Author Topic: Exclusive — Rand Paul: ‘Easily 35 No Votes’ Against Paul Ryan’s Obamacare 2.0, ‘I Would Predict They Pull Bill, Start Over’  (Read 7677 times)

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Offline Emjay

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"Tweak", my butt!

They've had a good SEVEN (7) YEARS to have planned a way out of this.

Don't blame President Trump for this premature 'baby'.   He wants it GONE and he wants interstate shopping, with soup to nuts assortment of plans.   YESTERDAY!

Why didn't he listen to people who know what they are doing?  I'm sure Ted Cruz offered to help.
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Offline Emjay

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Am disappointed more Texans are not on this list, but at least my congressman is.

You have a great congressman.
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Offline Emjay

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You're wrong.  It does plenty.  It gets rid of the employer and individual mandates immediately.   It gets rid of other ObamaCare taxes retroactively -  providing a boost to the economy.  It preserves access to insurance by those with pre-existing conditions while allowing insurance companies to punish free riders with higher rates.  It eases the forced subsidy of the old by the young - the biggest single factor in causing the current ACA death spiral, because young folks know the ACA individual policies are a rotten deal.   And this week's improvements permit greater tax credits for older Americans to address the cost of their policies.   

And the AHCA is only a first step,  providing the immediate tax and mandate relief that can be accomplished through budget reconciliation.   This first political victory must be achieved before other reforms - like tort reform and greater choices in available policies - can proceed.

The Freedom Caucus's nihilism puts the Republicans and President Trump at enormous political risk.   

You make it sound good so what do you think are the parts that make people like Ted Cruz leery of it?
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Offline Jazzhead

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Lol.....the very first thing I would do is get government the HELL out of it. 

So just one question - how would getting "government the HELL out of it"  help those with pre-existing conditions get affordable insurance?   

I suspect that your basic objection to the ACA (and the AHCA) is that it attempts to address this problem at all.   I suspect you believe that folks with pre-existing conditions can and should be denied insurance (as they would, of course, in a system unregulated by government) and be required to rely on personal savings and the charity of family and/or the church.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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You make it sound good so what do you think are the parts that make people like Ted Cruz leery of it?

I'm not a follower of Ted Cruz, so for me to try to read his mind would be unfair.  But see my response to XenaLee above - I suspect he objects to any government requirement that insurance companies offer guaranteed issue insurance.

But again - I seek to be fair to the man,  and I admit that I haven't read his policy positions on the subject.  If you'd like to link me to his positions,  I'd be pleased to provide a critical analysis.   
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:17:49 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline XenaLee

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So just one question - how would getting "government the HELL out of it"  help those with pre-existing conditions get affordable insurance?   

I suspect that your basic objection to the ACA (and the AHCA) is that it attempts to address this problem at all.   I suspect you believe that folks with pre-existing conditions can and should be denied insurance (as they would, of course, in a system unregulated by government) and be required to rely on personal savings and the charity of family and/or the church.   

It's no longer "insurance" if people can get coverage AFTER they already have a ""loss"".  The same is true with any type of insurance.  So stop calling it that when it comes to mandated coverage by insurers of pre-existing conditions.  Government mandates to that effect flies in the face of the very concept of "insurance".

I've stated what I would do re: repairing the damage the Democrats have done to our healthcare industry.  After putting things back the way they were (which was pretty damned good since people from other nations with socialized medicine came HERE to get treatment)....I would start by eliminating government fraud and waste.... and use those millions (more like billions, probably) to vamp up and improve medical treatment and services for US vets and for Medicaid patients (ie people that can NOT afford to pay for their own healthcare).  Where does it state in the constitution that government can and should mandate that taxpayers fund the same quality (or better) of healthcare for those that haven't paid into the system and can't afford to pay their own way in life?  You're an advocate of big government and socialism.  I'm against what you're for.  Got it?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:26:10 pm by XenaLee »
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Offline Jazzhead

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It's no longer "insurance" if people can get coverage AFTER they already have a ""loss"".  The same is true with any type of insurance.  So stop calling it that when it comes to mandated coverage by insurers of pre-existing conditions.  Government mandates to that effect flies in the face of the very concept of "insurance". 

No insurance will pay for a loss incurred prior to the effective date of coverage.   The major problem is with folks who lose their jobs.  Employer-provided insurance covers pre-existing conditions but individual insurance typically doesn't.   I'm glad you have at least a wee bit of compassion for Medicaid recipients - notwithstanding how lousy Medicaid coverage actually is.   But lots of middle class folks were left exposed to financial ruin by the 2008 financial crash.   ObamaCare helped millions of those folks,  so a simple repeal without a replacement would being political ruin on the GOP. 

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Offline Emjay

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It's no longer "insurance" if people can get coverage AFTER they already have a ""loss"".  The same is true with any type of insurance.  So stop calling it that when it comes to mandated coverage by insurers of pre-existing conditions.  Government mandates to that effect flies in the face of the very concept of "insurance".

I've stated what I would do re: repairing the damage the Democrats have done to our healthcare industry.  After putting things back the way they were (which was pretty damned good since people from other nations with socialized medicine came HERE to get treatment)....I would start by eliminating government fraud and waste.... and use those millions (more like billions, probably) to vamp up and improve medical treatment and services for US vets and for Medicaid patients (ie people that can NOT afford to pay for their own healthcare).  Where does it state in the constitution that government can and should mandate that taxpayers fund the same quality (or better) of healthcare for those that haven't paid into the system and can't afford to pay their own way in life?  You're an advocate of big government and socialism.  I'm against what you're for.  Got it?

Really !!  People have become so brainwashed into an Obama mindset that they've lost their faith in our free enterprise system.  Obamacare should be abolished and the government should get out of it completely.  Whatever problems arise with insurance companies can be solved in weeks or months if the government is not involved.
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Offline XenaLee

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No insurance will pay for a loss incurred prior to the effective date of coverage.   The major problem is with folks who lose their jobs.  Employer-provided insurance covers pre-existing conditions but individual insurance typically doesn't.   I'm glad you have at least a wee bit of compassion for Medicaid recipients - notwithstanding how lousy Medicaid coverage actually is.   But lots of middle class folks were left exposed to financial ruin by the 2008 financial crash.  ObamaCare helped millions of those folks,  so a simple repeal without a replacement would being political ruin on the GOP.

I know.  I was one of them.  But I didn't expect taxpayers to pay for MY healthcare or anything else after that deliberately orchestrated (by DemocRats)  disaster/crash.  I picked myself up and went on with what I had and adjusted.    ObamaCare helped people that should have been on or continued on with Medicaid by forcing taxpayers to pay for their 'better quality' healthcare.  That's full-blown socialism.  Not what this country was founded on and not something me or folks like me (ie the majority of Americans) want for America.  Or didn't you bother to gleen that via the last election?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:38:22 pm by XenaLee »
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Jazzhead

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I know.  I was one of them.  But I didn't expect taxpayers to pay for MY healthcare or anything else after that deliberately orchestrated (by DemocRats)  disaster/crash.  I picked myself up and went on with what I had and adjusted.

Well then you were lucky.  I'm glad for you.

Quote
   ObamaCare helped people that should have been on or continued on with Medicaid by forcing taxpayers to pay for their 'better quality' healthcare.  That's full-blown socialism.  Not what this country was founded on and not something me or folks like me (ie the majority of Americans) want for America.

Do you oppose Social Security too?   Will you refuse that as socialist welfare when you turn 65?

Quote
  Or didn't you bother to gleen that via the last election?

Trump rode a populist wave, not a conservative one.   
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Silver Pines

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Am disappointed more Texans are not on this list, but at least my congressman is.

@IsailedawayfromFR

Same here...Tom Garrett of Virginia.  Good on him.

Offline Emjay

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Well then you were lucky.  I'm glad for you.

Do you oppose Social Security too?   Will you refuse that as socialist welfare when you turn 65?

Trump rode a populist wave, not a conservative one.

Social Security is not socialist welfare ... at least not to the recipients, and challenging someone to refuse it to buck up your mindset is both ridiculous and mean.
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geronl

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Don't blame President Trump for this premature 'baby'.   He wants it GONE and he wants interstate shopping, with soup to nuts assortment of plans.   YESTERDAY!

Trump fully and wholeheartedly supports RINOcare, even threatened to primary those voting against it.

Offline Emjay

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My grandfather, Tandy Walker Davis, joined the Confederacy in Alabama.  He was in the Cavalry and had to provide his own horse.  After the war, he drifted to Mississippi, married my grandmother and that family drifted on down to East Texas. 

Tandy was a skilled craftsman and carpenter.  He was deaf from canon fire but he could build fine furniture or houses.  The railroad was coming through Texas and he secured a contract to build houses for the railroad workers.  Before he could do that, he had a stroke and died, leaving my grandmother with 7 children.  She did what she had to do.  She took in railroad workers as boarders.  Her oldest boys worked as farm hands for farmers in the area and her oldest daughter worked as a maid for a wealthy family.

We are a long way from that kind of self-reliance but we need to wean ourselves from total dependence on the government.

The social security system was a decent idea but it became corrupted.  Most government programs do.  It should be dismantled and revised.  But blaming current and future recipients in the heartless way that some people do is wrong and mean.
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Online DCPatriot

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Right!  Which is why he's, quote, "behind it 100%" and is actively pushing it.

They don't want the public to turn on them, will wall to wall stories about people without coverage during a transition out of Obamacare.

Supposedly, "Phase 1" is the most logical step to achieve the goal of returning to interstate vendors selling policies/plans.

I've chosen to go with the guy who wrote "The Art of the Deal".   Until he's steps forward and says, "Sorry, it's the best we could do.....", going to continue to fully support him.
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Offline LilLamb

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I'm so tired of the people with preexisting being used to fuel this whole argument that we are not compassionate if our government doesn't force insurance companies to insure them.

This is where private charity should fill the gap not the government.  What you force the government to fund with other people's money doesn't prove your compassion. If we had more money in our pockets we could make choices to help those in need with our own money.  That's the way it's supposed to happen and we can be infinitely more compassionate than a government agency.
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Offline XenaLee

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Well then you were lucky.  I'm glad for you.

Do you oppose Social Security too?   Will you refuse that as socialist welfare when you turn 65?

Trump rode a populist wave, not a conservative one.

Oh cut the crap.  What part of the difference between "social programs that people never paid a dime into" vs. programs that people were "taxed against their will their entire working lives to pay for"....

are you incapable of comprehending?  I paid into the damned program every paycheck for decades.  I had no choice in the matter.  Why the hell shouldn't I get some of MY money back? 

Yours is the typical socialist mentality.... ie it's not your money, it's the government's money once government has its greedy/grubby paws on it.  Eff that.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 06:42:42 pm by XenaLee »
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Emjay

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Oh cut the crap.  What part of the difference between "social programs that people never paid a dime into" vs. programs that people were "taxed against their will their entire working lives to pay for"....

are you incapable of comprehending?  I paid into the damned program every paycheck for decades.  I had no choice in the matter.  Why the hell shouldn't I get some of MY money back? 

Yours is the typical socialist mentality.... ie it's not your money, it's the government's money once government has its greedy/grubby paws on it.  Eff that.

Hah!  We all did.  But I gotta defend the original premise of the Social Security program.  It did help millions of middle and low income workers have a decent retirement.  I worked for SS for years.  Extremely efficiently run program.  I have letters from people who could barely write thanking us and telling how they resented the payments but now so thankful for it.

If it hadn't been a government run program, it might still be worthwhile and it has certainly taught us we need something different but like it.  Most people in their early and middle earning years have a lot better things to do with their money than pay into some far away retirement fund.

Social Security made life comfortable for my parents.  It should be turned into a program like 401Ks wherein the investors choose their own investment (within limits) ...but the contributions must be mandatory or we'll be dealing with people in wheelchairs holding tin cups on the street.
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Offline XenaLee

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Hah!  We all did.  But I gotta defend the original premise of the Social Security program.  It did help millions of middle and low income workers have a decent retirement.  I worked for SS for years.  Extremely efficiently run program.  I have letters from people who could barely write thanking us and telling how they resented the payments but now so thankful for it.

If it hadn't been a government run program, it might still be worthwhile and it has certainly taught us we need something different but like it.  Most people in their early and middle earning years have a lot better things to do with their money than pay into some far away retirement fund.

Social Security made life comfortable for my parents.  It should be turned into a program like 401Ks wherein the investors choose their own investment (within limits) ...but the contributions must be mandatory or we'll be dealing with people in wheelchairs holding tin cups on the street.

Exactly.  It should have been run as a private retirement fund all along instead of the slush fund for politicians it has become.  Mandatory retirement planning is, unfortunately, something that many people need since they think they will live forever while employed (dreaming).... and while in perfect health.  They don't plan for the 'what if's' in life.  But for government to run it or anything else means it will be run into the ground, eventually. 
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Laura Olson‏Verified account @lauraolson 2h2 hours ago More
Rep Lou Barletta now YES on Obamacare repeal after vote promised on blocking undocumented immigrants from tax credits



Offline INVAR

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Yours is the typical socialist mentality.... ie it's not your money, it's the government's money once government has its greedy/grubby paws on it.  Eff that.

Jazzhead proceeds from the abject Marxist/Communist mindset as self-evident in his posts here.

His standard talking point of 'luck in life' is simply regurgitated Democrat Dick Gephardt's famous talking point about the justification for government to force the lucky' to pay for those whom are the Democrat's slaves and dependents.

Jazzhead is simply a Socialist tyrant pretending to sound reasonable - which is how he hopes to beguile you into accepting Communism into your belief system.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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If they were truly serious about both Illegals and ObamaCare, they would ban any and all access for anyone not a proven US Citizen from having any access to tax credits, benefits or subsidized insurance.

But they are not serious.  I fear this is just another act in the political Kabuki Theater everyone is mesmerized watching.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

geronl

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The social security system was a decent idea but it became corrupted.  Most government programs do.  It should be dismantled and revised.  But blaming current and future recipients in the heartless way that some people do is wrong and mean.

The original proposal was a "decent idea" but the system passed by Congress was corrupt from the start

Offline Emjay

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The original proposal was a "decent idea" but the system passed by Congress was corrupt from the start

I disagree and you probably don't know what you're talking about anyway.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.