Author Topic: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus  (Read 11477 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #150 on: April 06, 2017, 07:31:54 pm »
Can you name one that was eliminated your way -- in one fell swoop?  Me neither.

The only entitlement program of signficance that was ever eliminated was AFDC - the quintessential "welfare program" -- as part of the 1996 welfare reforms.  But it wasn't just eliminated "root and branch" -- it was replaced by some other programs that still offered some assistance but eliminated the "entitlement" aspect.  Some might also toss CETA into the mix, which was reformed, downsized (but not eliminated), and renamed by Reagan in 1982.

Pre-reform welfare and CETA were horrible programs for which the votes didn't exist to just repeal completely.  So Reagan (CETA) and Gingrich (welfare reform) reduced them as much as they could.  I assume you opposed welfare reform as well, but I think most of us rightly supported it.



This is not a response to your point above,  but rather it is relevant to an early discussion on the subject.   



https://pjmedia.com/blog/liveblogevent/thursdays-hot-mic/entry-205014/
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,988
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #151 on: April 06, 2017, 08:31:42 pm »
One of the first things Obama and the Rats did when he was elected was to repeal the welfare reform written by Gingrich.  The same would happen with ObummerCare.

That's actually not a response to the point I made, but I'll address it anyway.

Your argument is "the Democrats will just undo it when they get power anyway."  But that argument applies just as much if we somehow managed to repeal the whole thing.  They'd just re-enact it or pass something even worse when they got power again.  So we might as well not do anything because the left will just undo it.  That seems to be the only conclusion to be drawn from your post.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,988
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #152 on: April 06, 2017, 08:42:38 pm »
So you have resigned yourself to surrendering to the belief that Government-Run healthcare is here to stay in perpetuity and simply needs to be managed and propped up with one program after another to create the illusion of downsizing government oversight of every aspect of your life.

I take it that as confirmation that you don't have any examples of your "all or nothing" approach succeeding. Thought so.

As to your question, I've resigned myself to nothing.  I keep fighting, winning what victories we can, because the longer it takes until full statism is here, the better for me and mine.  The years when welfare reform was still in place were better years than they would have been otherwise, and living with a partially repealed ObamaCare would be preferable to living with the whole thing.  Your approach suggests that life is not worth living unless we have 100% liberty, and a full-on laissez-faire economy.  I reject that.  Life can still be worth living even if I don't agree 100% with governmental policies.  To me, one's life must be extraordinarily empty if happiness is in control of the government, because that essentially means your possibility for happiness is controlled by other people.

Additionally, I keep fighting because you never know what can happen.  It's like any war -- as long as you're fighting and haven't yet lost, with an army in the field, you still have the chance to have fortune go your way and attain a victory that you thought was unattainable.  Maybe we are in a political Valley Forge, where keeping up the fight instead of throwing up our hands and walking away from the struggle is the truly moral course to take.

We just see these things completely opposite.  To me, your argument is no different from someone saying "well, I'm going to die anyway, so there's no point in even trying to stay alive because death will win in the end anyway.  I'm not a defeatist, so I don't accept the fact that we may lose in the long run as a reason to stop fighting now.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #153 on: April 06, 2017, 09:33:00 pm »
I take it that as confirmation that you don't have any examples of your "all or nothing" approach succeeding. Thought so.

Why so smug?  You couldn't provide a single instance or example of a government reducing it's power piece by piece, little by little either.  That was the original point of argument when it was brought up. 

As to your question, I've resigned myself to nothing. 

Horsefeathers.  Your reply in 146 specifically cites AFDC as a program reduced, but then you go on to correctly note that it still exists, having been simply reshuffled and reapportioned oversight elsewhere and only to have the welfare reform package that achieved that reapportion revoked by Obama and his party when he took office.

Once accepted that government has a role in welfare, forever the fight is going to be about how much is to be stolen at gunpoint from the producers to give to those who vote the politicians into perpetual power.  That is all your argument is.  Once you accept that government has a role in administering healthcare - forever your fight is going to be about how much they can regulate your lifestyle, your diet, your activities and so forth.  You will spend the rest of your life fighting to retain what crumbs you want to hold onto - when you lost the fight the moment your principles surrendered to the idea that government has the authority to administer your healthcare.

As the adage was stated, once you have allowed yourself to be sold into slavery - the only haggling that remains is for how much.  That is all you will end up doing.

Your approach suggests that life is not worth living unless we have 100% liberty, and a full-on laissez-faire economy.  I reject that. 

Of course you do.  Your statement is the epitome of what Jefferson penned when he wrote that "All experience hath shown that mankind are disposed to suffer evil, while evils are sufferable, rather than abolish the forms to which they have become accustomed".  You have decided that this particular evil is sufferable and worth suffering under because you bought into the lie that evil is going to leave you alone - when both scripture and experience illustrate that a little leaven, leavens completely and thoroughly.  Eventually it will dominate you, and your posterity.

Additionally, I keep fighting because you never know what can happen.

Well you are certainly welcome to consider your POV to be fighting and waging war.  To me, it appears more like practicing insanity than making any progress towards liberty.

We just see these things completely opposite.  To me, your argument is no different from someone saying "well, I'm going to die anyway, so there's no point in even trying to stay alive because death will win in the end anyway.  I'm not a defeatist, so I don't accept the fact that we may lose in the long run as a reason to stop fighting now.

You seem to have accepted enemy occupation of a contested area they claim is their right to hold and demand tribute from.  You have already accepted their claim and authority that such area belongs to them and tribute due.   So you are going to spend the rest of your life arguing and pleading for your tribute to be lessened.   How sad that your definitions of victory are so temporal and your eyesight so limited to other ground available to wage resistance from rather than in the corrupted fetid swamps of DC politics. 

That said, the warnings go out - the pleas and arguments have been made - and the consequences are still going to be visited upon us unless this nation's course pulls a 180.  Yet both of us agree that is not likely to happen.  You say full repeal is impossible, I say it is necessary - so where you and I differ, is that I note the consequences for leaving any part of it intact and you deny they exist save for being caused by people like me for merely reminding others of what those consequences are going to be.

If this people choose to jump off the cliff into full blown Marxism, then they are going to jump.  You can 'fight' all you want on your flight down to regain your altitude - but the impact is going to be the same.  Settling for government to have authority over your healthcare is a past-tense leap off the cliff into that chasm.  I may be yanked down with the rest of the mob, but it will not be due the fact I shrugged my shoulders and said 'Oh well, let's work to reduce the impact' and jumping off the cliff myself.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #154 on: April 06, 2017, 09:45:24 pm »
If this people choose to jump off the cliff into full blown Marxism, then they are going to jump.  You can 'fight' all you want on your flight down to regain your altitude - but the impact is going to be the same.  Settling for government to have authority over your healthcare is a past-tense leap off the cliff into that chasm.  I may be yanked down with the rest of the mob, but it will not be due the fact I shrugged my shoulders and said 'Oh well, let's work to reduce the impact' and jumping off the cliff myself.

 *****rollingeyes*****

Offline bilo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,340
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #155 on: April 06, 2017, 10:01:44 pm »
I for one am really encouraged about today's news that they are looking to establish a high risk pool at the federal level for 3 years and then move it to the State level and eliminate the pre-existing conditions exclusion. Now if they will agree to eliminate "community rating" where everybody has to buy the same package of benefits they will have resiolved the 2 greatest factors in premiums rising. I know the moderates don't like actually doing what they said they would but this would be a big win along with block granting medicaid funds to the States.

Thank God for the Freedom Caucus. They are the only group that actually is trying to do what they said they would. I know where my campaign donations are going.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,982
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #156 on: April 06, 2017, 10:12:07 pm »
So you have resigned yourself to surrendering to the belief that Government-Run healthcare is here to stay in perpetuity and simply needs to be managed and propped up with one program after another to create the illusion of downsizing government oversight of every aspect of your life.

Gotcha.

Have fun with that.
Well, hopefully when our economy implodes, we'll have folks like New Zealand had with enough sense to shut down the subsidies and get government out of everything. I doubt it. Hope is not an action plan.
In the meantime, I guess people haven't had enough government oppression and pain yet.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,174
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #157 on: April 06, 2017, 10:18:13 pm »
I got mini bars in all 4 bathrooms. I got coke in the powder room.

Wow @Frank Cannon .... your home has four bathrooms?!  Where do you live?

Offline Frank Cannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,097
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #158 on: April 06, 2017, 10:31:23 pm »
Wow @Frank Cannon .... your home has four bathrooms?!  Where do you live?

@Right_in_Virginia

In a house. Also the real estate agent said it had 4 and 1/2 baths on the listing. Don't forget about my coke room.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:33:00 pm by Frank Cannon »

Online bigheadfred

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,655
  • Gender: Male
  • One day Closer
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #159 on: April 06, 2017, 10:50:26 pm »
Well, hopefully when our economy implodes, we'll have folks like New Zealand had with enough sense to shut down the subsidies and get government out of everything. I doubt it. Hope is not an action plan.
In the meantime, I guess people haven't had enough government oppression and pain yet.

I don't know if anyone has proposed a fix and I am not going to read the whole thread. Here is mine.

Repeal obamacare. 100% repeal.

People should cancel their health insurance. And if they feel they must go with a cheap catastrophic plan.

Let people put all their premium money into a medical savings account. At the risk level they choose. Bank at zero interest or in a variety of investment plans.

That $5k, $10k, $15k premium expense goes into that account. It is your money. It can be withdrawn WITHOUT PENALTY for medical expenses. In 10-20-30-40 years, up in the range where people may be more likely to have a bad health problem, they have accumulated enough in that account to pay some or not all of the bill.

At retirement age the choice would be up to the person whither which will they decide what to do with it.

Stop paying insurance companies a premium  that disappears. We have to break the vicious pernicious cycle of insurance companies, the government, and medicians overcharging for services.

If the government wants in let people put their money there at a guaranteed rate of return. Say 10%.

I could keep talking but I think you get the idea. Screw the government. Screw the insurance companies. And screw the medical establishment. They are selling a big fat lie to people. People need to call them on their BS.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online bigheadfred

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,655
  • Gender: Male
  • One day Closer
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #160 on: April 06, 2017, 10:51:52 pm »
@Right_in_Virginia

In a house. Also the real estate agent said it had 4 and 1/2 baths on the listing. Don't forget about my coke room.

If peeing off the porch counts I have 3 bathrooms.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,977
  • Gender: Female
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #161 on: April 06, 2017, 11:07:45 pm »
@Right_in_Virginia

In a house. Also the real estate agent said it had 4 and 1/2 baths on the listing. Don't forget about my coke room.

Ah, a room full of Coca-Cola memorabilia (trying to help you out Frank). Coke.  It's the real thing!


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LsAbJYZtw

Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Frank Cannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,097
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #162 on: April 06, 2017, 11:20:24 pm »
Coke.  It's the real thing!

It sure is after a weekend bender.


Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #163 on: April 06, 2017, 11:21:08 pm »
Ah, a room full of Coca-Cola memorabilia (trying to help you out Frank). Coke.  It's the real thing!


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LsAbJYZtw

Wrong coke. Frank is a good host.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,467
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #164 on: April 06, 2017, 11:22:21 pm »
That's actually not a response to the point I made, but I'll address it anyway.

Your argument is "the Democrats will just undo it when they get power anyway."  But that argument applies just as much if we somehow managed to repeal the whole thing.  They'd just re-enact it or pass something even worse when they got power again.  So we might as well not do anything because the left will just undo it.  That seems to be the only conclusion to be drawn from your post.

I cannot fight your geometric logic.  The field is yours.  Have at it.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #165 on: April 06, 2017, 11:25:30 pm »
Ah, a room full of Coca-Cola memorabilia (trying to help you out Frank). Coke.  It's the real thing!


Somehow, the video I'm thinking of when correlating Frank and his Coke Room is a bit more along these lines:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pl52xo0ox8
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,977
  • Gender: Female
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #166 on: April 06, 2017, 11:47:05 pm »
Somehow, the video I'm thinking of when correlating Frank and his Coke Room is a bit more along these lines:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pl52xo0ox8

Ya ... I got that...trying to keep Frank out of the slammer.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Frank Cannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,097
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #167 on: April 06, 2017, 11:50:08 pm »
Ya ... I got that...trying to keep Frank out of the slammer.

Don't panic. No point in keeping high priced lawyers on retainer and not using them.

Silver Pines

  • Guest
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #168 on: April 07, 2017, 12:00:31 am »
I got mini bars in all 4 bathrooms. I got coke in the powder room.


@Frank Cannon






Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #169 on: April 07, 2017, 12:11:40 am »
Well, we ARE talking about health care here, and medicinal usage would of course come under that umbrella for fine folks like Frank here.

And since we are discussing government subsidy for the aforementioned, I wonder if they will be liberal-enough in their allotments for self-medicine subsidies to keep Frank's powder room, well... fully powdered.... you know - to keep health care costs down.

I can hear the campaign mudslinging in the future: 'Don't vote for the Republican, THEY will cut your coke benefits!'  Hollywood will surely riot if that subsidy is threatened.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMK6lzmSk2o
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 12:13:44 am by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,982
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #170 on: April 07, 2017, 01:14:40 am »
I don't know if anyone has proposed a fix and I am not going to read the whole thread. Here is mine.

Repeal obamacare. 100% repeal.

People should cancel their health insurance. And if they feel they must go with a cheap catastrophic plan.

Let people put all their premium money into a medical savings account. At the risk level they choose. Bank at zero interest or in a variety of investment plans.

That $5k, $10k, $15k premium expense goes into that account. It is your money. It can be withdrawn WITHOUT PENALTY for medical expenses. In 10-20-30-40 years, up in the range where people may be more likely to have a bad health problem, they have accumulated enough in that account to pay some or not all of the bill.

At retirement age the choice would be up to the person whither which will they decide what to do with it.

Stop paying insurance companies a premium  that disappears. We have to break the vicious pernicious cycle of insurance companies, the government, and medicians overcharging for services.

If the government wants in let people put their money there at a guaranteed rate of return. Say 10%.

I could keep talking but I think you get the idea. Screw the government. Screw the insurance companies. And screw the medical establishment. They are selling a big fat lie to people. People need to call them on their BS.
Fred, what we had done until Obamacare eliminated the option was get a 5K deductible policy (per event) put the max allowable in a HSA, and pay medical bills out of the HSA. The surplus stayed in the HSA and grew at money market rates.
Obamacare caused my insurance carrier (a major multiline insurance company) to quit offering health policies. That was the end of that after 20 years. I still have the remnants of the HSA after three 'day' surgeries.
I agree with your idea, and think it is especially workable for young folks who will, on balance, be able to bank the deductible pretty fast at 5 or even 10K in case something major happens, and found this to be an economical approach that didn't load up the insurance and payment processing system with relatively minor claims, but instead allowed for direct billing of the patient and direct payment.

To me, this is a sane approach that doesn't address Medicaid but may be a ticket out of that for low income families. As for Medicare, that was supposed to be paid for out of the FICA withholding and/or estimated taxes paid by the self-employed, much like Social Security.

That (Social Security and Medicare), too, will have to be addressed, but people within a few years of that or who are currently counting on a system they have paid into their whole lives for an often significant portion of retirement income will have to be allowed to continue in the program. For younger people and especially those entering the workforce, a different deal will have to be cut.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hondo69

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,673
  • The more I know the less I understand
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #171 on: April 07, 2017, 12:53:26 pm »
Bill Of Rights

Tenth Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Offline GrouchoTex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,384
  • Gender: Male
Re: Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus
« Reply #172 on: April 07, 2017, 05:37:08 pm »
 :amen: