who groom the local district and state office holders (and candidates) for the big league games on Capitol Hill. Those political Party chiefs are chosen by delegates from the district level. Until the delegates sent by those districts demand people who will comply with the constitution as candidates, demand that their State Parties comply as well, it won't happen.
The State political organizations, for the most part, seem perfectly happy with the arrangement.
The rot goes to the core, the blemishes on the outside are just a symptom of far deeper ills.
If we have a genuine expression by the States of throwing off the federal yoke, then I think we differ here.  If we do not, then we continue to have this problem.
 
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Within the Constitutionally Authorized duties of the Federal Government and the several States,  I agree. Everyone in that has been coloring outside the lines for so long, it is as if no one knows where the lines are.
Agree.
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As originally set up, and as long as California did not break legitimate Federal law, they would have been able to fail on their own. With the amount of Federal control at present (and funding), it is as if the rest of us are obligated to pick up the pieces and pay for the fiscal mess created by their acts of rebellion and mismanagement.
 
Californians, at least those who stay, should have to pick up that tab.

While I know there are many good, conservative, Californians who would have the pain of their not-so-smart fellows imposed upon them despite their opposition to the policies which will inevitably bring that, the pain of not having Federal bailout money injected into the system would precipitate that failure sooner, while the mess was not so extensive, the overall and long-term grief would be much less.
Agree

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  You didn't do badly at all.  How about:
 Every Bill brought before Congress not removing a program, law, or regulation not Constitutionally authorized shall have any new program, law, revenue source, regulation, or any matter created accompanied by a cite giving the Constitutional Authorization for that action being within Federal purview or something like that.
I like those lines you drew.  The two actions I wish to cement are:
1. the new law must be positively proven to be within Constitutional grounds.  I threw the states' veto power in there to strengthen the principles of the 10th Amendment here.
2. We do not grow the federal government but take out laws or programs for every new one created.  That is where your idea comes in handily
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 09:51:34 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline bigheadfred

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1. the new law must be positively proven to be within Constitutional grounds.

What is the SCOTUS' role here? They review it before it can be voted on by Congress?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 12:38:09 am by bigheadfred »
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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What is the SCOTUS' role here? They review it before it can be voted on by Congress?
They bat cleanup. Seriously, if the Congress people can swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constituton, they should know it well enough to cite where the authority for the matter in the Bill comes from.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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They bat cleanup. Seriously, if the Congress people can swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constituton, they should know it well enough to cite where the authority for the matter in the Bill comes from.

They should. But that is asking a lot.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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They should. But that is asking a lot.
Maybe, but they wanted the job. If they can't do it, I'm sure we could find replacements.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LateForLunch

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Point of information concerning California federal tax revenue. California sends more tax revenue to DC every year than it gets back in benefits/aid - by a large amount.  That is one of the points the secessionists are using to advocate for their cause.

The puzzling thing is that so many Californians don't really get that the huge costs of illegal immigration (a deficit of roughly $50 K for every one of them over the course of their life-long presence in the USA) comes out of their own STATE budgets, not out of the federal budget.

I think a recent Rand Corp study found that the annual cost to the state of California every year to dole out benefits and cash to illegal immigrants in the state, either directly or indirectly (not including free education) was about $30 billion (or about $50 K more per person than they contribute into tax revenue over their lifetimes).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 03:48:02 am by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline Smokin Joe

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Yep, California is a net tax payer at the Federal Level. As for the illegals, just think of the things California could do with that money to pay off debts and take care of currently unfunded State Liabilities. But from the outside, people see a state rich in resources it won't use, rules which stifle business, and taxes that bleed the individual dry.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 04:46:14 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Doug Loss

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Missouri just passed the resolution.  12 states, now.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline bigheadfred

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Maybe, but they wanted the job. If they can't do it, I'm sure we could find replacements.

You might find replacements that know the Constitution, but getting those replacements to follow it, at the federal level, is another.

The reason I support a Convention isn't to amend the Constitution. It is to see if there are enough people left in this country to form that kind of consensus. But I think we are too far down the road to tribalism to do it.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Point of information concerning California federal tax revenue. California sends more tax revenue to DC every year than it gets back in benefits/aid - by a large amount.  That is one of the points the secessionists are using to advocate for their cause.
Another comprehensive source has a different take and estimates California gets back 99 cents on each dollar.

http://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3531/2
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Sanguine

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Missouri just passed the resolution.  12 states, now.

That's great, Doug!