Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@musiclady

This is where I disagree, Bill.   You are concluding that there are not enough votes in Congress to take the "preferred route," but the problem is that good leadership, President, Speaker, et al, would be at least trying to get the bill that the voters have been asking.... nay, begging...... for, since this debacle of Obamacare passed.

Some voters were asking for a total repeal.  A great many others wanted certain aspect of ObamaCare kept.  I've posted the polls, etc., previously.  We cannot keep deluding ourselves into believe that everyone who voted for a Republican wanted a full Obamacare repeal without preserving any elements of that.  It simply isn't true.

In terms of "at least be trying", there is an article posted that Ryan literally got on his knees to beg for a "yes" vote from a moderate who refused to vote for the bill because it was too conservative, and it didn't work. Guy still promised to vote "no".  There is zero chance that member was going to vote for an even more conservative complete repeal.    Four GOP Senators publicly announced that they wouldn't vote for a bill that didn't have some guarantees for continued funding of the Medicaid expansion.  That means no complete repeal getting through the Senate even if it gets through the House.  Portman was one of them, btw.

But I suppose there is no way for me or anyone else to actually prove it wouldn't pass, because someone can always argue "they should have tried harder".  So I'll just ask the same question again -- what if, after all the pressuring, begging, and cajoring, there simply aren't enough votes for a complete repeal?  What should the Freedom Caucus do then?

[musiclady]

Very well said.

Effective leaders make things happen. They DO NOT simply count votes and decide 'it can't be done'.

@skeeter  @Maj. Bill Martin

The problem, as I see it, is that neither Ryan nor Trump actually believe in righting the wrong of Obamacare and returning health care back to physicians and patients.  They WANT the government to control our lives.

So, Ryan is having a tough time as Speaker?  I shed no tears.  If he were a principled leader and believed that government health care was a bad thing (as any Republican or Conservative should), then he should have been able to hammer out a compromise with moderates and conservatives.  But he didn't.

He didn't take the time to work out a good bill.  Trump made threats, and the FC didn't fold.

Putting the blame on the small band of conservatives is flawed.  The responsibility lies with both Ryan and Trump for making this mess.  NOT with Jim Jordan, who consistently fights for the things we elected him to do.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@skeeter  @Maj. Bill Martin

The problem, as I see it, is that neither Ryan nor Trump actually believe in righting the wrong of Obamacare and returning health care back to physicians and patients.  They WANT the government to control our lives.

I understand and agree with that with respect to Trump, at least to some extent.  Although at this point, I think he'd sign anything Congress would pass.

But what's the basis for saying that Ryan wants government to control our lives, as opposed to just operating from a different understanding from you as to what actually can pass legislatively?  I see him as a guy who is attacked for not being sufficiently "conservative", when the truth is that he can count votes and know what has a chance of passing, and what doesn't.  His goal, generally, is to push the most conservative legislation he thinks can be passed.  That sometimes means that he's pushing stuff that isn't as conservative as others would prefer, but I see that more as realism than as a difference on policy preferences.

If he were a principled leader and believed that government health care was a bad thing (as any Republican or Conservative should), then he should have been able to hammer out a compromise with moderates and conservatives.  But he didn't.

What is the basis for saying that he should have been able to hammer out a compromise?  Those people in Congress all have strong egos, and their own priorities and constituents.  It isn't as easy to force them to vote a certain way as you are assuming, and sometimes, a compromise isn't possible.   Imagine if someone said "A good leader should be able to hammer out a compromise with Ted Cruz to get his support for increased Planned Parenthood funding."  Some deals just can't be done, and if there really was one there to be made, why hasn't the FC worked one out already with the moderates on their own?

He didn't take the time to work out a good bill.  Trump made threats, and the FC didn't fold.

Neither did the moderates.

You may get your wish with Ryan giving up the speakership, though I suspect you'd be even less happy with who would likely replace him.

[bigheadfred]

They have had time to see where and how they could fix obamacare, work out deals, and plan implementation.

What they all want is government control of healthcare.

And they will get it.

[INVAR]

They have had time to see where and how they could fix obamacare, work out deals, and plan implementation.

What they all want is government control of healthcare.

And they will get it.

That is the entire function and purpose of ObamaCare and the GOP knows and understands this - so massaging the mechanism to bring about Single Payer is all that is being argued about here.  The end-result is going to be what Mordor on the Potomac wants and the Dependent Class who sees government as god wants.

Conservative Constitutional Originalists are a minority.

The people want Statism and tyranny - and their representatives will deliver because it gives them power and control over our lives in ways not even Stalin was able to achieve over his people.

[musiclady]

I understand and agree with that with respect to Trump, at least to some extent.  Although at this point, I think he'd sign anything Congress would pass.

But what's the basis for saying that Ryan wants government to control our lives, as opposed to just operating from a different understanding from you as to what actually can pass legislatively?  I see him as a guy who is attacked for not being sufficiently "conservative", when the truth is that he can count votes and know what has a chance of passing, and what doesn't.  His goal, generally, is to push the most conservative legislation he thinks can be passed.  That sometimes means that he's pushing stuff that isn't as conservative as others would prefer, but I see that more as realism than as a difference on policy preferences.

If Ryan's goal were to pass the most conservative legislation he thinks could pass, he would have taken the time to work things out and not rammed through this Obamacare lite fiasco.

What is your basis for agreeing with his being reckless and trying to pass a very bad bill?

What is the basis for saying that he should have been able to hammer out a compromise?  Those people in Congress all have strong egos, and their own priorities and constituents.  It isn't as easy to force them to vote a certain way as you are assuming, and sometimes, a compromise isn't possible.   Imagine if someone said "A good leader should be able to hammer out a compromise with Ted Cruz to get his support for increased Planned Parenthood funding."  Some deals just can't be done, and if there really was one there to be made, why hasn't the FC worked one out already with the moderates on their own?

The basis for saying Ryan should have been able to hammer things out (again, with TIME) is HISTORY.  I doubt you believe that this is the first Congress with strong egos.  But Presidents and Speakers haven't always failed this miserably.  Trump is not a leader, nor is Ryan.  I like Ryan as a person, but he's just not strong enough to do what needs to be done.  He's the one in the driver's seat, not the FC.  They are not lunatic right wingers.  Jim Jordan is a thoughtful conservative.  I know that for a fact.  Ryan needed to take time and do it right.  Instead we got grandstanding and bullying from the President, and fecklessness from Ryan.

Neither did the moderates.

You may get your wish with Ryan giving up the speakership, though I suspect you'd be even less happy with who would likely replace him.

I'm not 'wishing' to replace Ryan.  I'm hoping he shows the character I thought he had and does what's right for America instead of what lines the pockets and increases the power of his fellow Congressmen and himself.

[bigheadfred]

They were all voted in on the strength of their character and what they would do for the good of the country.

They pinky promised.

[Mesaclone]

So many here are arguing as to why the perfect, conservative ideal, bill wasn't put forward on repeal and replace...while ignoring the fact that such a bill had zero chance of being passed. Ryan knew this. Trump knew this. Heck, the Freedom Caucus knew this.

Politics is the art of the possible, and what Ryan/Trump put forward was the most conservative bill POSSIBLE. It would have repealed Obamacare and cut tremendous amounts of money from the deficit, and started a phased process that would bring in cross-state insurance sales...and yes, it would have kept some things that many voters wanted such as allowing insurance to age 26 for children and medicaid funding for states. But given the makeup of congress and the votes available...this was clearly the most conservative option with ANY chance of passing. No amount of impassioned lobbying by the President/Speaker, no long period of negotiation and amendment, no long sessions of internal debates in closed halls...was going to produce anything more conservative that could pass. THIS was Reagan's 80% solution.

This was it. This was the last shot to repeal Obamacare...and replace it with the most conservative legislation possible. and the Freedom Caucus shot it down. So now, what we will get is sure to be neverending Obamacare with far more liberal ideas thrown at it to prop up its crumbling structure over the next decade until a Dem president wins an election and pushes for single payer.

The FC has ensured the victory of liberalism on the topic of Health Care...all in the name of holding out for what it believes SHOULD be rather than for what is actually possible. Dumb. Really, really dumb.

[geronl]

Bernie Sanders used the term "Medicare for all" for a reason to tout his socialist plan.... because Trump once proposed it as an idea

[skeeter]

So many here are arguing as to why the perfect, conservative ideal, bill wasn't put forward on repeal and replace...while ignoring the fact that such a bill had zero chance of being passed. Ryan knew this. Trump knew this. Heck, the Freedom Caucus knew this.

Politics is the art of the possible, and what Ryan/Trump put forward was the most conservative bill POSSIBLE. It would have repealed Obamacare and cut tremendous amounts of money from the deficit, and started a phased process that would bring in cross-state insurance sales...and yes, it would have kept some things that many voters wanted such as allowing insurance to age 26 for children and medicaid funding for states. But given the makeup of congress and the votes available...this was clearly the most conservative option with ANY chance of passing. No amount of impassioned lobbying by the President/Speaker, no long period of negotiation and amendment, no long sessions of internal debates in closed halls...was going to produce anything more conservative that could pass. THIS was Reagan's 80% solution.

This was it. This was the last shot to repeal Obamacare...and replace it with the most conservative legislation possible. and the Freedom Caucus shot it down. So now, what we will get is sure to be neverending Obamacare with far more liberal ideas thrown at it to prop up its crumbling structure over the next decade until a Dem president wins an election and pushes for single payer.

The FC has ensured the victory of liberalism on the topic of Health Care...all in the name of holding out for what it believes SHOULD be rather than for what is actually possible. Dumb. Really, really dumb.

Voters threw democrats out of congress and state houses in 94 and 2012 because of socialized medicine. 

In 2016 we even elected the deletente who promised to 'repeal on day one'.

We just need to turn the heat up a bit more is all. They are all replaceable & no one likes a shyster.

[corbe]

So many here are arguing as to why the perfect, conservative ideal, bill wasn't put forward on repeal and replace...while ignoring the fact that such a bill had zero chance of being passed. Ryan knew this. Trump knew this. Heck, the Freedom Caucus knew this.

Politics is the art of the possible, and what Ryan/Trump put forward was the most conservative bill POSSIBLE. It would have repealed Obamacare and cut tremendous amounts of money from the deficit, and started a phased process that would bring in cross-state insurance sales...and yes, it would have kept some things that many voters wanted such as allowing insurance to age 26 for children and medicaid funding for states. But given the makeup of congress and the votes available...this was clearly the most conservative option with ANY chance of passing. No amount of impassioned lobbying by the President/Speaker, no long period of negotiation and amendment, no long sessions of internal debates in closed halls...was going to produce anything more conservative that could pass. THIS was Reagan's 80% solution.

This was it. This was the last shot to repeal Obamacare...and replace it with the most conservative legislation possible. and the Freedom Caucus shot it down. So now, what we will get is sure to be neverending Obamacare with far more liberal ideas thrown at it to prop up its crumbling structure over the next decade until a Dem president wins an election and pushes for single payer.

The FC has ensured the victory of liberalism on the topic of Health Care...all in the name of holding out for what it believes SHOULD be rather than for what is actually possible. Dumb. Really, really dumb.

   The glass is always half full, @Mesaclone I just don't share your pessimism, It's just the first inning and we're only down 1-0.  Even if this crapfest was passed nothing was gonna happen right away and Lee, Cruz, Cotton would have $hit canned it in the Senate.  Get back to me in the 9th when we're down 12-2, then I'll admit your some kind of knowledgeable, physic.

[Sanguine]

So many here are arguing as to why the perfect, conservative ideal, bill wasn't put forward on repeal and replace...while ignoring the fact that such a bill had zero chance of being passed. Ryan knew this. Trump knew this. Heck, the Freedom Caucus knew this.

Politics is the art of the possible, and what Ryan/Trump put forward was the most conservative bill POSSIBLE. It would have repealed Obamacare and cut tremendous amounts of money from the deficit, and started a phased process that would bring in cross-state insurance sales...and yes, it would have kept some things that many voters wanted such as allowing insurance to age 26 for children and medicaid funding for states. But given the makeup of congress and the votes available...this was clearly the most conservative option with ANY chance of passing. No amount of impassioned lobbying by the President/Speaker, no long period of negotiation and amendment, no long sessions of internal debates in closed halls...was going to produce anything more conservative that could pass. THIS was Reagan's 80% solution.

This was it. This was the last shot to repeal Obamacare...and replace it with the most conservative legislation possible. and the Freedom Caucus shot it down. So now, what we will get is sure to be neverending Obamacare with far more liberal ideas thrown at it to prop up its crumbling structure over the next decade until a Dem president wins an election and pushes for single payer.

The FC has ensured the victory of liberalism on the topic of Health Care...all in the name of holding out for what it believes SHOULD be rather than for what is actually possible. Dumb. Really, really dumb.

Yeah, all that's great and all, but the fact is the CC didn't do it.  Other, "moderate" Rs did it.   Sorry the facts don't fit your meme.

[Jazzhead]

So many here are arguing as to why the perfect, conservative ideal, bill wasn't put forward on repeal and replace...while ignoring the fact that such a bill had zero chance of being passed. Ryan knew this. Trump knew this. Heck, the Freedom Caucus knew this.

Politics is the art of the possible, and what Ryan/Trump put forward was the most conservative bill POSSIBLE. It would have repealed Obamacare and cut tremendous amounts of money from the deficit, and started a phased process that would bring in cross-state insurance sales...and yes, it would have kept some things that many voters wanted such as allowing insurance to age 26 for children and medicaid funding for states. But given the makeup of congress and the votes available...this was clearly the most conservative option with ANY chance of passing. No amount of impassioned lobbying by the President/Speaker, no long period of negotiation and amendment, no long sessions of internal debates in closed halls...was going to produce anything more conservative that could pass. THIS was Reagan's 80% solution.

This was it. This was the last shot to repeal Obamacare...and replace it with the most conservative legislation possible. and the Freedom Caucus shot it down. So now, what we will get is sure to be neverending Obamacare with far more liberal ideas thrown at it to prop up its crumbling structure over the next decade until a Dem president wins an election and pushes for single payer.

The FC has ensured the victory of liberalism on the topic of Health Care...all in the name of holding out for what it believes SHOULD be rather than for what is actually possible. Dumb. Really, really dumb.

Mesaclone, kudos for speaking the truth.   We have met the enemy, and he is us.   

[Sanguine]

Mesaclone, kudos for speaking the truth.   We have met the enemy, and he is us.   

Ah, @Jazzhead, we finally agree!  It is you.

[Cyber Liberty]

Mesaclone, kudos for speaking the truth.   We have met the enemy, and he is us.   

Speak for yourself.

[Jazzhead]

Yeah, all that's great and all, but the fact is the CC didn't do it.  Other, "moderate" Rs did it.   Sorry the facts don't fit your meme.

Moderate Republicans were on board until the FC demanded too much and tipped the political balance.   Reform of the EHB rules wasn't planned for the ACHA, but for later legislation and regulations.   GOP leadership knew that moderates would bolt over eliminating the EHB rules as part of the first step - because they knew that, for moderates, it would be akin to political suicide.    The blame lies at the feet of the FC, nobody else.   

[INVAR]

Mesaclone, kudos for speaking the truth.   We have met the enemy, and he is us.   

You are definitely an enemy, but with certainty - not one of us.

[skeeter]

Mesaclone, kudos for speaking the truth.   We have met the enemy, and he is us.   

This morning you were blaming conservatives. Go figger

[musiclady]

Ah, @Jazzhead, we finally agree!  It is you.

 

[skeeter]

Moderate Republicans were on board until the FC demanded too much and tipped the political balance.   Reform of the EHB rules wasn't planned for the ACHA, but for later legislation and regulations.   GOP leadership knew that moderates would bolt over eliminating the EHB rules as part of the first step - because they knew that, for moderates, it would be akin to political suicide.    The blame lies at the feet of the FC, nobody else.

Lol. This was originally a 'moderate' bill. 'Moderates' started bailing when Ryan tried to throw a few scraps to conservatives.

[Jazzhead]

Speak for yourself.

Oh,  I have and I will.   Political idiocy needs to be called out, time and again if need be.   The Freedom Caucus has damaged the cause of conservatism,  and left us with ObamaCare as its dubious legacy.   Simply idiots, as Rep. Poe has pointed out, in gentler language than mine.     

[Cyber Liberty]

Ah, @Jazzhead, we finally agree!  It is you.

[Cyber Liberty]

This morning you were blaming conservatives. Go figger

It seems the least the boy could do is just make up his mind.  I guess he wasnts to be a Congressman.

[Mom MD]

Lol. This was originally a 'moderate' bill. 'Moderates' started bailing when Ryan tried to throw a few scraps to conservatives.

You realize you are arguing with our resident liberal.....
The reactions to this are entertaining.  Liberals are outing themselves (if they haven't already) and a few at TOS are daring to criticize their religious head Donald Trump

[Jazzhead]

Lol. This was originally a 'moderate' bill. 'Moderates' started bailing when Ryan tried to throw a few scraps to conservatives.

A "few scraps"?

End the mandates?   Check.  End the subsidies?  Check.  Create the structure for more choices in the market?  Check.   Block-grant the Medicaid expansion, thereby establishing control over future costs?  Check.

These were all CONSERVATIVE features of the AHCA, that moderates were willing to support.   

A "few scraps"?   Spare me your ignorance, willful or otherwise.