Author Topic: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'  (Read 14680 times)

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Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2017, 10:59:25 pm »
I love the South.  I was born and raised here.  If someone disparages my beautiful region or the people who live here, I will get right in his/her face.

But I'm not going to tell myself that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery.   Come on.  Slaveholding was wrong, and we were going to lose because of that alone.

At the same time, Yankees might want to think twice about climbing on their moral high horses for a few reasons:

Northern slave ships continued to traffic in the trade well after slavery was outlawed in the North.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North until the end of the war.

And then there was the horrible treatment freed slaves received upon arriving in the North.

So, yes, I readily admit the South had problems.  But so did the North, which is why I don't have much patience for high moral outrage on its part.

That's interesting about the horrible treatment freed slaves received in the North.  According to television, the North was the promised land for slaves.  There is a show on right now about the Underground Railroad ... I haven't watched it but I could guess the premise.

And I totally agree with you.  There were no heroes ...except for my Grandfather and Robert E. Lee.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2017, 11:02:23 pm »

He won via the electoral college.. The Right side won get over it.


Offline musiclady

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2017, 11:03:07 pm »

Well you have me at a disadvantage.   I haven't spoken to any Confederate soldiers with a contrary opinon.   :)

Well, maybe you didn't realize it, but a lot of Confederate (and Union) soldiers actually wrote down what was said.  The soldiers who fired the cannons knew they were starting the war.


Quote

I don't think anyone spoke of purity.   I think we pointed out that one side invaded the other side's land with an army,  and the invaded side fought  back. 

You don't need to use the word "purity" when you put the entire blame on one side and ignore the blame of the other.  I don't know a single northerner as biased about the truth as you are.  The blame was on BOTH sides, whether you admit it or not.


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Generally the people invading other people's land are considered the bad guys. 
 

Unless they consider it their land because it was before the secession.  Again, so one sided here that it's bordering on absurdity.




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I don't think I was calling Union Soldiers murderers directly.   It was more along the lines of the people who were ordering them to invade the South that were the murderers.   The grunts were going to have to do what their superiors ordered,   so the responsibility for the war starts at the Top. 

Actually, you did accuse the Union of committing murder.  Another exercise in absurdity. 

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The Southerners were initially told the Union troops would evacuate Fort Sumter.   Lincoln's cabinet was advising him to do just that,   and it was so certain that this is what he would do that they actually printed this in the March 11, 1861 issue of the "National Republican"  newspaper,  which was basically the Mouthpiece for Lincoln at the time. 


Nonetheless, the Union troops were in what shortly before was America.  The southern troops fired cannons on them.

The "aggression" was on both sides.

End of my part of the discussion because you lack objectivity at any level.  I've said it before, but my ancestors were in Sweden at the time of the war, but they moved to the north at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries, and I'm glad that there was only one country and not two where America once stood.

IOW, I'm glad you lost, because I've got kin in Tennessee, and I wouldn't want to have to have a passport to visit them.   :patriot:
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2017, 11:04:16 pm »
Without works, our faith is dead. Hence, I voted for Trump; I'm not all hung up on same-sex marriage and then, ignore this other.

Everything with you is about Trump the savior, Trump the redeemer, or voting for Trump as the proof of works earning salvation and dissing Trump as proof of being antichrist.

Look bub, we're discussing the actual cause of the civil war - NOT the morality of the institution of slavery.   No one on this board thinks slavery was a good or grand thing.  Why the North went to war on the South was not over slavery.  It was to force them back into the Union to comply with taxation.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2017, 11:07:57 pm »
Funny............... just went to Charleston and out to Ft. Sumter, and the Confederate soldiers who fired clearly understood that they were starting the war.......



Incidentally........ I don't know a single person in the North who believes that the War was solely the fault of the South, or of slavery, nor that the Confederate troops were guilty of murdering all the Union soldiers who died in the conflict.

The idea that it was one sided and that the Northern soldiers were villains and murderers and the rebels pure as the driven snow is beyond absurdity.

There were faults on both sides.  But at the end, slavery was gone, and we were one country again....

It was "the United States is"  instead of "the United States are"............. and to me that was a good thing.

You can hate us Yankees for the rest of your days, but your calling the Union soldiers murderers is dirty and low down.

And not the truth.

If Trump was trying to distract people by bringing this up, he's succeeded.

I have more affinity for the South because so many ancestors fought for the South including my Grandfather, Tandy Walker Davis.

But none of the soldiers should be blamed.  I also have a Great Grandfather who fought for the North, by the way.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2017, 11:22:04 pm »

And if you are wondering why Northern States were willing to tolerate slavery in Southern States,  but absolutely didn't want it in the territories,  it can be explained as a simple matter of power.   Slave states would vote as a coalition to protect their mutual interests,  and the current laws in the United States were favoring the Northern Coalition. 
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It is the Union's reasons for invading that matter in this debate,  and their reasons for invading certainly didn't include the intent to abolish slavery.

Oh, please.

The Southern states seceded precisely because they knew that the abolition of slavery was coming, sooner rather than later. 

And Trump's ridiculous paean notwithstanding, Andy Jackson couldn't have done anything to stop it.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2017, 11:22:18 pm »

FWIW, I had ancestors who have fought for the CSA.. I'm still glad that the Union side won.

Well sure.  It's a fair bet that if history is altered even slightly that far back,  you and I likely wouldn't be here. 


The "Butterfly effect",  you know. 

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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2017, 11:30:12 pm »
You don't need to use the word "purity" when you put the entire blame on one side and ignore the blame of the other.  I don't know a single northerner as biased about the truth as you are.  The blame was on BOTH sides, whether you admit it or not.

The fact that nobody ever wants to acknowledge the opposition to the confederacy in the south says a lot. We all know that there was opposition to the war in the north and that Lincoln took some actions that were probably outside his constitutional authority. On the other side we're supposed to buy a fantasy that support for the confederacy was 100% unanimous which is an utter falsehood.

Sam Houston is a good example of how southern opposition to the Confederacy is handled. It doesn't exist. My newest neighbor is a retired history professor from Texas and he is the one who really impressed upon me what a truly heroic man Sam Houston really was. He says its criminal the way the history of Sam Houston has been "circumcised".

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2017, 11:52:49 pm »
The fact that nobody ever wants to acknowledge the opposition to the confederacy in the south says a lot. We all know that there was opposition to the war in the north and that Lincoln took some actions that were probably outside his constitutional authority. On the other side we're supposed to buy a fantasy that support for the confederacy was 100% unanimous which is an utter falsehood.

Sam Houston is a good example of how southern opposition to the Confederacy is handled. It doesn't exist. My newest neighbor is a retired history professor from Texas and he is the one who really impressed upon me what a truly heroic man Sam Houston really was. He says its criminal the way the history of Sam Houston has been "circumcised".

There was not complete support on both sides. Some Iowa regiments fought for the South, whereas some Missouri for the North. In families it was even brother against brother as the famous saying goes.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2017, 11:57:19 pm »
The fact that nobody ever wants to acknowledge the opposition to the confederacy in the south says a lot. We all know that there was opposition to the war in the north and that Lincoln took some actions that were probably outside his constitutional authority. On the other side we're supposed to buy a fantasy that support for the confederacy was 100% unanimous which is an utter falsehood.

Sam Houston is a good example of how southern opposition to the Confederacy is handled. It doesn't exist. My newest neighbor is a retired history professor from Texas and he is the one who really impressed upon me what a truly heroic man Sam Houston really was. He says its criminal the way the history of Sam Houston has been "circumcised".

We were taught about Sam Houston and his opposition to the war in grade school.  One of the reasons I hold Houston in particularly high regard.   Not sure what the prof thinks he's talking about. 

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #135 on: May 02, 2017, 12:03:08 am »
That explanation completely ignores the succession of Sectional Crises that precipitated the Civil War, all of which were rooted in the question of expanding slavery into new territories -- a subject about which both sides were demonstrably willing to fight. 


Because that would decide which coalition in congress each state would join.   The Slave states felt that only other slave states would vote with them in Congress,  and the Northern states felt the same way.  The real issue was the power of representation,  and each side wanted it because it would control federal policy on tariffs,  protectionism,  and other economic issues. 





The sectional issues would not have been resolved, even if Lincoln had permitted the secession to continue.  For example, the Missouri Compromise of 1820 limited the expansion of slavery to territories below the Mason-Dixon Line.  That was fine, to a point -- but eventually the Slave Territories below the M-D Line ran out of arable land.  Clearly that was unsustainable from the perspective of the slave states: to expand their plantation system, they had to expand north of the Mason-Dixon Line. 

And you think they were going to grow cotton North of the Mason Dixon line?   






Meanwhile, north of the Line, the Free states were expanding westward into an agricultural gold-mine, and they weren't going to give that over to slave-holders. 


What,  wheat?  Barley?  Oats?   Molasses?    None of that makes economic sense with slaves. 



And you also, of course, leave out the fact of slavery in and of itself.  To defend the South on the terms the South itself defined, you're in the position of having to defend the continuation of slavery.  There are no two ways about it. 


I am not defending the South and their slavery,  I am defending the United States and it's founding principle of Independence.   Just as with freedom of speech,  we must support people's rights to speak ideas of which we disagree,   so too with people's right to independence and for reasons with which we may not agree.   

The point is they had a right to Independence,  as Declared in our own Founding Document "four score and seven years " earlier,  and the fact that they were doing so for whatever reason does not take away from them the right to leave if they so chose. 



From the perspective of the North, the abolition of slavery is easily justified as a matter of the same basic human rights that were laid out in the Declaration of Independence, and in the writings of the Founders themselves.  It's an easy case to make, because it is a moral case.


Nonsense.  The Founders had absolutely no intention of  granting slaves their freedom when they wrote the Declaration of Independence.   Not even Jefferson believed that,  though he strongly flirted with the idea.    We can all laud the principle of "all men are created equal",   but it is dishonest to think the founders accepted it in the same manner as you are asserting.   

In fact,  throughout the whole ordeal,  the welfare of the slaves was not of primary concern to anybody,  and certainly if the South had stopped fighting early enough,  the Slaves would have remained in bondage.   So let us not fool ourselves as to why the North was fighting.   It had little to do with the slaves,  and a whole lot to do with controlling their masters. 





As for the South, you're left trying to make economic excuses for the continuation of slavery, with the inevitable conclusion that, "oh, eventually they'd have stopped enslaving people because of technology," or some such. 


It happened everywhere else in the world except here.   Why would we think that if it were left alone it would not have been abolished here too? 

And no,  i'm not trying to make economic excuses for the continuation of slavery,   I am trying to point out that it was for the control of the money which the slaves were producing that caused the North to invade the South.    The North told them repeatedly that they could keep slavery,   but the one thing they could not have was financial independence from Washington Trade and Tax policy.   

 



And as for the Southern economy itself -- they made no bones about the fact that, to them, slavery and the economy were inextricably bound together.


And that I do not dispute.  Slavery was the economic engine of the South,  and for four score and seven years it was legal in the Union.    It was an ugly practice,   but it was a legal and profitable one,  and therein lies the cause of the war.   Money.   


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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2017, 12:09:04 am »

One of our Founding fathers said otherwise:
https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/james-madison-on-secession/


I don't think he signed the Declaration of Independence.  Certainly the US Constitution was his crowning glory,  and it's no great strain to see why he would be very much opposed to dissolving the Union it represented.   


But the Declaration is the foundational premise upon which this nation exists.   If it's authority be invalid,  than so too are the daughter documents like the Articles of Confederation or the US Constitution.   

They derive their authority from the right to independence articulated in the Declaration.   


If the foundational Authority of the Declaration is correct,   it was also correct when the Southerners used it. 

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2017, 12:12:26 am »



Same states that are keeping Liberals in power today.   
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Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2017, 12:15:09 am »

FWIW, I had ancestors who have fought for the CSA.. I'm still glad that the Union side won.

Same here,  11th North Carolina to be exact. I thank God the Union was restored.
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2017, 12:15:21 am »


The Southern states seceded precisely because they knew that the abolition of slavery was coming, sooner rather than later. 




Well it certainly came faster to them than it did to the Union states.   Slavery persisted for another six months in the Union.   And here you guys claim that was what the fight was about.   


That strikes me as cognitive dissonance.   
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2017, 12:16:36 am »

Same states that are keeping Liberals in power today.

Funny - that, isn't it?

Amazing how many folks do not comprehend the connection or the irony.
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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2017, 12:28:15 am »

Unless they consider it their land because it was before the secession. 

Are you saying South Carolina belonged to another state before secession? Did New York own South Carolina? In those days most people were quite loyal to their sovereign state, moreso than they were to the union of sovereign states. South Carolina belonged to the people of South Carolina. There was no thought in those days that the federal government somehow owned the states. They would consider that treasonous.

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2017, 12:29:51 am »
Same here,  11th North Carolina to be exact. I thank God the Union was restored.

In hindsight the union being restored was a good thing, but it created an imperious federal government, which is not good. I'd rather have a nation where almost all governing is done at the state level.

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2017, 01:09:13 am »
I'm sorry, but Trump is breathtakingly ignorant of American history, considering Andy passed away in 1845.

Trump never even registered to vote until he was 41.  Presidents elected in the time frame of which he could have voted but wasn't apparently interested:  Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon x2,
Jimmy Carter, and Ronald Reagan x2.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2017, 01:27:19 am »
In hindsight the union being restored was a good thing, but it created an imperious federal government, which is not good. I'd rather have a nation where almost all governing is done at the state level.

Had cooler heads prevailed and listened to men like Sam Houston, the union could have been preserved without the war and the destruction of rights.

Lincoln offered to send 50,000 troops to Texas who would effectively be at Houston's command but Houston declined and Lincoln didn't send them.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2017, 02:27:36 am »

Well it certainly came faster to them than it did to the Union states.   Slavery persisted for another six months in the Union.   And here you guys claim that was what the fight was about.   


That strikes me as cognitive dissonance.

Whether your initials are DT or DL, when you start from incorrect assumptions, you end up saying things that just ain't so.

Such as -- we're not claiming it was "all about slavery," but we admit (as you do not) that the Civil War wouldn't have happened without it.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2017, 11:34:00 am »
Neo-Confederate myth:

Quote
2. Secession was about tariffs and taxes.

During the nadir of post-civil-war race relations — the terrible years after 1890 when town after town across the North became all-white “sundown towns” and state after state across the South prevented African Americans from voting — “anything but slavery” explanations of the Civil War gained traction. To this day Confederate sympathizers successfully float this false claim, along with their preferred name for the conflict: the War Between the States. At the infamous Secession Ball in South Carolina, hosted in December by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, “the main reasons for secession were portrayed as high tariffs and Northern states using Southern tax money to build their own infrastructure,” The Washington Post reported.

These explanations are flatly wrong. High tariffs had prompted the Nullification Controversy in 1831-33, when, after South Carolina demanded the right to nullify federal laws or secede in protest, President Andrew Jackson threatened force. No state joined the movement, and South Carolina backed down. Tariffs were not an issue in 1860, and Southern states said nothing about them. Why would they? Southerners had written the tariff of 1857, under which the nation was functioning. Its rates were lower than at any point since 1816.

Continued: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html?utm_term=.01f5a7a82a6b

Articles of secession make no mention of tariffs but they do slavery. The nastiest things are said by so-called Christians who you don't see voting pro-life or calling slavery an evil. Good night!


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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2017, 11:42:58 am »

The Rebels fired the first shot..
The first killed in anger were likely not where you think.
And I believe the Rebels were throwing cobblestones and bricks.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/first-blood-in-the-civil-war
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #148 on: May 02, 2017, 11:52:06 am »
Same here,  11th North Carolina to be exact. I thank God the Union was restored.


In reality, had the South won, North America would be like Europe.. Constant warfare..
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2017, 12:58:24 pm »
Funny - that, isn't it?

Amazing how many folks do not comprehend the connection or the irony.


I don 't think they recognize that at the time,  the Liberal Kooks in this drama were from the Puritan North East,  same as today.   

The only difference is that nowadays their god is Government.    That too started in the Civil War.   There is a reason why the aftermath of the Civil War was called "the progressive era." 





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