Author Topic: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs  (Read 32350 times)

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Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #325 on: March 17, 2017, 03:21:50 pm »
This current drug manufacturer didn't invent the drug. They bought the patent.

If you think I'm complaining wait until I start bitching.


Right, but somebody still needs to pay for research costs.


I'm with a company that is a CRO (contractual research organization) for Pharmaceutical clients. We do outsourced research for companies. Don't be fooled by the propaganda, these companies pay a pretty penny on research costs.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #326 on: March 17, 2017, 03:22:01 pm »
You're saying the Constitution doesn't permit Congress to provide for the general welfare?

Nope.  Not in the way and manner Central Planners like you view the words 'general welfare'.  My view is that of the Founders - and government provision was not one of those attributes afforded the national government.

What's your view of Social Security?  Just another Commie plot?

I certainly do not consider FDR to be any kind of Constitutional Conservative. Especially given his admiration of Benito Mussolini's work in Italy.


You are truly this forum's font of mythology.     

Coming from this forum's resident Communist/Marxist - that is a massive compliment.  Thanks.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #327 on: March 17, 2017, 03:23:20 pm »
I think he would be the go-to source to find out what the intent was!

@Bigun  you would think...and I agree with you BTW...but some people here refuse to listen.
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #328 on: March 17, 2017, 03:28:01 pm »

Right, but somebody still needs to pay for research costs.


I'm with a company that is a CRO (contractual research organization) for Pharmaceutical clients. We do outsourced research for companies. Don't be fooled by the propaganda, these companies pay a pretty penny on research costs.

Right. Someone has to pay your way.

Since everyone is at risk for cancer it behooves everyone to pay something towards its cure. Maybe the government should have a tax for that.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #329 on: March 17, 2017, 03:28:15 pm »

Right, but somebody still needs to pay for research costs.


I'm with a company that is a CRO (contractual research organization) for Pharmaceutical clients. We do outsourced research for companies. Don't be fooled by the propaganda, these companies pay a pretty penny on research costs.
They also have to cover the cost of a lot of money sucking failures. Like anything else, its a tough business. If they were simply @#$ their customers someone would come along and undercut them. Their's a lot of issues with how the FDA regulates drugs and drags out the research time and cost that play a big factor.
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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #330 on: March 17, 2017, 03:28:38 pm »
@Bigun  you would think...and I agree with you BTW...but some people here refuse to listen.

I find it interesting Madison's words from The Federalist Papers have no impact on court decisions, yet Trump's words on the campaign trail do. :shrug:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 03:29:08 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #331 on: March 17, 2017, 03:29:03 pm »
@Smokin Joe for some people in the country Government has become their religion/God.

Indeed it has.

Even among those who self-identify as Conservatives.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #332 on: March 17, 2017, 03:31:45 pm »
Right. Someone has to pay your way.

Since everyone is at risk for cancer it behooves everyone to pay something towards its cure. Maybe the government should have a tax for that.






Since everyone is at risk for homelessness it behooves everyone to pay something towards public housing.


Since everyone is at risk for hunger it behooves everyone to pay something towards food stamps.


Since everyone is at risk for bankruptcy it behooves everyone to pay something towards SSDI.


Since everyone gets old it behooves everyone to pay something towards Social Security.


Since everyone lives in the environment it behooves everyone to pay something towards the EPA


Since everyone eats it behooves everyone to pay something towards the FDA


Since everyone needs a job it behooves everyone to pay something towards the Department of Education.


See the pattern here?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 03:32:24 pm by Weird Tolkienish Figure »

Online Bigun

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #333 on: March 17, 2017, 03:36:15 pm »
I find it interesting Madison's words from The Federalist Papers have no impact on court decisions, yet Trump's words on the campaign trail do. :shrug:

Just shows how far we have gone down the slippery slope to hell!

We didn't have much of a problem with rogue courts for so long as any founder still lived because they knew what the proper relationship was!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 03:42:16 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #334 on: March 17, 2017, 03:40:02 pm »
Right. Someone has to pay your way.

Since everyone is at risk for cancer it behooves everyone to pay something towards its cure. Maybe the government should have a tax for that.

Everyone is at risk of starvation.  Does that mean it behooves everyone to pay something towards it's provision for everyone?  Empowering government to tax for that?

Oh.... we already have that.  It's where EBT cards come from.

Where welfare constituents drive better cars and have better name brand shoes than anything I can afford because their housing and food is paid for by via confiscatory taxation by the government that panders to them for votes to stay in power for perpetuity.

Where does it end?

It doesn't.  We just become the Soviet Union and we lie to ourselves that we are a Republic.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #335 on: March 17, 2017, 03:41:59 pm »
Just shows how far we have gone down the slippery slope to hell!


We've butted heads Bigun but I admire your commitment to liberty and freedom.

Online Bigun

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #336 on: March 17, 2017, 03:44:16 pm »

We've butted heads Bigun but I admire your commitment to liberty and freedom.

Thank you!  It's all right there before us written down in plain English language!  All WE have to do is INSIST on using it again!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #337 on: March 17, 2017, 03:45:17 pm »
Where does it end?

"Sooner or later you run out of other people's money." -Maggie Thatcher

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #338 on: March 17, 2017, 03:46:16 pm »
What, then, is the point of medicine? Is it to actually help people, or make money? I'm betting money.

There is a ton of money being spent on all aspects of cancer. Do you think there are that many researchers and related people in the BUSINESS of cancer that want to see any cures?

Well, I'm a multiple-time survivor, so from what I can personally attest to: yes, they do want to see cures.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #339 on: March 17, 2017, 03:57:40 pm »
"Sooner or later you run out of other people's money." -Maggie Thatcher
The founders never intended the American government to have the power to print and borrow money like it does. I think they'd be appalled just by ability to spend much less what we use it for.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #340 on: March 17, 2017, 03:59:53 pm »
"General welfare" is limited by the enumerated powers given to Congress in the Constitution.

Not sure how much clearer it needs to be.

You cannot make that claim: the meaning of the term is not defined by the Constitution, and in the quotes you posted, neither Madison nor Hamilton clarified the its exact meaning.  At most they talked about its scope, as they saw it -- and for what it's worth, Hamilton and Madison disagreed on that point.

If we look at it using common-sense, the term "general Welfare of the United States" is probably best interpreted as "things that need to get done that are not explicitly enumerated in the Constitution."  Things like allocating money for the Louisiana Purchase, say -- also not explicitly among the enumerated powers.  But it's easy to argue that it promoted "the general Welfare."

The scope is limited in one sense: money raised to further "the general Welfare" must be done to the benefit of "the United States," as opposed to a particular state, or to benefit specific individuals.  It can be argued that money to fund Kudlow's idea falls under that clause; and in Butler the USSC ruled that Congress gets to decide what the phrase actually means.

I really don't think you have a valid argument.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #341 on: March 17, 2017, 04:01:23 pm »
You cannot make that claim: the meaning of the term is not defined by the Constitution, and in the quotes you posted, neither Madison nor Hamilton clarified the its exact meaning.  At most they talked about its scope, as they saw it -- and for what it's worth, Hamilton and Madison disagreed on that point.

If we look at it using common-sense, the term "general Welfare of the United States" is probably best interpreted as "things that need to get done that are not explicitly enumerated in the Constitution."  Things like allocating money for the Louisiana Purchase, say -- also not explicitly among the enumerated powers.  But it's easy to argue that it promoted "the general Welfare."

The scope is limited in one sense: money raised to further "the general Welfare" must be done to the benefit of "the United States," as opposed to a particular state, or to benefit specific individuals.  It can be argued that money to fund Kudlow's idea falls under that clause; and in Butler the USSC ruled that Congress gets to decide what the phrase actually means.

I really don't think you have a valid argument.
Did you read the Madison quotes above? Seems to me if you want to figure out the meaning you should ask the authors.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline INVAR

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #342 on: March 17, 2017, 04:11:42 pm »
The scope is limited in one sense: money raised to further "the general Welfare" must be done to the benefit of "the United States," as opposed to a particular state, or to benefit specific individuals.  It can be argued that money to fund Kudlow's idea falls under that clause; and in Butler the USSC ruled that Congress gets to decide what the phrase actually means.


The bastardization of 'general welfare' as applied is that Congress and the government specifically portion benefit to particular groups and individuals that make up their constituencies.  They then pander to those they make provision via promising more benefits at taxpayer expense or threatening them with elimination of provision if they are not voted for.

We're bankrupt and broke - and all this wrestling over the meaning of words that you think are not clear and can be interpreted the way the Leftists in Congress want them to mean is irrelevant when the currency becomes worthless because our debt crushes everything that the Welfare Statists have piled up into the tens of trillions that this people have no means or ability to pay down.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Bigun

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #343 on: March 17, 2017, 04:15:17 pm »
Did you read the Madison quotes above? Seems to me if you want to figure out the meaning you should ask the authors.

@Idaho_Cowboy

The trolls are never going to agree with us no matter how much you argue with them! Better to just stop feeding them IMHO!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #344 on: March 17, 2017, 04:15:22 pm »
Did you read the Madison quotes above? Seems to me if you want to figure out the meaning you should ask the authors.

I did read them.  You will notice that he doesn't actually say what the phrase means.  He says it's doesn't confer unlimited powers, but that's clear from the wording itself.

At any rate, this particular argument was decided over 80 years ago by the branch of government whose purpose is to interpret Constutitional meaning where it is not clear. 

The USSC said that it is within Congress' discretion to decide whether or not something falls within the scope of "general Welfare."


Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #345 on: March 17, 2017, 04:17:22 pm »
The bastardization of 'general welfare' as applied is that Congress and the government specifically portion benefit to particular groups and individuals that make up their constituencies.  They then pander to those they make provision via promising more benefits at taxpayer expense or threatening them with elimination of provision if they are not voted for.

There is no doubt that Congress has abused its authority in just the ways you mentioned.

And were not held accountable for doing so.

Whose fault is that?

Online Bigun

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #346 on: March 17, 2017, 04:19:24 pm »
I did read them.  You will notice that he doesn't actually say what the phrase means.  He says it's doesn't confer unlimited powers, but that's clear from the wording itself.

At any rate, this particular argument was decided over 80 years ago by the branch of government whose purpose is to interpret Constutitional meaning where it is not clear. 

The USSC said that it is within Congress' discretion to decide whether or not something falls within the scope of "general Welfare."

Would you be so kind as to point out for me the word or phrase in the constitution that grants the courts the power to "interpret" the constitution?  I have not been able to find that and would thank you kindly if you would enlighten me as to its whereabouts.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #347 on: March 17, 2017, 04:23:04 pm »
@r9etb

We're not individuals only: as humans our proper state is to live as part of a community.

That is too broad of a brush.

How so? 

Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #348 on: March 17, 2017, 04:24:15 pm »
Would you be so kind as to point out for me the word or phrase in the constitution that grants the courts the power to "interpret" the constitution?  I have not been able to find that and would thank you kindly if you would enlighten me as to its whereabouts.

Sigh.  We're not going back to Marbury vs. Madison.  You've already lost that one.  Badly.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #349 on: March 17, 2017, 04:24:43 pm »
"General welfare" applies to the federal government. It does not apply to individuals.