How a charismatic Christian movement aims to take over American culture

[bigheadfred]

They're not changing it. They're changing it back

I get that. I don't believe them.

[Hoodat]

I have nothing but love and respect for God...and am 100% certain the he/she/it exists.....

Ditto.

.....the point is that the Old Testament is a huge misrepresentation of who and what God is.

I wholeheartedly disagree.  Righteousness and justice are still the foundation of His throne.  Mercy and truth still go before His face.

The one true God is a being of love and reason, not the murderous and irrational beast of the Old Testament.

The God of the Old Testament gave us the Christ so that we could be reconciled with Him.  His desire is to have a family, which is why He created us.  His actions are completely rational.

[bigheadfred]

As far as I am concerned the Charismatic(s) are the Western form of the Kundalini Shakti. Buyer beware.

[EC]

I get that. I don't believe them.

Nor do I, I'm afraid.

Power and faith don't mix well. Hell, power and morals don't mix well - look at Congress. Bunch of weasels, in it for two things - to stay in power and to feed themselves from the trough. Yet not a one of them (OK, very few of them) started out like that. Most of them started out as good, decent, well intentioned people.
Think this lot are immune from that? I don't.

[bigheadfred]

Nor do I, I'm afraid.

Power and faith don't mix well. Hell, power and morals don't mix well - look at Congress. Bunch of weasels, in it for two things - to stay in power and to feed themselves from the trough. Yet not a one of them (OK, very few of them) started out like that. Most of them started out as good, decent, well intentioned people.
Think this lot are immune from that? I don't.

From their form and function they don't even care about immunity.

[Mesaclone]

Ditto.


I wholeheartedly disagree.  Righteousness and justice are still the foundation of His throne.  Mercy and truth still go before His face.


The God of the Old Testament gave us the Christ so that we could be reconciled with Him.  His desire is to have a family, which is why He created us.  His actions are completely rational.

The God of the Old Testament is a societal fiction...and like the society that created that vision of a deity, he is cruel, random and narcissistic...no loving god would play games like testing a man by ordering him to kill his child. That's sadistic at best, pure evil at worst. Fortunately, that isn't god but simply a fiction...god doesn't threaten, kill and abuse children. Men do...and then they blame god and write about it. Likewise, a rational god doesn't eternally punish his children...nothing could be more irrational.

Rational beings don't slaughter women and children, nor do they order such slaughter.

Righteousness and justice are still the foundation of His throne.  Mercy and truth still go before His face. That's a comically inane regurgitation...nobody is against justice and/or righteousness, so the statement is empty of purpose. That said, there's nothing of either in the ordered slaughter of children. As for what goes before his face...a stupid expression that "sounds" regal and important...one would assume that everything goes there if he's omniscient.

As for reconciling with us, God is omnipotent...he could reconcile with or without Christ. All he need do is choose to do so...and its done.

Riddle me this...Can god make a stone so big even he can't move it? Hint:The question asks if he could, not if he would.

[roamer_1]

I get that. I don't believe them.

Nor do I... None of them, political or religious. It's like 'Shysters on Parade' starting right from the top.

But there is no question the social right is going along. This discussion goes DEEP into Christian circles.

[roamer_1]

The God of the Old Testament is a societal fiction...

Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing, as is your alignment. Your every argument spews forth regularly out of atheists mouths, with every bit the same lack of depth as your own.

It doesn't say what you think it says.

There is no better proof of any deity as deep and wide and confirmed as is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - As found in the pages you so erroneously deny. There is truly none so blind as those who will not see.

[INVAR]

The God of the Old Testament is a societal fiction...

Then you do not believe in the Revealed God at all.

You believe in the god of your imagination.

[Emjay]

@Hoodat  Maybe I overreacted but you lumped social security recipients in with welfare frauds and I didn't appreciate it.  Don't bother to defend yourself.... I'm no longer interested.

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat  Maybe I overreacted but you lumped social security recipients in with welfare frauds and I didn't appreciate it.  Don't bother to defend yourself.... I'm no longer interested.

@Emjay

For the third time, I made a clear distinction between retirees and non-retirees.  Again, I believe social security should be used exclusively for retirees.  And once again, you have expressed your disagreement.

Assuming that you are a person beyond retirement age and receiving social security, I find your position baffling.  Thirty percent of social security payouts go to individuals 58 or younger, jeopardizing what is available for you.  So why do you defend that?

[Hoodat]

The God of the Old Testament is a societal fiction...and like the society that created that vision of a deity, he is cruel, random and narcissistic...

I could not disagree more.

...no loving god would play games like testing a man by ordering him to kill his child.

Perhaps if you had the same relationship that Abraham had, you would see it differently.

...nobody is against justice and/or righteousness, so the statement is empty of purpose.

Au contraire.  People go against justice all the time.  Rarely do you see anyone willing to take the punishment for what they have done.  You simply don't like it that God doesn't defer to how you think things ought to be done.

Riddle me this...Can god make a stone so big even he can't move it? Hint:The question asks if he could, not if he would.

If God had put a rule in place that such a stone couldn't be moved, then no, He could not move it.  I am reminded of the story of the tower of Babel where God said that because the people were of one accord, nothing that they set out to do could be withheld from them.  This tells me that God gave dominion to man and set rules in place regarding unity - rules that He is not willing to break.

God is not a micro-manager.  He is about righteousness and justice.  But he is also about mercy and love.  And the Bible that Jesus read affirms it.

[Mesaclone]

There is truly none so blind as those who will not see.

The irony of your statement is so perfect that there's little I can add.

[Mesaclone]

If God had put a rule in place that such a stone couldn't be moved, then no, He could not move it. 

Then, by definition, you have declared god not to be omnipotent....as the existence of his ability to make such a stone, inherently negates omnipotence. Or rather, the concept of omnipotence is revealed as untenable...a silly and archaic philosophical rabbit hole.

[Mesaclone]

Perhaps if you had the same relationship that Abraham had, you would see it differently.

On the contrary, the issue is not Abraham's relationship...nor Abraham himself. Its a deity that would torture its own creation by ordering it to murder its offspring...and that's just one of MANY instances in which this deity orders the largescale slaughter of innocents (ie women and children).

If that WERE God, we would indeed live in an evil and dark universe. Fortunately, this is simply a fiction drawn out of culture that was...like all cultures of this era...brutal and ruthless. Like all cultures, it created an equally brutal deity on which it could blame its own inhumanity. There is no justifying the acts of the fictional God of the Old Testament...they are arbitrary and utterly cruel...almost mindlessly so.

[txradioguy]

I've read it in great depth...and a very large number of other Gospels that didn't make it into "the book"...nearly went to seminary at one point.

My favorite is Thomas "the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood... and I am there, lift a stone... and you will find me."

You may have read the Bible. But from your comments it's obvious you don't understand the Bible.

There is a difference.

[bigheadfred]

On the contrary, the issue is not Abraham's relationship...nor Abraham himself. Its a deity that would torture its own creation by ordering it to murder its offspring...and that's just one of MANY instances in which this deity orders the largescale slaughter of innocents (ie women and children).

If that WERE God, we would indeed live in an evil and dark universe. Fortunately, this is simply a fiction drawn out of culture that was...like all cultures of this era...brutal and ruthless. Like all cultures, it created an equally brutal deity on which it could blame its own inhumanity. There is no justifying the acts of the fictional God of the Old Testament...they are arbitrary and utterly cruel...almost mindlessly so.

There is no justifying the acts of the fictional God of the Old Testament...

Forge away, master of the irony. 

[Hoodat]

Then, by definition, you have declared god not to be omnipotent....

I have done no such thing.

....as the existence of his ability to make such a stone, inherently negates omnipotence.

I made no statement about his ability to make or move such a stone.  My statement was purely a statement that God will not defy His character.

Or rather, the concept of omnipotence is revealed as untenable...a silly and archaic philosophical rabbit hole.

A philosophical rabbit hole based upon one false premise after another.  If you had asked for my opinion on God's omnipotence, then I would have answered you.  But instead, you ask a hypothetical question that is essentially a variant of the immovable object vs. the irresistible force, inject God into it, and then jumping ahead to the conclusion from the response that God is not omnipotent without actually processing the response.

It is clear from your posts that you have a problem with the way God does things.  But I would strongly suggest that you get to know Him first before passing such wrongheaded judgment.  Why don't you ask God to reveal Himself to you and show you what He is really about.  Surely, Jesus saw Him from the Old Testament perspective.  Maybe it is your glasses that need cleaning.

Call to me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things which you do not know.

Jeremiah 33:3

[Oceander]

Oh goodie!  A religion thread.

Jesus Saves!  But He doesn't do a checking account.

[Suppressed]

Since the thread has gone to the Old Testament, can anyone offer explanation on how to tell my disabled friend that God is fair, given His commands of discrimination in, say, Leviticus 21?

¹⁶ The LORD said to Moses, ¹⁷ “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. ¹⁸ No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; ¹⁹ no man with a crippled foot or hand, ²⁰ or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. ²¹ No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. ²² He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; ²³ yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.

She loves to read that she would "desecrate God's sanctuary" just because of her physical disability.

[bigheadfred]

Since the thread has gone to the Old Testament, can anyone offer explanation on how to tell my disabled friend that God is fair, given His commands of discrimination in, say, Leviticus 21?

She loves to read that she would "desecrate God's sanctuary" just because of her physical disability.

The operative word here is "she". The descendants of Aaron were/are the priest class. So if yer friend ain't a man or a priest she gets the same treatment as the rest of us.

[Hoodat]

Since the thread has gone to the Old Testament, can anyone offer explanation on how to tell my disabled friend that God is fair, given His commands of discrimination in, say, Leviticus 21?

Is your friend a Levite?

[roamer_1]

You may have read the Bible. But from your comments it's obvious you don't understand the Bible.

There is a difference.

Absolutely.

[bigheadfred]

Is your friend a Levite?

I think she is a Wallite.

[Hoodat]