Author Topic: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth  (Read 13676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #150 on: May 01, 2017, 05:27:46 pm »
Linking a blog is not a substantive argument.
:silly:

Would it help if I copy/pasted it?  Or is the well-sourced argument suddenly wrong because it was once on a blog?
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,893
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #151 on: May 01, 2017, 05:43:01 pm »
So that leaves only two alternatives: (1) the Universe, and the Earth, took a lot longer to form than any young Earth hypothesis can allow, or (2) God intentionally made a Universe and an Earth in such a way that His actual acts cannot be observed and instead observation, no matter how painstaking, leads to false conclusions about how God made the Universe and Earth. 

Or [3] Scientific observation is inaccurate, misinterpreted, or politically skewed. ALL of which have been proven to occur in the past. What happens to all of your calculations if time is subject to the standard rate of decay? What if light, likewise? How could you measure it if true?


Oceander

  • Guest
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #152 on: May 01, 2017, 05:49:19 pm »
You just dont like getting called on your words.

Either the Bible is the infallible Word of God or its a collection of neat stories.   For if each individual can proclaim a particular piece to be wrong then the entire book is not divinely inspired or infallible.

Your (or mine) lack of understanding of Gods Word does not make it incorrect.   

You have chosen to worship your own view of the Universe and not Gods.   I'd urge you to reconsider.



I love getting called on my words.  Why else am I still posting?

And I disagree with the binary view of the Bible.  Whether the six days in Genesis is literally true, using days measured as we measure them now, or is metaphorical, has little bearing on the Truth of Jesus' words. 

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,924
  • Gender: Male
  • Ride for the Brand - Joshua 24:15
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #153 on: May 01, 2017, 06:00:16 pm »
:silly:

Would it help if I copy/pasted it?  Or is the well-sourced argument suddenly wrong because it was once on a blog?
I can't recall a single college professor that let me quote blogs as a source when I was a student.  *****rollingeyes*****
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #154 on: May 01, 2017, 06:02:15 pm »
I can't recall a single college professor that let me quote blogs as a source when I was a student.  *****rollingeyes*****

Me, either, but blogs didn't exist then.

But I could cite well-sourced expositions.  And that's not even a blog, per se, but a well-sourced paper.
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,893
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #155 on: May 01, 2017, 06:04:49 pm »
And I disagree with the binary view of the Bible.  Whether the six days in Genesis is literally true, using days measured as we measure them now, or is metaphorical, has little bearing on the Truth of Jesus' words.

If you believe Jesus, then you must necessarily believe in the Flood, right?

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #156 on: May 01, 2017, 06:05:42 pm »
Here's some non-blogs:


Ancient tissue found in 195 million-year-old dinosaur rib - CNN.com

www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/world/dinosaur-rib-195-million... Proxy  Highlight

Feb 3, 2017 ... It might be the oldest soft tissue sample ever found. ... and protein remains preserved in the ribs of a dinosaur from 195 million years ago.
Controversial T. Rex Soft Tissue Find Finally Explained - Live Science

www.livescience.com/41537-t-rex-soft-tissue.html Proxy  Highlight

Nov 26, 2013 ... A T. rex found with soft tissue preserved in her bones was an 'iron lady,' ... The controversial discovery of 68-million-year-old soft tissue from the bones of a ... They found the proteins really did come from dinosaur soft tissue.
Protein preserved in 195-million-year-old dinosaur bone - The San ...

www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/biotech/sd-me-d... Proxy  Highlight

Jan 31, 2017 ... Evidence of protein inside a 195-million-year-old fossil dinosaur bone — potentially extending the record for soft tissue preservation by 100 ...
Soft tissue preserved in 80-million-year-old dino fossil | EARTH ...

https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/soft-tissue-pre... Proxy  Highlight

Soft tissue preserved in 80-million-year-old dino fossil ... collagen, a type of protein, from the femur of an 80-million-year-old hadrosaur, a duck-billed dinosaur.
How a 195-million-year-old dinosaur bone could still have soft tissue ...

www.csmonitor.com/Science/2017/0131/How-a-195-million... Proxy  Highlight

Jan 31, 2017 ... Researchers may have found preserved organic protein in a fossilized dinosaur bone unearthed in China. Why that's a big deal.
Dinosaur surprise: Scientists find collagen inside a 195-million-year ...

https://phys.org/news/2017-02-dinosaur-scientists-col... Proxy  Highlight

Feb 10, 2017 ... Dinosaur paleontology has long been the domain of bones and teeth - but ... collagen preserved in a 195-million-year-old rib from a long-necked ... ... could only last about 4 million years or so; only hard tissues like bone and ...
Dino rib yields evidence of oldest soft tissue remains - Phys.org

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-dino-rib-yields-evidenc... Proxy  Highlight

Jan 31, 2017 ... Dino rib yields evidence of oldest soft tissue remains ... A thin section of the rib of the 195 million year old dinosaur ... Such information is mostly missing from preserved hard skeletons, which form the bulk of the fossil record.
Dinosaur Shocker | Science | Smithsonian

www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocke... Proxy  Highlight

Probing a 68-million-year-old T. rex, Mary Schweitzer stumbled upon ... who insist that dinosaur soft tissue couldn't possibly survive millions of years. ... That bone turned out to be part of what may be the best preserved T. rex in the world.
Dinosaur surprise: Scientists find collagen inside a 195-million-year ...

www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-dinosaur... Proxy  Highlight

Feb 2, 2017 ... A piece of the 195-million-year-old Lufengosaurus rib, where bits of ... hard tissues like bone and teeth could be preserved over longer geologic ...
Scientists retrieve 80-million-year-old dinosaur protein in 'milestone ...

www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/scientists-retrieve-8... Proxy  Highlight

Jan 31, 2017 ... Transversely cut piece of 195-million-year-old Lufengosaurus rib ... may have preserved protein fragments in this 195-million-year-old dinosaur rib, ... Collagen is the main protein in connective tissue and is abundant in bone.

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #157 on: May 01, 2017, 06:22:54 pm »
I love getting called on my words.  Why else am I still posting?

And I disagree with the binary view of the Bible.  Whether the six days in Genesis is literally true, using days measured as we measure them now, or is metaphorical, has little bearing on the Truth of Jesus' words.

Did the Sun care if "Scientists" thought the sun revolved around the earth back in Galileo's time?
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Oceander

  • Guest
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #158 on: May 01, 2017, 06:54:20 pm »
If you believe Jesus, then you must necessarily believe in the Flood, right?

As a literal event?  No.  Again, simple physics - God's own Word - says the Ark was not physically possible. 

Oceander

  • Guest
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #159 on: May 01, 2017, 06:56:17 pm »
Did the Sun care if "Scientists" thought the sun revolved around the earth back in Galileo's time?

Eh?   Did the Sun intentionally set things up so the only logical observation was that the Sun revolved around the Earth?  Did the Sun falsify itself?

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,893
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #160 on: May 01, 2017, 07:06:53 pm »
As a literal event?  No.  Again, simple physics - God's own Word - says the Ark was not physically possible.

So if you don't believe the very words of Yeshua, who specifically endorsed the Flood, what else that he said can be so readily dismissed? If one goes down the road of allegory, there is nothing to be believed at all.

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #161 on: May 01, 2017, 07:16:10 pm »
Did the Sun care if "Scientists" thought the sun revolved around the earth back in Galileo's time?

Well, there were somehow "days" before the sun was created.
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,893
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #162 on: May 01, 2017, 07:18:29 pm »
Well, there were somehow "days" before the sun was created.

The heavenly bodies mark the days, nights, and seasons. They do not determine them

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #163 on: May 01, 2017, 07:31:34 pm »
As a literal event?  No.  Again, simple physics - God's own Word - says the Ark was not physically possible.

+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Oceander

  • Guest
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #164 on: May 01, 2017, 07:51:14 pm »
So if you don't believe the very words of Yeshua, who specifically endorsed the Flood, what else that he said can be so readily dismissed? If one goes down the road of allegory, there is nothing to be believed at all.

Nonsense.  It just means one has to do a harder job of ferreting out the truth; of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Of course, if you want to go down the hyper-literal path, then you're committed to two separate Genesis events, because the Bible contains two versions of it.  Or several different Jesuses because there are variations in the stories told by the various apostles. 

And then there are the so-called apocrypha; stories and books that, for one reason or another some long ago group of humans decided - in committee - did not belong to the set of Church-approved writings.  Is what's done, done, and none of us is entitled to exercise our own judgment to decide if those books and stories should have been thrown out?  In which case your version of the Bible is simply what some other human being, or committee of human beings, told you it would be.  If not, then how are those books to be evaluated?   What if they recite as fact things that have the sense of fact based on books of the Bible as well as other non-religious texts and archeological evidence?  Who decides?

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #165 on: May 01, 2017, 08:01:40 pm »
Quote
Matthew 13:10-17King James Version (KJV)

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Oceander

  • Guest

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,893
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #167 on: May 01, 2017, 08:44:33 pm »
Nonsense.  It just means one has to do a harder job of ferreting out the truth; of separating the wheat from the chaff.

I would say it's quite the other way. It is easy to allegorize.

Quote
Of course, if you want to go down the hyper-literal path, then you're committed to two separate Genesis events, because the Bible contains two versions of it. 

No it doesn't.

Quote
Or several different Jesuses because there are variations in the stories told by the various apostles. 

Again, not true.

Quote
And then there are the so-called apocrypha; stories and books that, for one reason or another some long ago group of humans decided - in committee - did not belong to the set of Church-approved writings.  Is what's done, done, and none of us is entitled to exercise our own judgment to decide if those books and stories should have been thrown out?  In which case your version of the Bible is simply what some other human being, or committee of human beings, told you it would be.

Again, not true. Well, true, but incidental. I do not follow cannon exactly. I embrace apocryphal and even some books considered psuedepigraphal... I am certainly free to determine which books are pertinent. Note, however, that I do hold Torah first, as being wholly defensible, and adopt much the same as the protestant canon as inviolate - The Protestant canon is agreed upon by each and every Christian denomination and discipline as being valid and unshakably the received Word, and I am no different in that.

Quote
If not, then how are those books to be evaluated?   

Foremost by internal reference. Secondly by continuity (adherence to Torah and the prophets), and not to be missed, encryption, as I have said before. Every single one of the books of the approved canon contain encryption well beyond the ability of anyone to detect fully without computers. There is no way that scribes hid or maintained such things, which they could not even see...

Much of the disagreement among Biblical scholars is naught but the deuterocanonical period - and the influence of Greeks during that time. There is no dispute wrt the Tanakh, as contained in the Masoretic Text, with the exception of additions derived during the Greek period... And there is no contention wrt the Brit Hadasha (NT) whatsoever, albeit that there are several families of text... Which are of little significant difference.

Your argument here is one you will lose. There isn't another body of text on the planet that has been given such scrutiny, nor another that has been subject to such depredations, only to survive. It's very existence is a miracle in it's own right. And thirty five thousand exemplars prove it's veracity - Not another ancient script comes anywhere near.

What the text IS is largely agreed upon. It's what it SAYS that everyone fights about. To wit:
Everyone agrees upon the Protestant Canon, to include the Jews wrt the OT (book order being different).
The Catholics and Orthodox add the Deuterocanonical texts, what Protestants call the Apocrypha (7 of the 14 to be more or less precise).
The only outlier beyond that is the Ethiopian Copts, who embrace two of the Pseudepigraphal texts (Enoch and Jasher I believe).

Considering the massive opposition between denominations, that's a pretty good outcome, since each denomination has studied canon separately, and have, amid their oppositions, come to the much the same conclusions.

Quote
What if they recite as fact things that have the sense of fact based on books of the Bible as well as other non-religious texts and archeological evidence?  Who decides?

But they do not have continuity with the Bible. Or their providence is in question. That is why they are not accepted. EVERYONE decided. The lion's share of the books you refer to are the gnostic texts - easily dismissed. And the extended psuedepigrapha, also easily and profoundly dismissed. Only a very few deserve a second look.

If there is one particularly that you are referring to, please let me know, as I am fairly well versed in it all.

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,829
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #168 on: May 01, 2017, 08:52:11 pm »
Logic still plays some small role.  One need not get into that chestnut to nonetheless point out that a young Earth hypothesis necessarily requires that God have created a false Earth.  If God created the Universe in six days, as a day is measured now, why did He go to such lengths to make everything appear as if it had taken aeons and aeons?  Why deceive?  What end is gained?

If the Bible can only be read to mean that it only took six days, or only took 50,000 years, then the Bible is in error.  It was written by human hands and has been repeatedly transcribed and translated, and those who wrote it did not have the observational tools available to us, so the existence of an error of this sort is wholly understandable. 

If you can't deal with that, if you prefer the dried ink of a dead sinner's hand to the living Word of God writ in existence itself, so be it.  Just don't be too surprised that so few people are willing to take you seriously.
Lighten up.

If God is everywhere, that really raises some questions about His relationship to space/time. Even Heisenberg put a particle in a general area of space, not all of space itself.

For The Almighty to be all places at once, needless to say, He moves at some multiple of C, as we have measured it and relative to our planet.

The Time dilation effect is pretty much verified and accepted by we mere mortals, and all we need to do to account for the perceived disparity is to apply it.

Since Genesis is the inspired word of The Creator, the book is written from His viewpoint and time reference. Six days in His time reference could well be (hundreds or thousands of) millions of years on planet Earth, even given our meager understanding of fundamental forces such as gravity, and space/time.
We have already postulated the social difficulties of traveling near C (relativistic velocities) for the crew of such a ship, who might have one in every port, but who would return to either find them vastly more aged or long gone, who might meet their own great great great grand children as elderly people. If we can apply this to the ideas of human existence, why can't we apply such a fundamental concept to creation itself?
 
I have no trouble reconciling the two because I see science as our attempt to understand what He id and how He did it, not to question IF He did it. If we won't even apply our neophyte science to that, our understanding will indeed be flawed.

If that causes me to not be taken seriously, discard everything past Newton and start over.

BTW, regardless of what you think of my thoughts on this subject, I have found a lot of oil and I'm not done yet. It is those who took me seriously who benefited in the short term, the 'big boys' didn't buy in until the concepts had been proven.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #169 on: May 02, 2017, 12:11:22 am »
The heavenly bodies mark the days, nights, and seasons. They do not determine them

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #170 on: May 02, 2017, 12:30:56 am »
Quote
"There isn't another body of text on the planet that has been given such scrutiny, nor another that has been subject to such depredations, only to survive."

Yet, after millennia of such scrutiny survived by the traditional interpretation of biblical texts, about 100 years ago man decided to reinterpret The Bible in a way that it had never before been interpreted.

Biblical literalism (and its proponents) is just one of the many heresies elevated by men since the birth of Pauline Christianity.

When one chooses to labor over the words in the Scriptures, one tends to lose sight of the meanings of the lessons.

Biblical literalism one/or inerrancy are unsustainable positions to take due to the many inconsistencies and contradictions found in the book.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,893
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #171 on: May 02, 2017, 01:57:36 am »
Yet, after millennia of such scrutiny survived by the traditional interpretation of biblical texts, about 100 years ago man decided to reinterpret The Bible in a way that it had never before been interpreted.

Biblical literalism (and its proponents) is just one of the many heresies elevated by men since the birth of Pauline Christianity.

NONSENSE. Strict literalism is the norm. it was gnosticism that brought forth allegory... And allegory is always used as license to twist the scriptures... In the Bible, this is called wickedness - Wicked, the twisting of wicks - twisting the Scriptures to suit one's desires. It inevitably ends in libertinism, as can be plainly seen in the denominations that practice allegorical interpretation. They are the most liberal-leaning denominations, as their permissive interpretation inevitably leads them there. It is the fundamentalist churches that remain close to orthodoxy.

And btw, thanks. I have not been called 'Pauline' in a very long time (and my Pauline brethren, I am sure, would certainly disagree. ROTFLMAO).

Quote
When one chooses to labor over the words in the Scriptures, one tends to lose sight of the meanings of the lessons.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)

Your statement is diametrically opposed to what the Bible says. I can haul out at least twenty more where that came from. We are to study in order to rightly divide the Word. Oddly enough, I can't think of a single verse that says 'Don't spend too much time thinking about this stuff'... Go figger.

Quote
Biblical literalism one/or inerrancy are unsustainable positions to take due to the many inconsistencies and contradictions found in the book.

There are not contradictions. The Hebrews will tell you - What seems to be a contradiction is a reason to dig deeper. You'll always find a truth... And that is true.

But you are welcome to school me. I have looong been subjected to the lists from websites that will fuel your posts.


Offline goodwithagun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,543
  • Gender: Female
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #172 on: May 02, 2017, 02:14:29 am »
@mystery-ak  These threads  8888crybaby **nononono* :nono:
I stand with Roosgirl.

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #173 on: May 02, 2017, 02:38:14 am »
@mystery-ak  These threads  8888crybaby **nononono* :nono:

Nothing's wrong with this thread.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,746
Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #174 on: May 02, 2017, 02:46:22 am »
I'm not threatened by the Word of God - I embrace it - I just prefer what God actually wrote: the physical creation itself to the words of other human beings, no matter how well-intentioned or how divinely inspired they claim to have been. 

Why are you so afraid of God's creation that you feel so compelled to hide from it behind the dried ink of long-dead human beings?
All the posts you have done on this thread can be summed up simply as: 

"I am smart enough to see what God has done and can understand it well enough to know the Bible is in error."

That is the arrogance, and a rejection that the bible is in fact the actual Word of God.

No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington