Author Topic: Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.  (Read 45314 times)

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Offline EdJames

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You raise a point here that I really think needs to be addressed (probably even make it a chapter in my book....)  There's been this myth propagated that the Founders wouldn't compromise, it was all or nothing, etc.  That's complete hogwash.  The Founders signed the Declaration knowing they might lose the war, but also believing they had a good chance to win.  If it would have gotten to the point where defeat was inevitable, and further fighting would just have cost the lives of soldiers, they'd rightfully have surrendered.  Patrick Henry aside, they weren't aiming for martyrdom.  They were aiming for victory.

And look at how we actually fought that war.  Washington didn't follow some idiotic "no retreat" directive.  For much of the war, his immediate tactical goal was to simply keep an army in the field, not win battles.  One of his best moves as a general was escaping New York in August 1776.  Less than two months after the Declaration was signed, Washington abandoned New York when surrounded by the British.  He gave up a critical city, but did so because he wanted to preserve his army.  Some here would no likely have denigrated him as a moral coward for refusing to fight to the bitter end to save New York.  Some back then actually did.  But had he stayed and fought with a "no retreat" mindset, his entire army would have been bagged, and the Revolution over.

In the south, we pretty much lost every important battle for a good stretch.  Our best general was Nathanael Greene, and it was his strategy that led to the victory at Yorktown.  But he actually lost every pitched battle he fought.  He had a brilliant strategic plan, never stopped nipping at the heels of the British, and eventually compelled them to retreat through strategic maneuver.

The point is that in a war, you cannot insist on always attacking/never retreating.  You have to fight hard, but also fight smart.  Know when to attack, when to push your advantage, and when to take what you can get and not leave yourself open to a counterattack by getting too greedy.  That was part of the genius of Washington at Trenton and Princeton.  He attacked, did his damage, and then retreated before getting cutoff.  The absolutists -- and there were some of those back then -- criticized him for not pushing his advantage harder and launching a general attack.  But he did the right thing in grabbing those victories and not risking too much.

My point is that we are essentially in a war right now with the left, and to win, it is not enough to just be principled and fight hard.  We must also fight smart.  It means fighting tough rear-guard actions when we lose, like we did in 2008.  And it means taking victories whenever we can, even if they are not as complete and overwhelming as we might like.  The "give me everything, or nothing at all" mentality will doom us to certain defeat, just as certainly as it doomed the entire German Sixth Army when Hitler issued his asinine "no retreat" order for Stalingrad.

We cannot confuse disagreements on strategy/tactics, with disagreements on principles.  Most (not all, obviously) of us here are pretty staunch conservatives, and would like to bring the country to a much better place, which means much less government interference and control in our lives.  Where we disagree is how best to get from here, to there.  And it would be a real tragedy if we left that kind of disagreement divide us to the point where we are unable to achieve anything.

You, sir, are a Treasure. 

It would be beneficial for all involved to read your post.  Read it again.  Think about the implications of your words.  And read it again.

Offline txradioguy

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The point is that in a war, you cannot insist on always attacking/never retreating

Patton and MacArthur would beg to differ with you on that.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline driftdiver

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Patton and MacArthur would beg to differ with you on that.

Umm the Philippines?  Korea?
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Offline XenaLee

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But its ok to charge a young person more than their share?  Simply to make up for the older people who tend to get sick more often?

How about using the free market and get the govt out of the picture.   reduce some regulations.   Put a limit on lawyers and the liability healthcare providers have to contend with.

Of course it's not ok.   When did I ever indicate otherwise?
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Offline txradioguy

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Umm the Philippines?  Korea?

Mac had to be given a direct order by FDR to vacate to Australia and was fired by Truman for refusing to pull back.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline INVAR

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The point is that in a war, you cannot insist on always attacking/never retreating.  You have to fight hard, but also fight smart.  Know when to attack, when to push your advantage, and when to take what you can get and not leave yourself open to a counterattack by getting too greedy.

My point is that we are essentially in a war right now with the left, and to win, it is not enough to just be principled and fight hard.  We must also fight smart

You are arguing politics.  Not war.  This is not being fought as a war.  Not even in the allegory sense from "our side".   The only folks on our side of the ideological aisle who may see this as a war are apparently the FC who are actually willing to do what they said and refuse to compromise with what would have essentially made ObamaCare Trumpcare.  A refusal which you have repeatedly opined is stupid and foolish.  Contrary to what you attempted to suggest, tyranny was not overcome by protracted negotiations that ceded to the tyranny of the crown in incremental measures and granted the rule of tyranny over the colonies as legitimate.

The Left, yes - the Left is at war - their Glorious Peoples Revolution.  They are willing to lie, cheat, steal, swindle, deceive, burn, riot,  kill and subjugate whomever they need to in order to achieve their ends.  Your side - the GOP - they are busy playing 'politics' and vying for the largest piece of the pie that the Left is able to achieve for them.  They cannot and will not even call evil, tyranny, Marxism, Communism or sin what they are.  They are too busy learning to get along with it and coercing their constituents to accept it. 

I can find no historical example of a society ever overcoming imposed tyranny, either creeping or sudden - or tyranny ever being rescinded via civil means.  None.

But you, like so many others refuse to even call this abomination foisted on us via corruption as tyranny.  We can argue whether or not this is a soft or hard tyranny - but it is tyranny nonetheless.   This post- Constitutional democracy has made such tyranny legitimate and that is the starting point for all these 'compromises' we are told we have to make.

In a 'democracy' a people will always vote themselves into slavery by empowering tyranny.  As such, this "democracy" that we have devolved ourselves into was only ever going to last as long as the plundered national treasury, was solvent.  Imposing tyranny therefore is the object necessary to continue that plunder even after it has been completely depleted.

You are arguing from a point of politics as if the ACA is not tyranny - but just another random piece of legal legislation that is unpopular.  I consider that idea ceding the entire cause of liberty itself by accepting the premise that this particular imposition of tyranny is legal.  With the precedent now standing - more overt forms of tyranny that you will end up actually recognizing and feeling will also be made 'legal', making any resistance to such tyranny declared to be treason.  A little leaven, leavens the entire lump.

Corruption and lies, forged to pass tyranny in the middle of the night - or without consent upon a people is not something that is overturned by the rules that tyrants have usurped and corrupted for themselves in order to evince the designs to subjugate the people under absolute despotism.

Resisting them and refusing to bend is our duty.  Otherwise we are just going along with tyranny to eek out what liberty remains until the next time we are told to compromise.

We cannot confuse disagreements on strategy/tactics, with disagreements on principles.
That is exactly what your position demands.  Your strategy is to surrender principles and promises for the sake of supposedly advancing them in small increments against a people and party who hate our principles with every fiber of their being and are at war with those principles for the purpose of eradicating them.

If as you assert, the Liberals, Democrats and Moderates who want Obamacare to remain are the largest bloc and the FC has no voice or power to engender repeal - then there is nothing lost with them standing their ground and refusing to be seen as reneging on their promise to repeal.  Let them come to the FC to compromise their positions.

But no.  All the talk of compromise is aimed at the FC, which tells me all I need to know.

Where we disagree is how best to get from here, to there.  And it would be a real tragedy if we left that kind of disagreement divide us to the point where we are unable to achieve anything.

We have spent the last 30 years following the advice of surrender, retreat, regroup and negotiate with the Left.  I'm done supporting olive branch petitions. 

We have already lost the entire culture of the country by following that advice and watched the Federal Beast grow beyond the constraints of the rule of law.  The foundational principles that once united us as a people are hated and rejected by more than half the population and they want a government that is their god.

We lost because we would not fight.  We lost the culture because we refused to call things what they were and no longer recognized that the very ideas anathema to the existence of liberty and the civil society were being embraced by our own people under the lies we bought from the enemy about tolerance and compromise.  We willfully ignored it, laughed at it and then compromised with it in 'good faith'.

If the GOP and Trump do not repeal ObamaCare - then they simply sign their names to the entire Obamination and own Government-Run Healthcare as their own.  Single Payer will indeed be imposed by the necessity of the entire system collapsing as a result of what ObamaCare has done, and is doing to healthcare itself - by design.  The AHCA was never going to stop what ObamaCare started and making health insurance an inviolable 'right' to have is absurd.  I imagine the 'right' to food, a job, housing and free internet for everyone is next on the agenda.

Repeal in full.  Sunset it.  Work to empower the private sector to take up the mantle and educate the people about the personal responsibility they need to take for themselves.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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We didn't have a free market before ACA. 

Health co-ops exist.  One I know of charges $300 per person regardless of age.  They manage it.  Of course they don't have huge profits and bonuses for executives.

Well, I really can't address an unnamed co-op without knowing their membership and details.  But if they were that obvious a solution, they'd have taken over the market before ObamaCare.  They didn't.

Anyway, in your co-op, the young people are paying much more than they are getting in benefits, and the older people are paying much less.  That particular group of young people may be willing to join a co-op in which they're paying more than they need to, but most won't.


Online Maj. Bill Martin

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The point is.... without government interference.... the system we HAD was fair.   I challenge you to find an instance or proof of an insurer charging someone over 60 five times what they charged a 40 year old for basic healthcare coverage under that "individual market" before ObamaCare. 

I literally just posted a story from 2009, pre-Obamacare, a 27 year old was charged $117/month for a policy, and a 60 year old was charged $735/month for the exact same policy.  Did you not see it?

Maybe your personal experience was with employer-based insurance, which involves groups that don't vary premiums by age.  But policies for the individual market, pre-ObamaCare, absolutely charged far more older people than for younger.  Why else would the ACA (and now the AHCA) have needed to put in those 3/5 times limits in if it wasn't happening at all?

Heck, if you don't think it would happen, then you shouldn't care about the AHCA putting in that artificial limit because insurers wouldn't do it anyway.

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Mac had to be given a direct order by FDR to vacate to Australia and was fired by Truman for refusing to pull back.

Philippines aside (where MacArthur did retreat),  MacArthur repeatedly ordered retreats and consolidations of his own volition -- without any order from Truman -- when the NK's first invaded the South in June 1950. 

What you're apparently referring to is the subsequent Chinese intervention in late November 1950, and frankly, MacArthur screwed the pooch so massively with his over-aggressiveness that he should have been relieved right then.  The entire Eighth Army engaged in the "Big Bug-Out", and X Corps was spared from annihilation only because the First Marine Division managed a rather miraculous fighting retreat after MacArthur's staff had written them off.

In any case, MacArthur's handling of the Korea campaign is a classic example of what happens when someone gets overconfident, and pushes for too much.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 02:02:14 am by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Jazzhead

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It is tyranny.... or soft tyranny.... when government rams down our throats something so unpopular that most Americans are against it (like with ObamaCare).  What the hell else would it be???

No!  It's not tyranny because we have the means to change it!   We have a Republican Congress and a Republican President.   If we cannot unify and change it,  where's the tyranny?  It's our own damn fault. 
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Offline INVAR

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No!  It's not tyranny because we have the means to change it!   

I do not expect you to recognize tyranny because you advocate for tyranny.

But as an historical fact - tyranny is only changed by uncivil means, because tyrants are not phased by civility, only the threat and use of force.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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... tyranny was not overcome by protracted negotiations that ceded to the tyranny of the crown in incremental measures and granted the rule of tyranny over the colonies as legitimate.

The Left, yes - the Left is at war - their Glorious Peoples Revolution.  They are willing to lie, cheat, steal, swindle, deceive, burn, riot,  kill and subjugate whomever they need to in order to achieve their ends.  Your side - the GOP - they are busy playing 'politics' and vying for the largest piece of the pie that the Left is able to achieve for them.  They cannot and will not even call evil, tyranny, Marxism, Communism or sin what they are.  They are too busy learning to get along with it and coercing their constituents to accept it. 

>snip <
But you, like so many others refuse to even call this abomination foisted on us via corruption as tyranny.  We can argue whether or not this is a soft or hard tyranny - but it is tyranny nonetheless.   This post- Constitutional democracy has made such tyranny legitimate and that is the starting point for all these 'compromises' we are told we have to make.

In a 'democracy' a people will always vote themselves into slavery by empowering tyranny.  As such, this "democracy" that we have devolved ourselves into was only ever going to last as long as the plundered national treasury, was solvent.  Imposing tyranny therefore is the object necessary to continue that plunder even after it has been completely depleted.

You are arguing from a point of politics as if the ACA is not tyranny - but just another random piece of legal legislation that is unpopular.  I consider that idea ceding the entire cause of liberty itself by accepting the premise that this particular imposition of tyranny is legal.  With the precedent now standing - more overt forms of tyranny that you will end up actually recognizing and feeling will also be made 'legal', making any resistance to such tyranny declared to be treason.  A little leaven, leavens the entire lump.

Corruption and lies, forged to pass tyranny in the middle of the night - or without consent upon a people is not something that is overturned by the rules that tyrants have usurped and corrupted for themselves in order to evince the designs to subjugate the people under absolute despotism.

Resisting them and refusing to bend is our duty.  Otherwise we are just going along with tyranny to eek out what liberty remains until the next time we are told to compromise.
That is exactly what your position demands.  Your strategy is to surrender principles and promises for the sake of supposedly advancing them in small increments against a people and party who hate our principles with every fiber of their being and are at war with those principles for the purpose of eradicating them.

If as you assert, the Liberals, Democrats and Moderates who want Obamacare to remain are the largest bloc and the FC has no voice or power to engender repeal - then there is nothing lost with them standing their ground and refusing to be seen as reneging on their promise to repeal.  Let them come to the FC to compromise their positions.

But no.  All the talk of compromise is aimed at the FC, which tells me all I need to know.

We have spent the last 30 years following the advice of surrender, retreat, regroup and negotiate with the Left.  I'm done supporting olive branch petitions. 

We have already lost the entire culture of the country by following that advice and watched the Federal Beast grow beyond the constraints of the rule of law.  The foundational principles that once united us as a people are hated and rejected by more than half the population and they want a government that is their god.

We lost because we would not fight.  We lost the culture because we refused to call things what they were and no longer recognized that the very ideas anathema to the existence of liberty and the civil society were being embraced by our own people under the lies we bought from the enemy about tolerance and compromise.  We willfully ignored it, laughed at it and then compromised with it in 'good faith'.

If the GOP and Trump do not repeal ObamaCare - then they simply sign their names to the entire Obamination and own Government-Run Healthcare as their own.  Single Payer will indeed be imposed by the necessity of the entire system collapsing as a result of what ObamaCare has done, and is doing to healthcare itself - by design.  The AHCA was never going to stop what ObamaCare started and making health insurance an inviolable 'right' to have is absurd.  I imagine the 'right' to food, a job, housing and free internet for everyone is next on the agenda.

Repeal in full.  Sunset it.  Work to empower the private sector to take up the mantle and educate the people about the personal responsibility they need to take for themselves.
People are comparing this to the land war of the Revolution. It had those who were content to live in servitude to the Crown, to continue in chains, and it had its Benedict Arnold, too.
 
While terrain was ceded in delaying battles, and in some the Colonial Armies prevailed, the army survived to fight another day, and eventually prevail. That war was not one of real estate so much as one of attrition, and a matter of surviving to gain the support of the skeptics in Europe who could assist with the war for their own motives. Why send assistance to a force that might not exist by the time the ships arrived?
Franklin, et. al. achieved much through diplomacy to gain the necessary implements of war and the blocking force which kept Cornwallis' forces from evacuating by sea, but in the meantime, Washington, Marion, and others had to keep the dream alive by not surrendering their principles, even as they ceded territory and only won occasional victories.

Had they not stood fast upon those principles, the military actions would have been moot.

This is a war of principles, which unlike terrain are far more difficult to retake, because they do not occupy a fixed point on the globe, but reside within the hearts and minds of every individual. Such 'terrain' once surrendered, once rationalized to the enemy side, is difficult to regain indeed, where the first ramparts to be overcome are the rationalizations of those who have accepted even a little bondage rather than fight.

It is far tougher to retake than mere real estate, and is lost or gained often without firing a shot, fought over with little fear for life or limb.

The time is long past, but those of us who have long warned of this situation find ourselves once again trying to dissuade those who claim they oppose creeping statism, this time, the ACA (who would never have argued before that this legislation should even have existed as law) from keeping it--any of it.

There are no bombs bursting, no wrecked towns, burned crops, slaughtered livestock or displaced multitudes as a result of this legislation. Instead that battlefield of principles is littered with the withered spiritual husks of patriots who have become something less, who demand less than the full measure of Liberty which is their birthright and should be their goal.

For those who remain, and those who wish to join us in fighting this and other usurpations of our rights and powers, that spiritual battlefield cannot be ceded. There can be no retreat from the principles we hold, any more than the Colonial Army's leaders whom we revere retreated from their principles and their ultimate goal, even as they maneuvered on the map.

The one who sold out and turned coat is recalled with revulsion, and has been mentioned here, his name carved from the wall of the chapel at West Point, despite his great generalship in the Colonial cause (and shabby treatment at the hands of politicians, likely a factor in his defection).

The comparison is not with Washington, not even with Lee, but with more Chamberlain and Churchill.

Will we be remembered as those who stood and fought? or those who proclaimed "Peace in our time", even as  they were betrayed.
 
The choice, the battlefield, the hearts and minds are individually ours first, to be retained at all costs without compromise of principle, to be recaptured when the ability to reason and the spirit of freedom can be revived, but never lightly surrendered.
 
If people will give in and submit in such a war of words, what hope for a future when even more may be required?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

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People are comparing this to the land war of the Revolution. It had those who were content to live in servitude to the Crown, to continue in chains, and it had its Benedict Arnold, too.
 
While terrain was ceded in delaying battles, and in some the Colonial Armies prevailed, the army survived to fight another day, and eventually prevail. That war was not one of real estate so much as one of attrition, and a matter of surviving to gain the support of the skeptics in Europe who could assist with the war for their own motives. Why send assistance to a force that might not exist by the time the ships arrived?
Franklin, et. al. achieved much through diplomacy to gain the necessary implements of war and the blocking force which kept Cornwallis' forces from evacuating by sea, but in the meantime, Washington, Marion, and others had to keep the dream alive by not surrendering their principles, even as they ceded territory and only won occasional victories.

Had they not stood fast upon those principles, the military actions would have been moot.

This is a war of principles, which unlike terrain are far more difficult to retake, because they do not occupy a fixed point on the globe, but reside within the hearts and minds of every individual. Such 'terrain' once surrendered, once rationalized to the enemy side, is difficult to regain indeed, where the first ramparts to be overcome are the rationalizations of those who have accepted even a little bondage rather than fight.

It is far tougher to retake than mere real estate, and is lost or gained often without firing a shot, fought over with little fear for life or limb.

The time is long past, but those of us who have long warned of this situation find ourselves once again trying to dissuade those who claim they oppose creeping statism, this time, the ACA (who would never have argued before that this legislation should even have existed as law) from keeping it--any of it.

There are no bombs bursting, no wrecked towns, burned crops, slaughtered livestock or displaced multitudes as a result of this legislation. Instead that battlefield of principles is littered with the withered spiritual husks of patriots who have become something less, who demand less than the full measure of Liberty which is their birthright and should be their goal.

For those who remain, and those who wish to join us in fighting this and other usurpations of our rights and powers, that spiritual battlefield cannot be ceded. There can be no retreat from the principles we hold, any more than the Colonial Army's leaders whom we revere retreated from their principles and their ultimate goal, even as they maneuvered on the map.

The one who sold out and turned coat is recalled with revulsion, and has been mentioned here, his name carved from the wall of the chapel at West Point, despite his great generalship in the Colonial cause (and shabby treatment at the hands of politicians, likely a factor in his defection).

The comparison is not with Washington, not even with Lee, but with more Chamberlain and Churchill.

Will we be remembered as those who stood and fought? or those who proclaimed "Peace in our time", even as  they were betrayed.
 
The choice, the battlefield, the hearts and minds are individually ours first, to be retained at all costs without compromise of principle, to be recaptured when the ability to reason and the spirit of freedom can be revived, but never lightly surrendered.
 
If people will give in and submit in such a war of words, what hope for a future when even more may be required?

That was spectacular, and can be paraphrased by the following:

"...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Hoodat

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I literally just posted a story from 2009, pre-Obamacare, a 27 year old was charged $117/month for a policy, and a 60 year old was charged $735/month for the exact same policy.  Did you not see it?

Today, the 27-year-old is charged $300 for that policy, and the 60-year-old is charged $1200.  Except now their deductible is three times bigger.  But at least now the 60-year-old has maternity coverage.
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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Today, the 27-year-old is charged $300 for that policy, and the 60-year-old is charged $1200.  Except now their deductible is three times bigger.  But at least now the 60-year-old has maternity coverage.
And free contraceptives! Yippie!  :thud:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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No!  It's not tyranny because we have the means to change it!   

What means do we have to change the tyranny of Roe and Obergefell?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline EasyAce

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We have a Republican Congress and a Republican President.

Fat lot of good that did us the last time we had that . . .



All the last such triumvirate got us was the regime of His Excellency Al-Hashish Field Marshmallow Dr. Barack Obama
Dada, COD, RIP, LSMFT, Would-Have-Been Life President of the Republic Formerly Known as the United States. Based
on the early going, I don't even want to think about what this Republican Congress and this Republican President
are going to bequeath us.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 04:49:57 am by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline INVAR

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Fat lot of good that did us the last time we had that . . .



All the last such triumvirate got us was the regime of His Excellency Al-Hashish Field Marshmallow Dr. Barack Obama
Dada, COD, RIP, LSMFT, Would-Have-Been Life President of the Republic Formerly Known as the United States. Based
on the early going, I don't even want to think about what this Republican Congress and this Republican President
are going to bequeath us.

People have willfully short memories, because to recognize and admit certain truths, abolishes their need to make their party and their candidates their saviors and their Deliverers.

So today, because of the aforementioned, we have a lifelong New York Liberal Democrat, who is now the titular head of the Republican Party - AT WAR with Tea Party Conservatives whom he and the Establishment Oligarchy that also hates them, are threatening to get rid of because they did not support their version of ObamaCare, so they can make it into their own image and likeness.

BOTH parties want giant, behemoth central planning for government.  They just differ on who runs it and how.

Limited government Conservatives, have been triangulated for political elimination by their own party leadership and the Democrats whom they have an alliance with.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline EasyAce

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People have willfully short memories, because to recognize and admit certain truths, abolishes their need to make their party and their candidates their saviors and their Deliverers.

So today, because of the aforementioned, we have a lifelong New York Liberal Democrat, who is now the titular head of the Republican Party - AT WAR with Tea Party Conservatives whom he and the Establishment Oligarchy that also hates them, are threatening to get rid of because they did not support their version of ObamaCare, so they can make it into their own image and likeness.

BOTH parties want giant, behemoth central planning for government.  They just differ on who runs it and how.

Limited government Conservatives, have been triangulated for political elimination by their own party leadership and the Democrats whom they have an alliance with.

Yep. "Big government for me but not for thee" seems to be the Republican watchword.

And, as I used to say elsewhere for years to no avail, the road to Damnocratic hell is paved with Republican't good intentions.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Philippines aside (where MacArthur did retreat),  MacArthur repeatedly ordered retreats and consolidations of his own volition -- without any order from Truman -- when the NK's first invaded the South in June 1950. 

What you're apparently referring to is the subsequent Chinese intervention in late November 1950, and frankly, MacArthur screwed the pooch so massively with his over-aggressiveness that he should have been relieved right then.  The entire Eighth Army engaged in the "Big Bug-Out", and X Corps was spared from annihilation only because the First Marine Division managed a rather miraculous fighting retreat after MacArthur's staff had written them off.

In any case, MacArthur's handling of the Korea campaign is a classic example of what happens when someone gets overconfident, and pushes for too much.
Perhaps like the Marines we need to understand that there are times you have to 'attack in a different direction'.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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If people will give in and submit in such a war of words, what hope for a future when even more may be required?

Nobody is advocating submitting to the other side. They are advocating taking half a loaf rather than none.  Moving the ball in the right direction, even if it is not as far as you'd like, it not "submitting".

If you insist on all or nothing, you'll get nothing.  And sorry, but the only people who support that are defeatists who believe we've already lost.  In which case, you're no longer an ally of those who wish to keep fighting.


Online Hoodat

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They are advocating taking half a loaf rather than none.

No, they are advocating taking a third of a loaf while baking a few croissants for the other side with a brand new 'entitlement'.  What part of 'Repeal Obamacare' do you not get?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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-Ayn Rand-

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Perhaps like the Marines we need to understand that there are times you have to 'attack in a different direction'.

Amen.  The First Marine Division was lucky that it had O.P. Smith in command, who could see the stupidity of MacArthur and Almond's overly-aggressive plan, and so deliberately dragged his feet on the advance.  If he hadn't, the entire division would have been cutoff and annihilated.

But in this case, we're not even talking about a retreat at all.  We're talking about an advance.  It's not as far an advance as some would prefer, but it is certainly better than doing nothing, and much better than a retreat.

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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No, they are advocating taking a third of a loaf while baking a few croissants for the other side with a brand new 'entitlement'. 

What is the "brand new entitlement?"

Quote
What part of 'Repeal Obamacare' do you not get?

I get it.  I get it just fine.

The problem is that the moderates of the Tuesday Group don't get it, and they have the votes to stop it.  How do you propose getting around that?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 04:39:44 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline XenaLee

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No, they are advocating taking a third of a loaf while baking a few croissants for the other side with a brand new 'entitlement'.  What part of 'Repeal Obamacare' do you not get?

All of it, obviously.  We've been trying to drill that reality into their brains here at the forum for far too long now.  I think it's time to admit defeat and stop trying.  Either they are incapable of gleening the effing obvious... that the promise to repeal needs to be kept first....or they are unwilling to accept that truth.  Either way, it's a waste of time and energy.  (Like arguing with a leftie always is)
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.