Author Topic: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'  (Read 14466 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Free Vulcan

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,798
  • Gender: Male
  • Ah, the air is so much fresher here...
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2017, 08:02:16 pm »
However, Lincoln died and the reconstruction efforts made the South pay for many, many years and created bitterness that endures to this day.

Very true. I know from visiting my Alabama relatives as a kid, that the South really didn't get away from the effect of reconstruction till the '80's, as in 1980's when factories started moving and building in the non-union South. Until then it was in many places very depressed.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2017, 08:03:09 pm »
Your talking about bitterness?

I'd be bitter if I were tied up to trees and hung.

I'm sure you would be, Tom, however you missed the point.

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2017, 08:03:34 pm »
South Carolina threatened to secede under Andrew Jackson; so, Jackson had to deal with a similar situation to secession which played a part in the Civil War.  Jackson threatened to invade SC. I thought everyone knew about the "Nullification crisis".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_Crisis

Yeah, states' rights were being trampled even before the 1860s.

And Trump must know about it, the way he loves tariffs.

+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #78 on: May 01, 2017, 08:04:32 pm »
Damn yankees are always going to believe it was all about slavery and nothing else. 

Even if correspondence, Minutes, Diary writings and speeches declare it otherwise.

Preach it.

Mississippi article on secession and similar language is found for other states so "otherwise" this:
Quote
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

Is traditional marriage the only Christian value you defend? You talk down Trump who has already done a lot for the pro-life cause and here, since the CSA made it clear they were fighting for slavery, one is basically defending that wrong. Then, you speak ill of others. Pretty pathetic.

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2017, 08:06:56 pm »
Yeah, states' rights were being trampled even before the 1860s.

And Trump must know about it, the way he loves tariffs.

The South would have been outpopulated by the slaves in due time, 1860 was not that long ago and especially not that long ago to when most of us were born. 1712 already had a Slave rebellion. It might have gotten pretty bad.

The Federal Government has some rights too; I think that does include bringing the states into line or they shouldn't have joined the union in the first place.

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #80 on: May 01, 2017, 08:08:45 pm »
Without slavery there would have been no Civil War -- there'd have been no motive for it.

The Civil War ended in 1865; historically, a lot of us were born not all that long after the civil war; within a hundred years. The practice most likely would have been brought to an end some time back then. It's hard to imagine the US having had slavery say in 1900, 1910 and so on.

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2017, 08:13:15 pm »


Stats of course, exist for all states.

Offline kevindavis007

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,444
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2017, 08:21:42 pm »
The South would have been outpopulated by the slaves in due time, 1860 was not that long ago and especially not that long ago to when most of us were born. 1712 already had a Slave rebellion. It might have gotten pretty bad.

The Federal Government has some rights too; I think that does include bringing the states into line or they shouldn't have joined the union in the first place.


Last time I checked, there is no escape clause in the Constitution (like there is in the EU Constitution).
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Offline Cripplecreek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,718
  • Gender: Male
  • Constitutional Extremist
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2017, 08:21:59 pm »
However, Lincoln died and the reconstruction efforts made the South pay for many, many years and created bitterness that endures to this day.

Lincoln's death only empowered those who sought to punish the south.

Hot headed tempers started it and hot headed tempers ended it but not till hundreds of thousands died.

Cooler heads like Sam Houston warned that breaking the union was a bad idea and if they fought a war over it they would lose. Despite being a great hero to many Americans especially in the south and particularly in Texas, they still threw him out of office for speaking truths they didn't want to hear. In fact he blamed extremists in both the north and the south.

"Whatever is calculated to weaken or impair the strength of [the] Union,—whether originating at the North or the South,—whether arising from the incendiary violence of abolitionists, or from the coalition of nullifiers, will never meet with my unqualified approval."

His dislike of slavery was never a secret. He voted for the Oregon Bill of 1848 which established the territorial government but included a prohibition of slavery in the territory. He supported the 1850 compromise that wasn't particularly loved by anybody. He also opposed the Kansas Nebraska act predicting that it would lead to war. " ... what fields of blood, what scenes of horror, what mighty cities in smoke and ruins—it is brother murdering brother ... I see my beloved South go down in the unequal contest, in a sea of blood and smoking ruin."

The final straw was his refusal to join the confederacy.

Fellow-Citizens, in the name of your rights and liberties, which I believe have been trampled upon, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the nationality of Texas, which has been betrayed by the Convention, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the Constitution of Texas, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of my own conscience and manhood, which this Convention would degrade by dragging me before it, to pander to the malice of my enemies, I refuse to take this oath. I deny the power of this Convention to speak for Texas....I protest....against all the acts and doings of this convention and I declare them null and void.

A few weeks after being removed from office he spoke to an angry crowd from a hotel window.

Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.

I doubt Houston took any joy in being proven right. After all the war he warned was coming cost him his son.

In my opinion Sam Houston is one of the finest men America has ever produced. Its sad that his most heroic acts are the ones no one wants to speak of.






Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2017, 08:25:33 pm »
That would be fine, except that the southern states began seceding over the issue of slavery, months before Lincoln ever took office.

They seceded over taxation and imposition of federal power over sovereign state rights intended to limit and punish their economies.  Slavery was just the fulcrum used to leverage their impositions.  The election of 1860 only added to the momentum to secede from the Union over the fact Lincoln was not even on the ballot in Southern states that had not yet left the Union.  They claimed they had no representation and therefore had no duty to acquiesce to taxation.  Lincoln addressed that issue in the quote I provided above.  He declared war over the fact that they couldn't collect the tax revenue being imposed.

Sadly we are still fighting the root cause of that war; centralized power, punitive taxation and imposition of mandates upon the culture and ideas alien to sovereign states.

Nothing new under the sun.

Instead of slavery as a fulcrum issue of Federal imposition - now it's 'social justice'/'Racism'/'White Privilege'/'Rich don't pay their fair share'/Gay Marriage/Transgender rights etc., etc.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline kevindavis007

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,444
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2017, 08:26:53 pm »
Here is James Madison (one of our founders), said about secession..


https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/james-madison-on-secession/
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Offline LateForLunch

  • GOTWALMA Get Out of the Way and Leave Me Alone! (Nods to Teebone)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,349
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2017, 08:30:52 pm »


Stats of course, exist for all states.

 Where on Earth would one obtain such an accounting?

My own sources have stated that lynchings were often payback for incursion crimes by blacks who crossed borders from black enclaves into mostly white communities to raid, murder and rape. They would then retreat back into black communities to disappear. Since most such lynching actions were likely extra-legal ( done outside the law) I doubt that any accurate records existed. What would their motivation be to preserve records!?!

I have also heard that lynching of black slaves was about as rare as lightening strikes. Since slaves had great value, it was not a small thing to destroy one by killing them. Their owners would protest strongly.

Where did you obtain these figures that you are quoting, sieur? I'm not questioning your veracity, but I'm astonished that anyone believes such a record could be accurate going back to things that happened 150 years ago.   
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 08:33:47 pm by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2017, 08:41:42 pm »
Here is James Madison (one of our founders), said about secession..


https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/james-madison-on-secession/

Though I believe he claimed the state “owes fidelity to it, till released by consent, or absolved by an intolerable abuse of the power created.”
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2017, 08:44:55 pm »
The practice most likely would have been brought to an end some time back then. It's hard to imagine the US having had slavery say in 1900, 1910 and so on.

I see no reason for believing that. 

Of course, to get to 1900, we must ignore the fact that the Civil War was inevitable just due to geography -- as a matter of agricultural necessity, slavery had to move north of the Mason-Dixon line in order to move westward, and the North was largely and increasingly opposed to slavery for a variety of reasons.  "Bloody Kansas," or something very like it, would have happened regardless.

But suppose that the sectional crises had somehow been resolved so that slavery was still around 40 years later:

It is no accident that the advent Industrial Revolution brought with it the Labor Movement, which arose in part to combat real exploitation of factory workers, in the form of low wages, dangerous working conditions, etc.  Many industrialists were notably exploitative of their workers.  Things like sweat shops, company towns ("I owe my soul to the company store)", share-cropping (coupled, for blacks with Jim Crow laws), Chinese railway labor, and so on -- these were in many respects little different from slavery, even after the war.

In that context, consider if slavery were still prevalent in, say, 1880 or 1900.  The value of a slave in the Industrial Revolution would most likely have increased in much the same way that the value of slaves increased after the introduction of the cotton gin.  Slaves would have represented cheap labor performed by people who had no right to leave, and who had no recourse if they were to complain about working conditions.

It could even be suggested that had the South been more receptive to the Industrial Revolution, and not so devoted to agrarianism and the plantation system, they might possibly have won their independence by having created a slave-powered industrial base -- the lack of which, in the actual event, probably cost them the war.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 08:49:36 pm by r9etb »

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2017, 08:48:18 pm »
They seceded over taxation and imposition of federal power over sovereign state rights intended to limit and punish their economies.

Oh, pooh.

They said themselves it was about slavery.  No amount of excuse-making will change that fact.

Offline mirraflake

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,199
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2017, 08:48:21 pm »
Where on Earth would one obtain such an accounting?

My own sources have stated that lynchings were often payback for incursion crimes by blacks who crossed borders from black enclaves into mostly white communities to raid, murder and rape. They would then retreat back into black communities to disappear. Since most such lynching actions were likely extra-legal ( done outside the law) I doubt that any accurate records existed. What would their motivation be to preserve records!?!

I have also heard that lynching of black slaves was about as rare as lightening strikes. Since slaves had great value, it was not a small thing to destroy one by killing them. Their owners would protest strongly.

Where did you obtain these figures that you are quoting, sieur? I'm not questioning your veracity, but I'm astonished that anyone believes such a record could be accurate going back to things that happened 150 years ago.

Lol..read the dates  1870 to 1950.. They were not slaves then.

@LateForLunch

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2017, 09:07:12 pm »
Oh, pooh.

They said themselves it was about slavery.  No amount of excuse-making will change that fact.

The question Trump asked was 'Why was there a Civil War'?

Slavery is always the stock and simplified answer since the victor writes the history.  However, if Lincoln had not raised an army to invade the South for the express purpose of forcing them back into the Union, there may have been NO war at all.  The South would have gone it's own way - and the North it's own.  Now, as then, the big donors of the Deep State do not tolerate competition or defiance of their will and they use the Federal Beast to impose their will by force and threat of a gun to someone's head to comply.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2017, 09:07:26 pm »

The Rebels fired the first shot..


After Lincoln sent a flotilla of Warships off the coast of Charleston to threaten them. 


The British fired the first shot at the Spanish Armada,   so were the British the aggressors?  Or was it the Spanish who sent the Ships of war?   

« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 09:07:56 pm by DiogenesLamp »
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2017, 09:07:50 pm »
No one considers, say the Italian soldiers who fought under Mussolini as bad guys for the most part, Japan and Germany did great evils; but often some of their soldiers who fought and/or died might not be seen as evil. So, this doesn't apply to how the South is viewed.

Still, we've heard enough about the old South, in the North, I've seen statues dedicated to those who volunteered for example, they really did for a noble cause.

There were a lot of abolitionists in the US; heck, Kansas and Missouri were already going at it over the cross-stateline raids, John Brown and all of that. There was already a mini-war going on.



They volunteered for a rather noble cause though in the end, both sides had horrible prison camps and I'm sure did bad things. There were no bad sides and in some cases, I guess it was brother against brother, cousin against cousin.

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2017, 09:11:43 pm »
The question Trump asked was 'Why was there a Civil War'?

Slavery is always the stock and simplified answer since the victor writes the history.  However, if Lincoln had not raised an army to invade the South for the express purpose of forcing them back into the Union, there may have been NO war at all. 

Of course there would have been a war.  As stated above, the South needed to expand slavery into the territories north of the Mason-Dixon line -- "Bloody Kansas" demonstrates the lengths to which both the pro- and anti-slavery sides of the issue were willing to go to get their way.  The fact of an unopposed secession would not have altered the dynamic; in fact, it would most likely have resulted in a sort of armed imperialism between the (now) two separate countries.

So there most certainly would have been a war, regardless.

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2017, 09:13:03 pm »
Damn yankees are always going to believe it was all about slavery and nothing else. 



No other justification makes the murder of 750,000 people seem acceptable.   They don't dare think it was over something as trivial as money and power.   If it's not about something transcending the mortal,  they have all that horrible blood on their hands. 





It has to be about slavery,  because else they have no good explanation for all the dead people they created. 

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2017, 09:15:51 pm »
It has to be about slavery,  because else they have no good explanation for all the dead people they created.

Or, to put your case more honestly, it can't be about slavery, because that would make the Southern cause a whole lot less honorable.


Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2017, 09:19:44 pm »
It would have happened regardless of who was president. 


We do not know that.   It's just that with the election of a race-obsessed Liberal Lawyer from Illinois who planned to executive order them to death with his pen and telegraph,  they wanted out.   


Had Breckenridge or Bell won,  probably nothing would have happened.   



The issue of slavery was intractable, and all of the deals and compromises in the decades prior to the Civil War merely delayed it until the development of more modern technology made it that much bloodier.


Well it was tractable for the first four score and seven years of the nation's existence.   Lincoln repeatedly said he  would do nothing to affect it,  so if they had simply believed him instead of doubting him,  it would probably have been tractable for many decades longer.   


But Lincoln didn't invade the South to end slavery.   Lincoln invaded the South to stop independence,  and most especially to prevent all that Southern earned income from escaping his treasury. 


(The South paid for 3/4ths the cost of operating the Federal Government.) 
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2017, 09:22:16 pm »
Without slavery there would have been no Civil War -- there'd have been no motive for it.


Well this is sorta true.   If the South was worthless land from which no money was being put into the treasury,  they would have kissed it goodbye and said "good riddance."   However,  it was the  source from which most of the trade wealth came,  and it was just too important economically to let it go. 


Because of slaves,  the South was producing a lot of money for the Union,  and they weren't going to let it go without a fight.   

Slavery was an indirect cause of the war.   Money and power was the direct cause. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2017, 09:22:35 pm »

So there most certainly would have been a war, regardless.

Possibly.  The fact of history is that Statists and Central Power in league with business and money are always going to force themselves upon those they intend to eliminate as competition while robbing them to fund themselves and hand themselves control over the lives of those they intend to rule.

The North just did it first in the 1860s, and Washington D.C. does it right now while we sit here and type.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775