Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix

[corbe]

Let me just say this to you @INVAR -

I am thankful to have you on this forum speaking truths that some are afraid to grasp.  Your knowledge and wisdom is much appreciated, and your ability to articulate truths that many of us believe and try to hold to is remarkable.

I have perhaps been too slow in embracing our heritage and fully understanding it, but I am there with you now!

THANK you!

   Indeed, a valuable asset to our Community, @musiclady (as you are too)
   Thank You @INVAR

   

[Rivergirl]

By appointing his son in law to a top position in his administration the president is acknowledging that the job is too big for him to do on his own.
How sad.

[DB]

   Indeed, a valuable asset to our Community, @musiclady (as you are too)
   Thank You @INVAR

 

@INVAR

I'll third that.

[corbe]

By appointing his son in law to a top position in his administration the president is acknowledging that the job is too big for him to do on his own.
How sad.

   Too late @Rivergirl, under the bus for him    *for the laughs from our favorite source huffpo**


Just imagine what Kushner’s daily schedule is going to be like:

9:00-9:30: “Fox and Friends” debrief.

9:30-10:00: Provide broadband internet service to entire nation.

10:00-11:00: Stop working on providing broadband internet service to entire nation to focus on just providing it to entire government first.

11:00-11:30: Elevensies.

11:30-1:00: Working lunch to solve the intractable Israel-Palestine peace process that adults in government have been working on to no avail for decades.

1:00-1:30: What do you mean there are other places in the Middle East that need tending to? FFS, people, I can’t possibly do everything!

1:30-2:00: Daily “I can’t possibly do everything” meeting with POTUS. POTUS reminds Kushner that the AHCA went down because he was off in Aspen, skiing.

2:00-2:15: Cancel all skiing vacations for the foreseeable future.

2:15-2:30: Search for another samovar of coffee to push through the rest of the afternoon.

2:30-3:30: Develop one “transformative project for America under the banner of Trump’s $1 billion infrastructure program.”

3:30-3:45: Meeting with POTUS to discuss “transformative project.” POTUS says there is still something missing.

3:45-4:15: WHAT IS IT MISSING? COME ON KUSHNER, THINK! YOU CAN DO THIS.

4:15-4:30: Trump’s name added to transformative project. POTUS signs off.

4:30-4:45: A brief wander through the White House. How did it come to this? Didn’t life used to be so much simpler? I could have done anything. I really would have liked to own the Dodgers. Oh, man, the crack of bat, fists pounding on leather, the scents of an afternoon ballgame? Heaven is a patch of well-manicured grass, the cheers of the crowd, fathers in the upper decks teaching their freckle-faced kids how to score the game, and nothing but the expanse of a hazy Southern California afternoon ahead of you. That should have been me. That’s what I was meant to do. How did I end up here? I only vaguely remember: My name, shouted in a certain dawn … a message … a summons … There must have been a moment, at the beginning, where I could have said – no. But somehow, I missed it.

4:45-6:00: Fix the VA system, the opioid crisis, streamline government, and maybe do some trade stuff?

6:00: Fifteen hours of weeping.

[Bigun]

Let me just say this to you @INVAR -

I am thankful to have you on this forum speaking truths that some are afraid to grasp.  Your knowledge and wisdom is much appreciated, and your ability to articulate truths that many of us believe and try to hold to is remarkable.

I have perhaps been too slow in embracing our heritage and fully understanding it, but I am there with you now!

THANK you!

@musiclady  @INVAR

   I try to read everything he posts and very rarely respond to any of it simply because I have no argument with it.

That is a failing on my part which I will henceforth try to correct.

[INVAR]

Wow guys..... @musiclady, @corbe, @DB, @Bigun ... thank you for the kind sentiments... you made me blush.

All thanks should go to Our Father - who blessed me with the friendship of Rev. Peter Marshall who fed my addiction to History with a focus on the foundation I was never taught in school, from the diaries and letters from the Founders themselves.  It was truly eye opening and still is.

[Sanguine]

Wow guys..... @musiclady, @corbe, @DB, @Bigun ... thank you for the kind sentiments... you made me blush.

All thanks should go to Our Father - who blessed me with the friendship of Rev. Peter Marshall who fed my addiction to History with a focus on the foundation I was never taught in school, from the diaries and letters from the Founders themselves.  It was truly eye opening and still is.

Yes, we do stand on the shoulders of giants, don't we?

[Bigun]

Wow guys..... @musiclady, @corbe, @DB, @Bigun ... thank you for the kind sentiments... you made me blush.

All thanks should go to Our Father - who blessed me with the friendship of Rev. Peter Marshall who fed my addiction to History with a focus on the foundation I was never taught in school, from the diaries and letters from the Founders themselves.  It was truly eye opening and still is.

@INVAR

My story is somewhat similar but not the same.  I never questioned what was written in the history books until I returned from my tour in Vietnam and saw how the media was reporting on the war.  I KNEW for sure that they were lying through their teeth about that so I began too wonder what else have I been lied to about.  50 years later I now know the answer to be that I had been lied to about almost everything and that STILL makes me very angry!

[Bigun]

Yes, we do stand on the shoulders of giants, don't we?

WE should be standing on them but aren't IMHO!

[INVAR]

Yes, we do stand on the shoulders of giants, don't we?

In comparison to us.... yes.

We may have a lot of tech and gadgets and an idle lifestyle of comforts with a standard of living the Founders could not even imagine, but it seems we have traded wisdom for knowledge and we no longer have use for the common sense that once governed these shores.

The warnings they wrote are ignored by our own peril - because I consider them prophetic given both the warnings from scripture to a blessed people, and the lessons of history when republics forget their heritage and go after populist ideals when the people become corrupted.

This one by John Adams is one that keeps coming back up in my mind as I glean the news and commentary:

"...a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever. When the People once surrender their share in the Legislature, and their Right of defending the Limitations upon the Government, and of resisting every Encroachment upon them, they can never regain it. - John Adams, Letter to Abigail July 7, 1775.

[Victoria33]

@skeeter  @Maj. Bill Martin
The problem, as I see it, is that neither Ryan nor Trump actually believe in righting the wrong of Obamacare and returning health care back to physicians and patients.  They WANT the government to control our lives.  So, Ryan is having a tough time as Speaker?  I shed no tears.  If he were a principled leader and believed that government health care was a bad thing (as any Republican or Conservative should), then he should have been able to hammer out a compromise with moderates and conservatives.  But he didn't. He didn't take the time to work out a good bill.  Trump made threats, and the FC didn't fold.
Putting the blame on the small band of conservatives is flawed.  The responsibility lies with both Ryan and Trump for making this mess.  NOT with Jim Jordan, who consistently fights for the things we elected him to do.

@musiclady

I've read what you and Bill Martin have said.  Some people have knee jerk reactions and say things like, "Ryan wanted Obamacare; kick him out.",  "It's the Freedom Caucus fault - they don't care if we keep Obamacare.", etc., etc.

My opinion is, Ryan should know the mind set of his people, including he should have known the principles of the Freedom Caucus.   He is with these people every day and not knowing the thinking of his people is a fatal flaw when trying to get something passed.  There were more Republicans not voting for it than there were Freedom Caucus Republican members.  That shows Ryan did not have the pulse of his people from the beginning of this bill.

It is possible both he and Trump thought a fast passed healthcare bill would bring glory to each of them. Certainly, Trump would have thought this, I have no doubt of that.  Maybe he sucked Ryan into that idea.  If that is the case, they thought the reluctant Republicans, including those in the Freedom Caucus would vote for it since it was a Republican bill.  Ryan would have known better, or should have known better, and if he didn't, then he isn't a good leader.  I can see Trump thinking his strong arm tactics would work, but Ryan, again, should have known better - he should know his people.

If Ryan is only going to take orders from Trump and not "teach" Trump he can't issue ultimatums and expect representatives of the people to bow down, then no decent bill for anything is going to pass.   You see, we have representatives who "represent", and those represented make contact and tell their representatives what they want done.  NO representative is going to go against the majority wishes of people in his district.  I think Trump sees them as business men who have freedom to do whatever they want.  They do not have such freedom and Trump doesn't know that - it would never occur to him as he makes any decision he wants at any time - that has been his life.

Ryan will fail unless he takes charge of listening and working with ALL his Republicans AS HE PUTS TOGETHER A BILL.  Every Republican needs to have "flesh" in the bill.  This presenting a bill and THEN trying to force votes for it, just will not work.

I'd like to be in Ryan's office and "teach" him some psychology on understanding others, as he seems not to know how to do that.  He simply cannot turn his back on those who have a different idea of conservative values, based on their constituents, than he does.  He will also need to stand up to Trump, not let Trump divert him onto Trump's latest fad of an idea, and I don't know that he is strong enough to do it.  With this latest disaster, which it is, Ryan has to do justice to all his Republicans in his next effort or suffer a greater disaster.  Two failures in a row would be devastating.

[Mesaclone]

He means the bible.

Wait...are you saying Jonah actually WAS inside a whale?

Or was it that 7.7 million species....times two...more if you count dinosaurs (LOL), actually fit into a boat with sufficient food and seaworthiness to survive not just a 40 day flood, but the ensuing decades and centuries of water saturated environment?

Of course its mythology. Its also full of beautiful philosophy, horrid examples of men painting god as a self-centered sadist, and a speckling of genuine historical events told with a powerfully slanted partiality. You know, like all foundational religious texts.


On the other hand, what the he!! does this have to do with healthcare?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

More evidence of exactly what I have been saying all along.  For most people, this is all just a big sports event where we can analyze why a team or player is not performing to our satisfaction, rather than recognizing this is about our lives and liberties that too many are willing to trade away in order to watch 'the game'.

Oh, right.  I mean, all I ever do on this forum is post sports analogies, and never treat these subjects with the seriousness they deserve.  I just view it as a sporting contest, and don't much care about liberty, or freedom, or limited government.  I just want to watch "the game."

The Founders demanded (to use the silly analogy) the 'perfect pitch': a unanimous declaration rather than attempt Independence piecemeal because they understood something we no longer comprehend today: you cannot stop tyranny via civil means, nor expect liberty to be respected a piece at a time. Liberty is all or nothing.

You know, you're right.  The Founders weren't people to compromise on the any principles of liberty -- it was all or nothing for them too!

Except for that whole slavery thing, of course.  Especially since a good many of those same Founders felt guilt, even at that time, about the morality of the practice.   It was not believed that slavery was morally irrelevant.  Certainly, enough of the Founders  knew it was wrong enough to include importation being eventually phased out.  But they didn't insist on abolition, or even on the immediate cessation of slave importation, because they knew they'd lose the votes.

Personally, I wouldn't consider keeping other human beings in bondage, to be bought, beaten, and sold as chattel, to be a "perfect pitch".  At best, I'd consider it a very ugly compromise, but a compromise necessary to achieve the great good of political freedom for everyone else in the colonies.

But hey, that's just me.

[Mom MD]

Wait...are you saying Jonah actually WAS inside a whale?

Or was it that 7.7 million species....times two...more if you count dinosaurs (LOL), actually fit into a boat with sufficient food and seaworthiness to survive not just a 40 day flood, but the ensuing decades and centuries of water saturated environment?

Of course its mythology. Its also full of beautiful philosophy, horrid examples of men painting god as a self-centered sadist, and a speckling of genuine historical events told with a powerfully slanted partiality. You know, like all foundational religious texts.

That may be your view of the Bible.  I do not see it as mythology. With God nothing is impossible. If you cannot believe the little things there is no way you can believe the big things.  I don't have to explain everything to believe.  However as a scientific document, its quite ground breaking.  Moses knew that light existed before the stars.  Job knew the earth was round.  Long before science proved these things. 

[DiogenesLamp]

Wait...are you saying Jonah actually WAS inside a whale?

Or was it that 7.7 million species....times two...more if you count dinosaurs (LOL), actually fit into a boat with sufficient food and seaworthiness to survive not just a 40 day flood, but the ensuing decades and centuries of water saturated environment?

Of course its mythology. Its also full of beautiful philosophy, horrid examples of men painting god as a self-centered sadist, and a speckling of genuine historical events told with a powerfully slanted partiality. You know, like all foundational religious texts.


On the other hand, what the he!! does this have to do with healthcare?

A funny thing happened on the way to Armageddon.  During the entire history of the inquisition,  they killed something like 65,000 people over a three hundred year period. 


The anti-religion communists killed 100 million in just a few decades.     


Whatever you think about the religious people,  all I can say is the atheist caused body count is a lot higher. 

[Mesaclone]

Oh, right.  I mean, all I ever do on this forum is post sports analogies, and never treat these subjects with the seriousness they deserve.  I just view it as a sporting contest, and don't much care about liberty, or freedom, or limited government.  I just want to watch "the game."

You know, you're right.  The Founders weren't people to compromise on the basic principles of liberty -- it was all or nothing for them too!

Except for that whole slavery thing, of course.  Especially since a good many of those same Founders felt, even at that time, guilt about the morality of the practice, so it wasn't as believed it was morally irrelevant.  Certainly, they knew it was wrong enough to include importation being eventually phased out.  But they didn't insist on abolition, or even on the immediate cessation of slave importation, because they knew they'd lose the votes.

Personally, I wouldn't consider keeping other human beings in bondage, to be bought, beaten, and sold as chattel, to be a "perfect pitch".  At best, I'd consider it a very ugly compromise, but a compromise necessary to achieve the great good of political freedom for everyone else in the colonies.

But hey, that's just me.

Again, what we're seeing here Bill...is the re-emergence of Moral Narcissism Syndrome. Its the disease that always walks Republicans out of power and into an electoral abyss. Its the deadly collaboration of arrogance and ignorance that annihilates compromise, disregards the equally deeply held beliefs of other conservatives and moderates, and casts every disagreement as a battle between good and evil. No gray...all black and white...and every view but their own is immoral. It blights reason and substitutes certitude where inquiry and agility better serve.

Put plainly, MNS is why the GOP can't govern when in power...and the only reason we survive as a party is because the Dems have become an Alt-left socialistic, self righteous, delusional collection of equally morally superior secularists...a mirror reflection of our own MNS's

[DiogenesLamp]

Oh, right.  I mean, all I ever do on this forum is post sports analogies, and never treat these subjects with the seriousness they deserve.  I just view it as a sporting contest, and don't much care about liberty, or freedom, or limited government.  I just want to watch "the game."

You know, you're right.  The Founders weren't people to compromise on the basic principles of liberty -- it was all or nothing for them too!

Except for that whole slavery thing, of course.  Especially since a good many of those same Founders felt, even at that time, guilt about the morality of the practice, so it wasn't as believed it was morally irrelevant.  Certainly, they knew it was wrong enough to include importation being eventually phased out.  But they didn't insist on abolition, or even on the immediate cessation of slave importation, because they knew they'd lose the votes.

Personally, I wouldn't consider keeping other human beings in bondage, to be bought, beaten, and sold as chattel, to be a "perfect pitch".  At best, I'd consider it a very ugly compromise, but a compromise necessary to achieve the great good of political freedom for everyone else in the colonies.

But hey, that's just me.

A lot of people are unaware that slavery was explicitly protected by the US Constitution.   Article IV, Section II to be precise. 

[r9etb]

Ryan will fail unless he takes charge of listening and working with ALL his Republicans AS HE PUTS TOGETHER A BILL.  Every Republican needs to have "flesh" in the bill.  This presenting a bill and THEN trying to force votes for it, just will not work.

That's a two-way street, though -- not for Ryan, necessarily, but between the Freedom Caucus types, and the "moderates," who are going to have to work together to get anything done. 

It's fun and easy to blame Ryan, but that's far too easy.  At most he can maybe mediate the deals between the various blocs within his own party.  The various sides have got to bend on their own, and I wonder if they're willing to do so.

[Mesaclone]

A funny thing happened on the way to Armageddon.  During the entire history of the inquisition,  they killed something like 65,000 people over a three hundred year period. 


The anti-religion communists killed 100 million in just a few decades.     


Whatever you think about the religious people,  all I can say is the atheist caused body count is a lot higher.

So you're argument is that your religious views are better than communism. Bravo, I agree.
As for how many have died in the name of religion over the course of the planet's history...well, its almost impossible to measure but its a near certainty that its higher than 100 million. For the record, I'm a long ways from being an Atheist so I won't disagree that Atheism is an empty and harmful concept.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

A lot of people are unaware that slavery was explicitly protected by the US Constitution.   Article IV, Section II to be precise.

But....I thought Liberty was "all or nothing"?

[r9etb]

But....I thought Liberty was "all or nothing"?

 

[Mesaclone]

That may be your view of the Bible.  I do not see it as mythology. With God nothing is impossible. If you cannot believe the little things there is no way you can believe the big things.  I don't have to explain everything to believe.  However as a scientific document, its quite ground breaking.  Moses knew that light existed before the stars.  Job knew the earth was round.  Long before science proved these things.

I DO believe the big things, and easily disregard the little ones. So apparently it IS possible. As a scientific document...well, that's moot because it clearly is not. As for what Moses knew...or Job...unless you spoke with him directly you've no idea. That said, people have always known that light existed as they see it all around them...that's what eyes do. Further, ancient mariners understood well that the earth was not flat.

God could do many things, that doesn't mean he DID do them. The two cases I cite are absurd...and my view god is that she is anything but absurd. Rational, coherent, all forgiving and loving...yes. Absurd, no.

[DiogenesLamp]

Again, what we're seeing here Bill...is the re-emergence of Moral Narcissism Syndrome. Its the disease that always walks Republicans out of power and into an electoral abyss.

No,  I rather think what walks them out of power is the constant assault against them by the New York Controlled Liberal Democrat media system that portrays them as the second coming of Cotton Mather.   


Smash that propaganda system and their actions would just look normal to most of the American people. 

Its the deadly collaboration of arrogance and ignorance that annihilates compromise,

There are some things on which you do not compromise.  Better to just lose outright.   

disregards the equally deeply held beliefs of other conservatives and moderates, 

"Moderates"  have no "deeply held beliefs".  That's why they are moderate.  Conservatives with deeply held beliefs generally agree on most issues. 

and casts every disagreement as a battle between good and evil.

And a lot of the time,  it is.   We have a hundred trillion dollars of unfunded liabilities.   At some point,  it is going to have very evil consequences.   All further debt weight added to that disaster is effectively condoning future evil.   

[Axeslinger]

@musiclady

I've read what you and Bill Martin have said.  Some people have knee jerk reactions and say things like, "Ryan wanted Obamacare; kick him out.",  "It's the Freedom Caucus fault - they don't care if we keep Obamacare.", etc., etc.

My opinion is, Ryan should know the mind set of his people, including he should have known the principles of the Freedom Caucus.   He is with these people every day and not knowing the thinking of his people is a fatal flaw when trying to get something passed.  There were more Republicans not voting for it than there were Freedom Caucus Republican members.  That shows Ryan did not have the pulse of his people from the beginning of this bill.

It is possible both he and Trump thought a fast passed healthcare bill would bring glory to each of them. Certainly, Trump would have thought this, I have no doubt of that.  Maybe he sucked Ryan into that idea.  If that is the case, they thought the reluctant Republicans, including those in the Freedom Caucus would vote for it since it was a Republican bill.  Ryan would have known better, or should have known better, and if he didn't, then he isn't a good leader.  I can see Trump thinking his strong arm tactics would work, but Ryan, again, should have known better - he should know his people.

If Ryan is only going to take orders from Trump and not "teach" Trump he can't issue ultimatums and expect representatives of the people to bow down, then no decent bill for anything is going to pass.   You see, we have representatives who "represent", and those represented make contact and tell their representatives what they want done.  NO representative is going to go against the majority wishes of people in his district.  I think Trump sees them as business men who have freedom to do whatever they want.  They do not have such freedom and Trump doesn't know that - it would never occur to him as he makes any decision he wants at any time - that has been his life.

Ryan will fail unless he takes charge of listening and working with ALL his Republicans AS HE PUTS TOGETHER A BILL.  Every Republican needs to have "flesh" in the bill.  This presenting a bill and THEN trying to force votes for it, just will not work.

I'd like to be in Ryan's office and "teach" him some psychology on understanding others, as he seems not to know how to do that.  He simply cannot turn his back on those who have a different idea of conservative values, based on their constituents, than he does.  He will also need to stand up to Trump, not let Trump divert him onto Trump's latest fad of an idea, and I don't know that he is strong enough to do it.  With this latest disaster, which it is, Ryan has to do justice to all his Republicans in his next effort or suffer a greater disaster.  Two failures in a row would be devastating.

There are no coincidences in politics....Ryan knew EXACTLY what he was doing.  He had/has zero intention of repealing Obamacare.  Trumps election was a big ol', "oh crap, how do we get the rubes to get off our ass about this now?!?"

[INVAR]

Of course its mythology.

If you want to believe that Liberty and the civil society we once had were built on 'mythology'... who am I to stop you? 

That mindset goes a great length to explain how a depraved culture can create new 'myths' to build society upon - such as infants in the womb being expendable for the sake of convenience; homosexuals should marry and grown men can self-identify as little girls to use their public bathrooms.  Those are the kind of 'myths' a society that considers the bible to be 'myth' create for themselves as a new morality to be imposed.

On the other hand, what the he!! does this have to do with healthcare?

Everything.  It means that this people look to government to be their god, their healer, their provider and arbiter of fairness and equality.

And those are the very ingredients of a society and culture that is enslaved to tyranny without a shred of liberty.  Except the license to engage in whatever their loins and flesh desire at the full cost of someone else that their god decides must pay for the consequences of.