GOP lawmakers in North Carolina introduce bill to restore ban on same-sex marriage

[Hoodat]

That quite the self-serving view of salvation you have there.  Have you ever looked at salvation as an opportunity rather than an accomplishment?

I really don't think God is that rigid and I'm quite sure he takes each case differently. If God sends those 2 gay men for Hell for doing good all their lives he is not a God I would respect.

What about the atheist or agnostic who is the same,  has done good all his life but God takes him away in an accident before he can repent or accept. God sending him to Hell? I don't think so.

If he did ..God is  an a$$hole but he is not.

@Hoodat

I guess not.

[mirraflake]

 Have you ever looked at salvation as an opportunity rather than an accomplishment?
I guess not.

I would think if a person led a truly righteous life with all the temptations we have God would think that is quite an accomplishment in itself.

@Hoodat

[driftdiver]

See the bolded....because those points are correct.  Jesus stood up to those exact folks...call them what you will (and bible thumpers is as good a descriptor as any). What Jesus did was brave, smart and wise. Jazz is following exactly in those footsteps, standing up to the modern day versions of Pharissees...what we today call bible thumpers.

@Mesaclone

So the guy who says parts of the bible are wrong is following in the footsteps of Jesus?  No you are misguided.

Homosexuality is a sin.  The Bible is very clear on that issue.  It is not bible thumping to say so.

Does that mean homosexuals must be treated poorly or hated?  Of course not, but to condone the sin is wrong.

[Mesaclone]

This mentality that life is some sort of religious/doctrinal test with a pass/fail outcome is absurd...and exactly what Jesus came to fight and end.

God loves in a way that is deeper and more lasting than we can conceive...more than we all love our own children. Not one of us would ever condemn our own child to an eternal suffering...which is pointless and cruel. Yes, we let them face the consequences of their actions, and yes we make them learn to repent and correct their mistakes as they grow and learn. And our love is imperfect. God's love is perfect and unending, and so his mercy is far greater than our own towards our children. God will not suffer those he loves to be forever separated from him...only a human could imagine and create concepts like hellfire and eternal damnation. Our free will, because it is eventually informed by truth, will always lead us back to god.

So in this context, salvation is not a rescue from pain and punishment...it is a returning to god. We leave god because we are ignorant and foolish...childlike...and we return to him when our understanding and maturity grow. This is what god and Jesus call us to...he does not call us back with the threat of punishment, but with the promise of reward.

A deity that would send its own creation to eternal suffering...is not loving or good. He/She would be a truly monstrous evil. Fortunately, that "monstrosity" exists ONLY in human thought, god herself is the diametric opposite of such a concept....a fully loving and kind parent.

Jesus preaching, details aside, was about love and forgiveness...on all levels. Its sad to see that so many have rejected that in favor the path of the Sadducees...that of judgement, punishment, rigidity and hatred. Yet even that cannot last, because truth and god's love will in time overcome these human impediments. We, even the fundamentalist bible thumpers, will all eventually find our way to the true and loving god and to eternal oneness with the divine.

On that note, this conversation has clearly played itself out intellectually. God's love and her blessings to all of you.

[Mesaclone]

@Mesaclone

So the guy who says parts of the bible are wrong is following in the footsteps of Jesus?  No you are misguided.

Homosexuality is a sin.  The Bible is very clear on that issue.  It is not bible thumping to say so.

Does that mean homosexuals must be treated poorly or hated?  Of course not, but to condone the sin is wrong.

A last quick note to answer this.

It is because parts of it are also right...though often not literally so.

[INVAR]

See the bolded....because those points are correct.  Jesus stood up to those exact folks...call them what you will (and bible thumpers is as good a descriptor as any). What Jesus did was brave, smart and wise. Jazz is following exactly in those footsteps, standing up to the modern day versions of Pharissees...what we today call bible thumpers.

Horse and dog poop mixed.

You and Jazz both are the epitome of what Isaiah 5:20-21 warns us against.

However, since you both worship the unbiblical for your own golden calves, and conform God to your perverted mindsets instead of being conformed to His, your disdain and hatred for the plain Word of God is not surprising - doing that exact thing that you accuse us of doing.

Like the Pharisees, you have crafted God into your own image based on your own desires and based on the scriptures you discard and discount and by what imaginations of God you ascribe.  You combine the God of scripture with Buddha as some kind of divine revelation of knowledge.

In short, you come preaching another Jesus - a foreign god not from scripture - but from your own imagination.

This is what god and Jesus call us to...he does not call us back with the threat of punishment, but with the promise of reward.

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". - Matthew 13:42-43

You are exactly what Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:26, preaching a Jesus not from God. Preaching yourselves your own intellect rather than Him Crucified.  You praise and promote the practitioners of wickedness and abomination as practitioners of virtue and holiness while denouncing those standing on the Word of God itself as an evil.

No biblical Christian on this board should regard anything you have to say in matters pertaining to the bible, Jesus or Yahweh.  You are espousing doctrines of demons and preaching a gospel from the prince of the power of the air.

I pray legislatures like South Carolina do follow through on their pledge to serve their state citizens and ban the imposition of homosexual marriage by the feds.

[roamer_1]

See the bolded....because those points are correct.  Jesus stood up to those exact folks...call them what you will (and bible thumpers is as good a descriptor as any). What Jesus did was brave, smart and wise. Jazz is following exactly in those footsteps, standing up to the modern day versions of Pharissees...what we today call bible thumpers.

In this you are exactly, and perfectly wrong.

Every single thing Yeshua said and everything Yeshua did, to include the healings he performed were a direct support of Torah and a direct and purposeful contradiction of the Pharisees 'takanot and ma'asim' - the things the Pharisees said and did which were not in Torah.

The argument over the washing of the hands, the dispute over the disciples gleaning on the Sabbath, The healing of the cripple on the Sabbath, even the method with which he healed the blind man at the pool of Siloam.

Every single thing directly, pointedly AGAINST the made up crap the Pharisees served up -That which was *not* to be found in the Law, but which *was* to be found in their additions to Torah (Talmud)

Every single thing perfectly and directly supporting and correcting what is in the Law.

What Christians here are saying IS in the Law, and IS in the Testimony.
What you and @Jazzhead  are saying is not.

Your position is formed in ignorance. You are most certainly misinformed.

[Sanguine]

We are all ignorant in some areas.  It's a good thing to be exposed to the truth, if we can open our ears to hear and eyes to see.

[Mesaclone]

Horse and dog poop mixed.

You and Jazz both are the epitome of what Isaiah 5:20-21 warns us against.

However, since you both worship the unbiblical for your own golden calves, and conform God to your perverted mindsets instead of being conformed to His, your disdain and hatred for the plain Word of God is not surprising - doing that exact thing that you accuse us of doing.

On the contrary, you've made a book your Golden Calf.

The early church existed for centuries without collecting a number of writings into a singular tome and calling it "the book" (Biblos)...having done so, in a very political way, they later declared it innately infallible and perfect. Because they said so. This book, sadly, has become your Golden Idol, you worship it and its words while failing to see God and his love all around you...and yes, in you. A collection of books can be a tool for knowledge, and this is true of the bible to an extent...it can even be a path towards enlightenment if used in a rational way. You have perverted it into an idol, and a rationale for anger, punishment and hate...and that was hardly the message of Jesus.

But you have used "Biblos" to supplant god...to replace him...rather than to grow near to him. You use it as a bludgeon to those who don't adhere to your personal view of the Biblos, and you treat as a pagan does a relic. You counter this charge only by proclaiming it is god's untouchable word...a claim that has no approbation from god himself...in other words, you make it a Golden Calf. But what it is, in actuality, is a collection that men wrote and then very politically assembled together into a tome.

The disciple Thomas knew where god was found...and he said so quite clearly in Thomas 9-21:

"If those pulling you say to you, 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky' the birds of the sky will go before you. Or if they say that it is beneath the ground, the fish of the sea will go in, preceding you. And the kingdom of God is within you and outside you. Whoever knows himself will find this and when you know yourselves you will know that you are children of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you are in poverty and you are the poverty." Gospel of Thomas

Further:

...Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there. Gospel of Thomas


God is not found in a book written by men, he is in you and as Thomas said...when you know yourself you will know that you are children of the living Father. Jesus knew himself, emulate that.

[Hoodat]

I would think if a person led a truly righteous life with all the temptations we have God would think that is quite an accomplishment in itself.

@Hoodat

Clearly, you don't get it.  It's not about performance.

I suggest you read the story of the prodigal son and take into consideration the perspective of the third son.  Man's original sin was to be independent from God.  Christ came so that we could be reconciled with the Father.

[Mesaclone]

Clearly, you don't get it.  It's not about performance.

I suggest you read the story of the prodigal son and take into consideration the perspective of the third son.  Man's original sin was to be independent from God.  Christ came so that we could be reconciled with the Father.

The concept of original sin was a creation of Augustine of Hippo...for hundreds of years the church was devoid of this silly and culturally tainted absurdity. It was bunk then, and its bunk now. It was drawn from a misreading of Paul on the topic of sin entering the world through Adam...and even that was just the thoughts of Paul, not of god. Wiser men like Pelagius debunked it at the time, but Augustine's powerful sponsors and political connections won out.

[INVAR]

On the contrary, you've made a book your Golden Calf.

Exactly what Satan would want people to believe.

Like him, whom you assert does not exist - you transform yourself and your false god into an angel of light.

You are just like talking to the Hindu priests that came storming into the church to denounce our faith.   Your religious excuses and explanations for denouncing the scriptures to loft your imaginary deity are nearly identical to theirs.

I know what spirit you speak from, and it is not from anything I worship or consider to be from God.

I would completely ignore you - save for the fact that it is instructive for the Christians here to witness spiritual warfare against wickedness in High Places.

[Hoodat]

The concept of original sin was a creation of Augustine of Hippo...for hundreds of years the church was devoid of this silly and culturally tainted absurdity.

My statement had nothing at all to do with this concept.  It was not a statement about transmission, or collective guilt, or anything having to do with our current condition.  It only identified the point at which Adam/Eve ventured outside the covering of the Father.

Perhaps you should actually read what others post instead of reading just one or two words and making broad-based assumptions.


For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.  For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Romans 8:18-21

[roamer_1]

On the contrary, you've made a book your Golden Calf.

The early church existed for centuries without collecting a number of writings into a singular tome and calling it "the book" (Biblos)...having done so, in a very political way, they later declared it innately infallible and perfect. Because they said so. This book, sadly, has become your Golden Idol, you worship it and its words while failing to see God and his love all around you...and yes, in you.

What a bunch of hooey. The church is or was a sect of Judaism in it's beginning. It has never been without the Book, because it has always had, from it's start, the Tanakh - Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings.

Again, outright wrong, on it;s face.

A collection of books can be a tool for knowledge, and this is true of the bible to an extent...it can even be a path towards enlightenment if used in a rational way. You have perverted it into an idol, and a rationale for anger, punishment and hate...and that was hardly the message of Jesus.

But you have used "Biblos" to supplant god...to replace him...rather than to grow near to him. You use it as a bludgeon to those who don't adhere to your personal view of the Biblos, and you treat as a pagan does a relic.

I am finding nothing here but projection.

You counter this charge only by proclaiming it is god's untouchable word...a claim that has no approbation from god himself...in other words, you make it a Golden Calf. But what it is, in actuality, is a collection that men wrote and then very politically assembled together into a tome.

Absolutely incorrect. God Himself did indeed make such a claim. TORAH. Unchanging and always. Anyone who says otherwise, anyone who adds to or takes away, anything other than Torah is *not* of Yahweh. That is pretty untouchable. And those words are guarded and guaranteed with forms of encryption that we are just now beginning to understand with the aid of computers. Magnificent.

The disciple Thomas knew where god was found...and he said so quite clearly in Thomas 9-21:

"If those pulling you say to you, 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky' the birds of the sky will go before you. Or if they say that it is beneath the ground, the fish of the sea will go in, preceding you. And the kingdom of God is within you and outside you. Whoever knows himself will find this and when you know yourselves you will know that you are children of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you are in poverty and you are the poverty." Gospel of Thomas

Further:

...Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there. Gospel of Thomas

Meh. More gnostic bullcrap. Gnosis... Knowlege... Do you know another word in the Greek with that meaning? Daimon... Demon.

Be careful who you listen to.

God is not found in a book written by men, he is in you and as Thomas said...when you know yourself you will know that you are children of the living Father. Jesus knew himself, emulate that.

How very convenient it must be to have nothing written in stone... Where what you desire governs what is right and wrong. Where every contradiction between will and conscience can be thrown to the wind. It reminds me of... 'Do as thou wilt', where one is his own judge and god can be just about anything you want. Nothing to please but your own vanity.

Must be nice.

[Mesaclone]

What a bunch of hooey. The church is or was a sect of Judaism in it's beginning. It has never been without the Book, because it has always had, from it's start, the Tanakh - Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings.

Again, outright wrong, on it;s face.

I am finding nothing here but projection.

Absolutely incorrect. God Himself did indeed make such a claim. TORAH. Unchanging and always. Anyone who says otherwise, anyone who adds to or takes away, anything other than Torah is *not* of Yahweh. That is pretty untouchable. And those words are guarded and guaranteed with forms of encryption that we are just now beginning to understand with the aid of computers. Magnificent.

Meh. More gnostic bullcrap. Gnosis... Knowlege... Do you know another word in the Greek with that meaning? Daimon... Demon.

Be careful who you listen to.

How very convenient it must be to have nothing written in stone... Where what you desire governs what is right and wrong. Where every contradiction between will and conscience can be thrown to the wind. It reminds me of... 'Do as thou wilt', where one is his own judge and god can be just about anything you want. Nothing to please but your own vanity.

Must be nice.

It has never been without the Book.
Yes, it has. Without a bible at least. It had the Jewish writings of the Old Testament, and absolutely nothing of the New...as it was either unwritten at the time or simply one of many early writings that various groups adhered to across the Mediterranean. So what you wrote is total baloney.


TORAH. Unchanging and always.
Torah is not the "biblos" that was assembled in the 3rd and 4th centuries...it was a small part of the larger work. Further, if a text "says" god says its infallible and can't be changed....that's still just a man writing what he believes god thinks/wants. Men wrote the books, not god, and their use of god to validate what they wrote is as unsurprising as it is non-credible. Again, you write MORE baloney. Try knowing your own "books" history for a change.

I am finding nothing here but projection.
You are finding what you brought with you to the discussion. Not uncommon, but rather foolish.

Gnosis... Knowlege... Do you know another word in the Greek with that meaning? Daimon... Demon.
Clearly, you are not an etymologist. The word Daimon is a Greek term referencing "spirit" or a "moving force", it does not mean knowledge nor does it refer to either a good or evil motive. Gnosis on the other hand, is simply a word for "knowledge" or "to know" or even "knowing". It is not related to Daimon, which is a truncation of Eudaimonia which means good "spiritedness". Christians saw pagans worshipping "good spirited forces" and used the word as a negative in referring to Pagan daemon. So you've taken two entirely unrelated things and sought to combine for effect...but you've failed because...well...you simply are incorrect in your understanding of both words.

 How very convenient it must be to have nothing written in stone...
God doesn't write in stone, or ink. Men do. God writes in our hearts and in the very air around us. It can be convenient, but its also trying  because men often blind themselves to the god who is in and all around them. As for god's love, that is...metaphorically...written in stone and stamped on every atom. So its has a permanence that no book or doctrine can ever compete with.

Be careful who you listen to.
Good advice for all. Could not agree more. That includes of course, men who wrote books that were later collected into a "biblos", now called a bible. These fellows of the 2nd and 3rd centuries were plagued by the same failings, inadequacies, biases and foolishness as we are today. Worshipping their collection is idol worship....literally. The only one you should listen to is the voice of God in your heart and in the world around you...that is the true bible.

[INVAR]

How very convenient it must be to have nothing written in stone... Where what you desire governs what is right and wrong. Where every contradiction between will and conscience can be thrown to the wind. It reminds me of... 'Do as thou wilt', where one is his own judge and god can be just about anything you want. Nothing to please but your own vanity.

Must be nice.

No.  It's not nice.

Look around - the consequences of that Gnostic/Daimon is everywhere in the world.  Misery.  Suffering.  Confusion.  Deviancy.   The vilest oppressions and genocides being perpetrated by similar 'superior' intellects that loft the human passions and reasonings as the be-all, end-all pursuit of utopia.   The devolution of our own culture is a direct result of the gnostic/Hindu/Humanist/Buddhist/Atheist mindset whereby they pick and choose and decide that they are of themselves god and determine their own morality based on their passions and views.   The results being the stupidity that is being protected in law that now decree that people can determine their own gender regardless of what plumbing they are born with.

Mescalone will tell us to follow the god of our own heart, but you and I know that is of Satan - for it is Written: "The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" - Jer. 17:9

[Mesaclone]

No.  It's not nice.

Look around - the consequences of that Gnostic/Daimon is everywhere in the world.  Misery.  Suffering.  Confusion.  Deviancy.   The vilest oppressions and genocides being perpetrated by similar 'superior' intellects that loft the human passions and reasonings as the be-all, end-all pursuit of utopia.   The devolution of our own culture is a direct result of the gnostic/Hindu/Humanist/Buddhist/Atheist mindset whereby they pick and choose and decide that they are of themselves god and determine their own morality based on their passions and views.   The results being the stupidity that is being protected in law that now decree that people can determine their own gender regardless of what plumbing they are born with.

Mescalone will tell us to follow the god of our own heart, but you and I know that is of Satan - for it is Written: "The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" - Jer. 17:9

The vast majority of horrors in this world have been committed by religious fanatics...those who claim only they know the will of god through their "holy book". Sound familiar.

Gnostic christians are a miniscule minority...perhaps only Unitarians could aptly fit their belief system. Though it IS true that Gnosticism and other early Christian beliefs such as Arianism were the prevalent doctrines in early Christianity. But that was long ago, and was violently crushed and its followers slaughtered by the benevolent fundamentalists of their age. Only a genuinely ill informed person could see them as a serious factor in the evolution of modern western culture. Likewise, Buddhism has little or no influence in the West or in the Islamic world.

No...terror in this modern age has come from the religious fundamentalists of the planet...men who KNOW they worship the god the RIGHT way, and believe their views should be imposed on everyone else. Kinda like you want your views enshrined in our governance....a milder strain, no doubt, of the kind of fanaticism that has cost so many lives this past century.

[INVAR]

The vast majority of horrors in this world have been committed by religious fanatics...of the kind of fanaticism that has cost so many lives this past century.

Exactly what we always hear Liberal agnostic/Atheist Socialists tell us (as well as Jihadists).  CHRISTIANITY is the problem.

Except of course it's the secular /Secular/Agnostic Atheists that have killed more human beings this last century than all the crusades and wars of the last 500 years combined.

[Cripplecreek]

Exactly what we always hear Liberal agnostic/Atheist Socialists tell us (as well as Jihadists).  CHRISTIANITY is the problem.

Except of course it's the secular /Secular/Agnostic Atheists that have killed more human beings this last century than all the crusades and wars of the last 500 years combined.

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hirohito, Mao.

[Silver Pines]

I would think if a person led a truly righteous life with all the temptations we have God would think that is quite an accomplishment in itself.

@mirraflake

Not possible.  God is perfect, so to be granted heaven you would have to achieve perfection---in life----on your own.  That means not one single negative/wrong thought or action during your lifetime.

Human nature being what it is, it can't be done.  Look at us here; every one of us has blown true righteousness on this thread alone.

[Mesaclone]

Exactly what we always hear Liberal agnostic/Atheist Socialists tell us (as well as Jihadists).  CHRISTIANITY is the problem.

Except of course it's the secular /Secular/Agnostic Atheists that have killed more human beings this last century than all the crusades and wars of the last 500 years combined.

First, I said Religious Fundamentalists...not Christians.

Second, while I would not argue that Hitler was religious....Hitler and the Nazi party promoted "Positive Christianity", a movement which rejected most traditional Christian doctrines such as the Apostles' Creed, as well as Jewish elements such as the Old Testament. However, Hitler claimed that he continued to believe in an active Deity, and to hold Jesus in high esteem as an "Aryan fighter" who struggled against Jewry. ...he used religion as a weapon of propaganda and militaristic motivation. He was a baptized and confirmed Roman catholic by upbringing. Even in Mein Kampf and later writings, he claimed to be a Christian.

As for communism in general, it became religion in the sense of its fervor for "rightness" and its proclamation of having the only access to "truth". Again, its just another side of the coin of fundamentalism and a part of the slaughter and death wrought by these forces. As an advocate for belief in the true mission of Jesus, I condemn that fundamentalism in all its forms...religious and pseudo-religious alike.

[Smokin Joe]

First, I said Religious Fundamentalists...not Christians.

Second, while I would not argue that Hitler was religious....Hitler and the Nazi party promoted "Positive Christianity", a movement which rejected most traditional Christian doctrines such as the Apostles' Creed, as well as Jewish elements such as the Old Testament. However, Hitler claimed that he continued to believe in an active Deity, and to hold Jesus in high esteem as an "Aryan fighter" who struggled against Jewry. ...he used religion as a weapon of propaganda and militaristic motivation. He was a baptized and confirmed Roman catholic by upbringing. Even in Mein Kampf and later writings, he claimed to be a Christian.

As for communism in general, it became religion in the sense of its fervor for "rightness" and its proclamation of having the only access to "truth". Again, its just another side of the coin of fundamentalism and a part of the slaughter and death wrought by these forces. As an advocate for belief in the true mission of Jesus, I condemn that fundamentalism in all its forms...religious and pseudo-religious alike.

I think you are talking about fanatics, more than fundamentalists. A fundamentalist is one who goes back to basics--fundamentals--and there are many who will claim the title but few actually are. However, history is rife with fanatics of every stripe, who believe they have the only answer, that they alone can solve the problems of the age, and who will slaughter all who stand in their way. Then, you have people who are just murderous bastards regardless of what or who (if anything) they claim to worship.

[Mesaclone]

I think you are talking about fanatics, more than fundamentalists. A fundamentalist is one who goes back to basics--fundamentals--and there are many who will claim the title but few actually are. However, history is rife with fanatics of every stripe, who believe they have the only answer, that they alone can solve the problems of the age, and who will slaughter all who stand in their way. Then, you have people who are just murderous bastards regardless of what or who (if anything) they claim to worship.

Can't argue with any of that. Fanatics it is...and the hallmark of that trait is a certainty of rightness and a fervor to make others agree. That can, as you say, apply to both religious and secular persons.

[INVAR]

As an advocate for belief in the true mission of Jesus, I condemn that fundamentalism in all its forms...religious and pseudo-religious alike.

You have absolutely no understanding of the true mission of Yeshua/Jesus.  None.

You have condemned Him and His Fundamentalism to His Truth from His Word right here on this thread, and declared openly that the parts of the bible you do not like - are bogus.

[Mesaclone]

You have absolutely no understanding of the true mission of Yeshua/Jesus.  None.

You have condemned Him and His Fundamentalism to His Truth from His Word right here on this thread, and declared openly that the parts of the bible you do not like - are bogus.

What I understand is that the truth of god is in us and all around us...not in any book. If that makes me devil spawn in your eyes, I am sad for you...you have a very long journey ahead of you, though I've no doubt that in the end you will find your way to god. While I'm sad you are so angry and far from her now, it brings me joy to know we will meet in him one day.

See, just what I wouldn't do...is condemn. Especially not Jesus. Like Buddha and other wise men, he spoke truth...of love and forgiveness, the only real path to god. He was a man of wisdom and practicality...even humor. As for what I proclaim bogus, its rather simple...that which paints god and Jesus as anything other than pure love, pure forgiveness, rationality and the absence of judgement. Further, I look to biblical scholars like Crossan, Bawer, Funk and others of the Jesus Seminar and like philosophy...and their textual analysis (a scientific method applied ancient texts of all kinds to separate original material from edits and late editions).

Further, men like Archbishop Shelby Spong, a friend and mentor from whom I have learned much...guides my thoughts on the true nature of Jesus and the bible itself. You may disagree, but your eagerness to proclaim those who view Jesus in their own way as agents of "Satan" says everything anyone needs to know about your intellectual talents and knowledge of the subject matter.