Author Topic: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix  (Read 42887 times)

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Online roamer_1

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #300 on: March 28, 2017, 05:30:11 pm »
As I was saying....  Liberty, individualism, taking care of your own -- they all sound fine until you run up against a policy that causes somebody's mother to lose coverage.  We forget that at our political peril.


@r9etb

There are plenty right here on this board, on this very thread, that are now uninsured because of governmental interference.
THAT s what you forget at your peril.

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But again: the political realities are probably against this, because the implication is that after two years there are people who will be left with nothing.  The necessary political compromise would result in some measure to prevent that from happening -- some level of replacement, rather than outright repeal -- while at the same time reducing the scope of such replacement. 

Not gonna happen. All that is just weasel words. They promised repeal, they had better deliver. PERIOD.

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It would move the needle in our direction; but I still wonder if the Freedom Caucus could be persuaded to accept such a compromise.  I think a compromise of that sort could become effective in a couple of years.

They will accept a sunset of some short duration for the sake of repeal. I don;t think you can get them to leave a single vestige in place. Conservatives mean to keep their promises. Or they will not be re-elected.

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Whereas I think that insistence on "COMPLETE REPEAL" would probably help to ensure a Democrat majority in 2018 in at least one house.

Quite the other way around. Refusing to repeal will do so. Keep the bloody promise. Why is that so hard?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 05:31:47 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #301 on: March 28, 2017, 05:33:27 pm »
Kind of an ironic sentiment for those who resent the ACA mandate to purchase health insurance.   Death may well be the direct result of your exercise of foolish liberty.   

Newsflash: Death is the direct result of us being born.

The federal government should not force anyone to purchase anything.
The federal government was actually designed to do very little.
Sad that this truth is gone now.

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #302 on: March 28, 2017, 05:34:04 pm »
@r9etb

There are plenty right here on this board, on this very thread, that are now uninsured because of governmental interference.
THAT s what you forget at your peril.

Not gonna happen. All that is just weasel words. They promised repeal, they had better deliver. PERIOD.

They will accept a sunset of some short duration for the sake of repeal. I don;t think you can get them to leave a single vestige in place. Conservatives mean to keep their promises. Or they will not be re-elected.

Quite the other way around. Refusing to repeal will do so. Keep the bloody promise. Why is that so hard?

Exactly!   888high58888
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #303 on: March 28, 2017, 05:35:24 pm »
Right, because 'being nice' and placating Statists and Leftists has worked out so well in the recent past. I don't care how I am seen by men.

I call things what they are, and I fully expect to be hated for it.  In fact, I embrace it.

Maybe they should change the model on the crucifix....

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #304 on: March 28, 2017, 05:38:34 pm »
Maybe they should change the model on the crucifix....

Wow.   And it's usually rabid lefties that make lame and irrelevant Jesus comparisons.   :shrug:
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #305 on: March 28, 2017, 05:39:10 pm »
The government dug the hole I'm in. I suppose 'help' to me would look like them getting the hell out of my life. Or healthcare system, at least.

But everyone tells me thats impossible now. So I suppose I'm screwed.

What I think you're saying is that you cannot afford insurance in the current system.  I'm not sure what you do if/when you need to go to a doctor or need to fill a prescription, but without some sort of medical plan that's often prohibitive as well.

Any solution -- whatever form it may take -- ultimately has to result in medical care that doesn't bankrupt the patient.  I honestly don't know what that solution would look like, except that it probably doesn't bear much resemblance to the system that we have now.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #306 on: March 28, 2017, 05:39:50 pm »
It's always hard to take an unpopular stand.

@Sanguine

I don't think that's always true.  Taking an unpopular stand may make you unpopular with the majority, but it may make you wildly popular with a minority.  That may make it both very easy and very lucrative.  And I'm not saying that to imply base motives to those who take unpopular, but principled stands.  Just pointing out that guys like Levin, Limbaugh, etc., have made a very nice living, and have a great many fans, by stating opinions that are "unpopular" to the majority.  Heck, that's the whole premise off which a lot of cult leaders operate, right?  They want to be persecuted, because it is part of the "us v. them" image that is the core of being in a cult.

Point is, it may be hard to take an unpopular stand.  Then again, it may not be.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 05:54:10 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline r9etb

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #307 on: March 28, 2017, 05:48:04 pm »
Quite the other way around. Refusing to repeal will do so. Keep the bloody promise. Why is that so hard?

It's hard to keep promises that are a lot easier said than done.

As for the rest.... It seems as if you are not ready to accept the political reality of the situation.  The Freedom Caucus is barely 10% of the GOP majority.  No matter how excellent their principles, for situations in which those principles are not generally held they're never going to accomplish anything unless they enter the political deal-making process.  If they don't, then at best they're good only as spoilers, and at some point there won't be enough of them to even be that.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #308 on: March 28, 2017, 05:52:13 pm »
@r9etb

And over here on the right, we tend to focus on the practicalities and principles, and seem often to forget about the real people who will be affected, usually for the worse, if our ideas become law.  It's not that the principles are bad, it's just that we tend to demand sudden changes -- e.g., today you're covered, and tomorrow you're not.  Real people get hurt when that sort of thing occurs.

There's a middle ground, of sorts, where the people and practicalities should be considered at the same time, but it's a very delicate balancing act.  And yet that is where political compromise has to be found. 

I'm actually further to the right than you are on this, but you make a good point.  We have to be aware of how our actions/proposals are likely to be perceived, and adopt a strategy of persuasion  that will enable us to maintain a political majority to move where we want to go.  The "take it or leave it, you statist freaks" approach simply does not work because people are scared of major change.  You lose the next election, after which the left will continue its incremental march towards more statism.  That's basically been the approach from many on the right for a long time.

To the extent some of us want a far more laissez-faire society, that kind of legal reality is not going to pop up overnight, or as the result of a single election.  We have to take a step in that direction, show people that not only did the world not end, but it actually got better, and then take the next step.  If we do that well, we can maintain majorities and actually make our desired reality much more likely.

The Contract for America, which was generally a success, was not a overnight reversion to a minimalist government.  It consisted of reasonable steps acceptable to many people, and that were politically defensible.  Newt blew it politically later by making some stupid statements, but that general course of action was exactly what we needed then, and it's what we need now.

My difference with the hard-lines isn't in the desire to get from point A to point B.  The difference is in the appropriate strategy for actually getting there.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:13:35 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #309 on: March 28, 2017, 05:52:52 pm »
All very nice, but it does not account why an unbreathable atmosphere would be confined to the lungs of the firstborn. Adults and younger siblings should have been equally susceptible.


This is a problem caused by taking too literally what was said.   That the firstborn of Egypt were killed can only preclude others being killed if you insist on forcing it to mean that.   

Given that other's deaths may have been regarded as incidental to the deaths of those most prized in Egyptian society,   it is no surprise that Egyptian interests in it would focus primarily on the greatest and most powerful members of their society. 


I presume that Egypt,  like many other cultures since,   granted special status and privilege to the "first born"  as inheritors of their land and power.   It may very well be that the most prized real estate on the Nile was very nearly entirely the domain of the "first born"  while second sons would have lived elsewhere.   

The deaths of other,  lesser people (in Egyptian eyes)  would not provoke the same level of outrage as those of their primary society members.   Their deaths may very well have been ignored in light of what the Egyptians regarded as the worst aspect of the tragedy. 
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #310 on: March 28, 2017, 05:53:59 pm »
How gray the world must be bereft of the recognition of the supernatural.  :shrug:


There is much that is natural that is mind boggling.   It is no less so because we know that it is natural.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #311 on: March 28, 2017, 05:55:23 pm »
What I think you're saying is that you cannot afford insurance in the current system.  I'm not sure what you do if/when you need to go to a doctor or need to fill a prescription, but without some sort of medical plan that's often prohibitive as well.

Any solution -- whatever form it may take -- ultimately has to result in medical care that doesn't bankrupt the patient.  I honestly don't know what that solution would look like, except that it probably doesn't bear much resemblance to the system that we have now.

I pay out of pocket. Otherwise I avoid medical care.

There is no government solution for me that won't make me a hypocrite. So futile as it may be I'll aways insist on freedom from government interference here.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #312 on: March 28, 2017, 05:56:17 pm »
It's both literal and unliteral.

It took the firstborn.

Also took the others, but many Egyptians even today have a strange relation with their kids. The firstborn male is a little king. The rest are, well, spares, until you get to the youngest, who is another mini king. It's also in the Bible, if you look. Lots of stories about the firstborn sons. Lots of stories of lastborn sons (the light of their age). Bog all about the ones in the middle - think a grand total of two are mentioned despite an entire book being solely begats.

It's not our way. It is theirs.


Thank you.   It makes the same point I did in my previous message.
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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #313 on: March 28, 2017, 06:00:55 pm »
I pay out of pocket. Otherwise I avoid medical care.

There is no government solution for me that won't make me a hypocrite. So futile as it may be I'll aways insist on freedom from government interference here.

People with extremely high deductible also pay out of pocket, in addition to paying premiums.  The effect of not having insurance in the first place, at a cost that often exceeds peoples mortgage payments.

It's OK though...the theoreticians assure me everything will shake out, once the government fixes everything.  If only those darn conservatives would just get out of government's way.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:02:46 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #314 on: March 28, 2017, 06:03:17 pm »
People with extremely high deductible also pay out of pocket, in addition to paying premiums.  The effect of not having insurance in the first place, at a cost that often exceeds peoples mortgage payments.

It's OK though...the theoreticians assure me everything will shake out, once the government fixes everything.

Prolly TMI, but just my property tax alone with healthcare insurance policy premium(if I were to have any) would exceed 35k per year. Sans deductible.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #315 on: March 28, 2017, 06:03:48 pm »
Maybe they should change the model on the crucifix....

Maybe you might want to brush up on the scriptures:

"You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". - Matthew 10:22
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #316 on: March 28, 2017, 06:06:14 pm »
Maybe you might want to brush up on the scriptures:

"You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". - Matthew 10:22

This thread has had a way of shaking things out, hasn't it? **nononono*
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #317 on: March 28, 2017, 06:07:43 pm »
It's hard to keep promises that are a lot easier said than done.


It's only the hard promises that matter. That's when it means something to keep your word.
And I dunno how it is by you, but up in here, we set store by folks who keep their word. Nothing much matters more.

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As for the rest.... It seems as if you are not ready to accept the political reality of the situation. 

A GIANT part of this election is that repeal. My entire immediate family, with the exception of two houses (one an educator, one a LEO, Both with government guaranteed health insurance) got raped by Obamacare, and the raping continues. It is literally driving my brother and my sister into bankruptcy. I can only imagine it is much the same elsewhere.

That is the political reality. Five out of seven house destroyed, directly by Obamacare, and barely hanging on. They are never ever going to forgive it or forget it. And that is what Republicans are buying into by leaving it in place.

Quote
The Freedom Caucus is barely 10% of the GOP majority.  No matter how excellent their principles, for situations in which those principles are not generally held they're never going to accomplish anything unless they enter the political deal-making process.  If they don't, then at best they're good only as spoilers, and at some point there won't be enough of them to even be that.

Then you shouldn't need them to get your way. And it shouldn't be theirs in blame if they amount to so little. But they do. And they will tell you, keep your word. That is where it will start.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #318 on: March 28, 2017, 06:08:28 pm »
@roamer_1

One has to be careful of a certain normalcy bias = The concept of emancipation was a brand new thing in both England and the States. Something so vastly rooted in history has it's own sort of mass. It does not (cannot) be swept away in a day and an hour, once it is realized. Remember, there had never been a time without slavery prior to the West.

All I can liken it to is in myself - I am a Messianic Christian... And as much as I know my beliefs to be right, proven to be right in my own mind, it is a very hard thing for me to discount what I was raised with - What Christians have believed for so very long. It doesn't come easy, I'll tell you what... Even fully knowing, and full of conviction.

And that is but in a single mind... Extrapolate that into societal norms wrt slaves... How does an agrarian society replace that necessary manpower? It is no small thing.

I'm not criticizing the Founders for making that compromise.  I understand why they did.  I'm simply pointing out that it was a compromise, made because they didn't believe it was possible politically to achieve what (some of them) knew to be morally right.  And I'm making that point because some are denigrating "half-steps" here as being immoral compromises, and I'd suggest that compromising on something as morally offensive as slavery would be even worse.  But they did it because they knew it was the only way to increase net liberty.

And that increase in "net" liberty is an important distinction, because there are bad compromises, and good compromises.  The difference between the two is in relation to the status quo.  A bad compromise is one that makes us more statist than the status quo.  An example of that was Bush's prescription drug plan for seniors.  Yes, it was less liberal than Al Gore's, but it was still more statist than having no such plan at all, which was the status quo when Bush took office.

A good compromise is one that makes us less statist.  Welfare reform in the mid-1990's didn't eliminate welfare, but it did reduce it, and add some restrictions that didn't previously exist.  Now, the no-compromise crowd could criticize that and say "that just amounts to the GOP endorsing the welfare system that remained", but the net effect was nevertheless still positive.

Obviously, in making a "good" compromise, we always want to get as much as we can.  I just don't think we should reject even baby steps in our direction if the only realistic alternative is no steps at all.  Now obviously, people can disagree on what is truly possible politically.  But once it is clear what is possible, and what is not, we shouldn't refrain from making the best "good" deal that we can, even if it leaves something we detest still in place partially.

Because that's what the Founder did with slavery.  They surrendered Congress' right to eliminate the slave trade for 20 years, which certainly was immoral standing on it's own.  But they did end up eliminating the trade in 1808, which was a better result than if no country had been formed at all.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #319 on: March 28, 2017, 06:11:41 pm »
Maybe you might want to brush up on the scriptures:

"You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved". - Matthew 10:22

I don't need to -- that was the precise verse of which I was thinking.  The difference is that Jesus was referring to belief in him as a divine being.  You're applying that verse to taking political stances on a health care bill.

Being hated because you take a certain position on a health care bill is not a ticket to heaven.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #320 on: March 28, 2017, 06:13:38 pm »

There is much that is natural that is mind boggling.   It is no less so because we know that it is natural.   

But it all pales to nothing before that face of YHWH. Why stay in the shallow end of the pool?

Offline INVAR

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #321 on: March 28, 2017, 06:15:18 pm »
It's hard to keep promises that are a lot easier said than done.

As for the rest.... It seems as if you are not ready to accept the political reality of the situation.

And there it is again.

We must all accept the reality that Communism/Statism is now permanent and we must get used to it and compromise with it if we want a share in the spoils of government largesse.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #322 on: March 28, 2017, 06:17:12 pm »

Being hated because you take a certain position on a health care bill is not a ticket to heaven.

Being hated because I stand for the truth - whether biblical or political.

Truth is from God, period. 

It has nothing to do with getting a 'ticket' to heaven.

It has to do with standing in the gap and for the truth once delivered.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline r9etb

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #323 on: March 28, 2017, 06:20:25 pm »
It's only the hard promises that matter. That's when it means something to keep your word.
And I dunno how it is by you, but up in here, we set store by folks who keep their word. Nothing much matters more.

I dunno how it is by you, but over where I am, people who say they'll do things that they pretty obviously can't do .... we end up not believing their promises after a while.  "Repeal Obamacare" was one of those.  It sounds good as a slogan, but the political details matter, and they were never going to support keeping that promise -- not without compromise, anyway.

Quote
A GIANT part of this election is that repeal. My entire immediate family, with the exception of two houses (one an educator, one a LEO, Both with government guaranteed health insurance) got raped by Obamacare, and the raping continues. It is literally driving my brother and my sister into bankruptcy. I can only imagine it is much the same elsewhere.

That is the political reality. Five out of seven house destroyed, directly by Obamacare, and barely hanging on. They are never ever going to forgive it or forget it. And that is what Republicans are buying into by leaving it in place.

Then you shouldn't need them to get your way. And it shouldn't be theirs in blame if they amount to so little. But they do. And they will tell you, keep your word. That is where it will start.

That's true.  And a politically feasible solution would have laid the groundwork for getting rid of or replacing the aspects of Obamacare that have caused so much trouble.  Hell, just relaxing the regulations on what sorts of plans could appear on the exchanges would make things easier for your family and a lot of other families like yours.

But the truth is that Obamacare also addressed (badly) some issues that are widely perceived to be actual problems.  To do away with a system that purports to address those problems, without providing something that also addresses those problems, is what lost Ryan a fair number of "moderate" votes, and would lose the same votes in any similar legislation.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:22:43 pm by r9etb »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #324 on: March 28, 2017, 06:21:55 pm »
Being hated because I stand for the truth - whether biblical or political.  Truth is from God, period.

I don't think God has taken a position on the AHCA.  You have.  Hence, my initial reference to the crucifix.

Like it or not, we live in a democratic republic in which the votes of citizens determine the direction of the country.  If you actually enjoy being hated for either your opinions, or the way you choose to present them, then you are essentially enjoying losing on the issues about which you claim to care so much.

In other words, you'd rather be a martyr than actually achieve anything worthwhile.  And that, I believe, is a rather ugly form of pride.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:22:42 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »