Author Topic: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs  (Read 30904 times)

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Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2017, 06:23:34 pm »
There are a lot of jobs in this world. When will someone from the Federal Government be out to fix my leaky faucet, or mow my lawn?

Or help you to pull your head out?


Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2017, 06:24:11 pm »
If you are so moved to help people. Why don't you get off your rear and do it instead of asking the government to put a gun to my head and make me do it?

Make you a deal find me a charity that helps with this sort of thing and I'll match your donation up to a hundred bucks.

Non-answer. 

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2017, 06:24:45 pm »
Right.  And from this I take it that you'd no doubt happily contribute voluntarily to a charity that helped those who were unable to pay for their own health care.  In other words, the question as it pertains to health care is apparently mostly a question of ways and means for you. 

But would I be correct in assuming that there are some things -- roads and bridges, for example -- that you would say are legitimately the "job" of the government?

So here's the question: what's the difference?

The difference?  Well, there are a number, but I will restrict my answer to "those things enumerated in the Constitution".  Some of us really believe that stuff. Weird, huh?

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2017, 06:25:35 pm »
Or help you to pull your head out?

Now, why would you respond with an insult to someone answering your question?

Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2017, 06:31:15 pm »
Now, why would you respond with an insult to someone answering your question?

Well, I'm not proud of it.  But his "answer" is an old, tired, and stupid little ploy and I lost patience with him.

Offline FS7

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2017, 06:31:30 pm »
If I were you I wouldn't be scolding others about "sophomoric thinking," until you can pull the old plank out of your own eye first. 

To begin with, you're talking about health insurance as if it were the same sort of beast as car or life insurance, in which premiums and coverage are predicated primarily on risk; and we're expected to pay those premiums ourselves.

But that's not how health insurance works, for most of us, and it hasn't done for a long time.  What we call "health insurance" is probably better described as a form of cost sharing, and the majority of the costs are borne not by individuals, but by employers.  There's certainly a risk component involved in the pricing, but the risk is handled much differently than it is for something like life insurance.

Moreover, for pretty much everybody, "health insurance" ends at age 65, at which point Medicare coverage begins, and the taxpayers already have that burden.  (It's also where most of the health care costs are carried, I suspect.)

You're also skipping over Kudlow's key point: the fact that those 5% account for 50% of health care costs.  That's probably a correct statistic.  At any rate, that 50% number is something that bears serious scrutiny: is it possible to find a way to remove that cost from the cost pool of the relatively healthy?

Just suppose that the insurance companies did not have to deal with that "sick 5%."  They'd be looking at a significant reduction in outlays -- probably not 50% less, but a lot less.  This could (as your interestingly Bernie Sanders-ish argument goes) "grossly enrich insurance companies," but that's where your argument becomes sophomoric. 

You neglect to address the fact that employers negotiate their premiums with those same insurance companies, and have a very strong vested interest in reducing the premiums they have to pay.  It would be very strange indeed if insurance premiums did not go down.

So we're left with the remaining 5% of the people. The question is: what does one do about that 5%?  We cannot expect such people to be able to shoulder that sort of cost.  So do we let them die, or do we help them to find some level of treatment?  If the latter, how is it best done?

You asked: is it possible to find a way to remove that cost from the cost pool of the relatively healthy?

If you remove them from the insurance pool, then theoretically the costs to the rest of the insured go down. However, since we're not "letting people die" (Thanks for the leftist talking point) somebody has to pay for that care. In Kudlow's (and obviously your) argument, this falls onto the shoulders of the taxpayer. This is probably ideal from your standpoint, as this moves the burden of payment onto a smaller subset of the population and is backed by the guns of government.

Also, the sole reason insurance companies exist is to insure against a potential future negative outcome. They collect premiums now to pay claims on those future negative outcomes. How in the bloody hell is it a "Bernie Sanders" argument to say that if they can collect premiums from healthy individuals and not pay on future negative outcomes that they will be grossly enriched? They'd be collecting money while paying out little or nothing - after all, the "government" in your plan pays for that.

Employers pay insurance premiums as a benefit to their employees. The fact that the employee doesn't see that money does not mean that the employer is paying it. It's not like they pay it regardless of whether that employee is on the payroll or not. If the employee opts in to the health insurance programs offered by their employer, the employer offers a portion as a paid benefit to the employee while deducting the remainder from the employee's wages. The fact that the system (at least as it is in place everywhere) prevents the employee from collecting that money themselves and choosing their own health insurance (or forgoing it entirely) does not change the fact that it's paid as a benefit on behalf of the employee.

Finally, you said: We cannot expect such people to be able to shoulder that sort of cost. You are fully embracing redistributionism by using false compassion as a bludgeon. Whether sick people are able to afford their medical bills or not is not my problem. I have no responsibility except to myself and my family. I do not expect the government to pick the pocket of another to pay my bills and I certainly do not want them picking the pockets of ANYONE to pay the bills of another.

The idiotic leftist talking point of people dying in the streets does not happen and has not happened. Hospitals treat people regardless of their ability to pay and many drug companies offer programs to those who can't be. Cost-sharing programs exist (where permitted by government, at least) and charity programs help those truly in need. What you advocate for is forced charity - totalitarianism, in other words, which is no charity at all.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2017, 06:35:35 pm »
Right.  And from this I take it that you'd no doubt happily contribute voluntarily to a charity that helped those who were unable to pay for their own health care.  In other words, the question as it pertains to health care is apparently mostly a question of ways and means for you. 

But would I be correct in assuming that there are some things -- roads and bridges, for example -- that you would say are legitimately the "job" of the government?

So here's the question: what's the difference?
I don't drive over doctors to get to work in the morning. :laugh: 

The Cost of roads is at least somewhat related to my usage of the service provided via the gas tax etc. It's not perfect but it's not welfare. The theory is I'm paying for a service that the market can't (that's another discussion) provide as effectively. Since all benefit from the roads and the service is open to all; all contribute. Taxes for roads are not re distributive. What you are suggesting would be analogous to changing the gas tax based on income or other circumstances. Roads are kind of like if I go buy insurance or pay my doctor for a service. 

There is no reason to assume that a government run command and control style health care stands a ghost of a chance of allocating resources as efficiently as the market does. It's the basic difference between capitalism and socialism. It wasn't fair that folks in Russia didn't have access to the food they needed. So the Soviets fixed the problem and starved everybody. Not because they wanted to; because command and control economies are inefficient. We do not need to expand that kind of equal suffering to health care.

Basic economics: When the government takes over there are shortages. Is that what you want with healthcare?
If you don't believe me take a gander:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1265310/need-to-see-a-gp-the-average-waiting-time-for-an-appointment-is-now-13-days/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570597/Three-week-wait-doctor-Millions-patients-denied-prompt-appointment-GP.html

Even with our messed up system people are waiting days:
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/sunday-review/long-waits-for-doctors-appointments-have-become-the-norm.html?_r=0

Government is not the solution. Government is the problem.

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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2017, 06:37:07 pm »
Non-answer.
Sure, if you live in a world wear government must do EVERYTHING; then I guess so. I figured you wouldn't have the huevos to put your money where your mouth is.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2017, 06:41:14 pm »
Once you become infected with the Trump virus, the chances of recovering your principles are slim.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2017, 06:45:05 pm »
Well, I'm not proud of it.  But his "answer" is an old, tired, and stupid little ploy and I lost patience with him.
Sort of like the lie that people are dying because they can't get care.

Take a look at this if you are interested in facts and history on the subject:
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/catosletterv3n1.pdf

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/whats-wrong-obamacare

This can't be stressed enough:
CBO: Full Repeal Would Cover More People than House GOP’s ObamaCare-Lite Bill
https://www.cato.org/blog/cbo-more-lose-coverage-under-obamacare-lite-full-repeal

It's basic economics. The less government the better the market works.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2017, 06:52:50 pm »
However, since we're not "letting people die" (Thanks for the leftist talking point) somebody has to pay for that care. In Kudlow's (and obviously your) argument, this falls onto the shoulders of the taxpayer. This is probably ideal from your standpoint, as this moves the burden of payment onto a smaller subset of the population and is backed by the guns of government.

Somebody has to pay for that care.  Correct.  I presume you say so because the alternative is not worth considering.  Kudlow is suggesting that spreading the cost among the national tax base is probably the least intrusive, in terms of money, and the most likely to ensure that the care actually is paid for.  There's some merit to that argument.  Assuming that the same level of cost can be covered through charitable contributions is perhaps a bit idealistic.

Quote
Also, the sole reason insurance companies exist is to insure against a potential future negative outcome. They collect premiums now to pay claims on those future negative outcomes. How in the bloody hell is it a "Bernie Sanders" argument to say that if they can collect premiums from healthy individuals and not pay on future negative outcomes that they will be grossly enriched? They'd be collecting money while paying out little or nothing - after all, the "government" in your plan pays for that.

The "Bernie Sanders argument" was your reference to "grossly enrich[ing] insurance companies," used as an argument against Kudlow's idea. 

Quote
Employers pay insurance premiums as a benefit to their employees. The fact that the employee doesn't see that money does not mean that the employer is paying it. It's not like they pay it regardless of whether that employee is on the payroll or not. If the employee opts in to the health insurance programs offered by their employer, the employer offers a portion as a paid benefit to the employee while deducting the remainder from the employee's wages. The fact that the system (at least as it is in place everywhere) prevents the employee from collecting that money themselves and choosing their own health insurance (or forgoing it entirely) does not change the fact that it's paid as a benefit on behalf of the employee.

You're not addressing  the context in which the comment was made, which was that the insurance companies won't be "grossly enriched," because the various employers won't negotiate on that basis.

Quote
Finally, you said: We cannot expect such people to be able to shoulder that sort of cost. You are fully embracing redistributionism by using false compassion as a bludgeon. Whether sick people are able to afford their medical bills or not is not my problem. I have no responsibility except to myself and my family. I do not expect the government to pick the pocket of another to pay my bills and I certainly do not want them picking the pockets of ANYONE to pay the bills of another.

Wow.  Talk about completely missing the point.  What I said was, "We cannot expect such people to be able to shoulder that sort of cost."  In other words, they simply cannot afford to do so.  They don't have the money to do so.  They're not rich enough to afford it.   It's not a question of "redistributionism," (rolls eyes), it's just an economic fact. 

And so the question becomes, what are we supposed to do about such people? 

Quote
The idiotic leftist talking point of people dying in the streets does not happen and has not happened. Hospitals treat people regardless of their ability to pay and many drug companies offer programs to those who can't be. Cost-sharing programs exist (where permitted by government, at least) and charity programs help those truly in need. What you advocate for is forced charity - totalitarianism, in other words, which is no charity at all.

Wow.  I would expect a high school sophomore to talk like that.  So again, back to that log in your eye....

Offline ABX

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2017, 06:55:21 pm »
I just need to fix something here...

Quote
The government You needs to pay....

Silly Larry thinks the government actually generates the revenue directly to pay for anything.

Offline LonestarDream

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2017, 06:55:42 pm »
You are imputing the exact opposite of what is being stated.  If the needy / sick are not isolated , we will tend to single payer.  ObamaCare encourages the free riding, adverse selection and 'moral hazards' that you mention.

It will take time to undo this, if ever.  So there needs to weaning process and isolating the truly needy 'charity cases' is part of that. 

Presumably you're defending this point of view. I'll assume you haven't thought about it.

The reason insurance companies charge premiums is to cover their risk in the eventual case expensive care is required. You pay while you don't need it so that you can receive care when you need it. Now, if you isolate the "sick" in a pool, there is no reason for insurance. Alternatively, this could be looked at as a way to grossly enrich insurance companies by letting them collect money from healthy people but transfer the hard work (paying out claims for the sick) to the taxpayer. Either way, this is an argument for single payer.

It would, in addition, do absolutely nothing to contain costs. The taxpayer becomes responsible for both their own health insurance as well as the government-sponsored "sick pool." Given the inefficiency of the government, it's likely that costs to the end user would increase substantially. At the absolute theoretical best, they would remain the same, but then that would obviate the need for such a program.

Any amount of logical thought shows that this is an argument for single payer somebody with the rationalization ability of a high school sophomore would propose.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2017, 06:59:29 pm »
I just need to fix something here...

Silly Larry thinks the government actually generates the revenue directly to pay for anything.

Oh, come on.  I'm pretty sure Larry is quite aware of where "government money" comes from.  So, fine -- you don't like his idea.  But there's no need for that kind of "fix."  It's not helpful.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 07:00:12 pm by r9etb »

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2017, 07:02:32 pm »
Oh, come on.  I'm pretty sure Larry is quite aware of where "government money" comes from.  So, fine -- you don't like his idea.  But there's no need for that kind of "fix."  It's not helpful.
Neither is suggesting unconstitutional theft.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline FS7

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2017, 07:06:33 pm »
Somebody has to pay for that care.  Correct.  I presume you say so because the alternative is not worth considering.  Kudlow is suggesting that spreading the cost among the national tax base is probably the least intrusive, in terms of money, and the most likely to ensure that the care actually is paid for.  There's some merit to that argument.  Assuming that the same level of cost can be covered through charitable contributions is perhaps a bit idealistic.

The "Bernie Sanders argument" was your reference to "grossly enrich[ing] insurance companies," used as an argument against Kudlow's idea. 

You're not addressing  the context in which the comment was made, which was that the insurance companies won't be "grossly enriched," because the various employers won't negotiate on that basis.

Wow.  Talk about completely missing the point.  What I said was, "We cannot expect such people to be able to shoulder that sort of cost."  In other words, they simply cannot afford to do so.  They don't have the money to do so.  They're not rich enough to afford it.   It's not a question of "redistributionism," (rolls eyes), it's just an economic fact. 

And so the question becomes, what are we supposed to do about such people? 

Wow.  I would expect a high school sophomore to talk like that.  So again, back to that log in your eye....

Let's go back a step. To be unequivocally clear, I do not believe that any human on this planet is entitled to medical care. If they can't pay, they are not entitled to it. It is a service provided to an individual by another individual, and in every other aspect of human interaction the person receiving the service pays for it.

Now, the premise of this argument is that there are already 5% of the people who are responsible for 50% of all healthcare costs. They are either presently insured or presently receiving care. Regardless of whether they are insured or not, they are presently paid for by the currently insured. Hospitals don't bill the government (with the exception of Medicare/Medicaid). What they don't get from patients that don't pay, they recover from those that do. If there were some practicable way to do what Kudlow suggests (there isn't, by the way) then it would be shouldered by the taxpayer. There is no Constitutional authority to collect taxes on this basis. That should be the end of the story.

Like most "gimme gimme" leftists, you haven't even thought your arguments through before presenting them. Before you devolve into shrieking hysterics complete with crocodile tears over those who can't afford medical care, you should stop and think what this means. You are saying that regardless of their ability to pay, they simply HAVE TO HAVE medical care, and the rest of us will pay for it one way or another. Human biology dictates that the human body has a FAR, FAR, FAR greater need for shelter, water, and food, in that order. Yet we do not run around screaming about those who can't pay for that. People will die from exposure, thirst, or starvation long before they suffer ill effects from lack of medical care (excluding urgent trauma). Logically, if you advocate for medical care on this basis, then you must assume that the guns of government and redistributionism should allocate food, water, and shelter to every individual.

Do you disagree with that? If you do, please explain how this is consistent with your position on health care.

Offline Taxcontrol

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2017, 07:09:07 pm »
I see nothing in the Constitution that supports the claim govt must pay, hence Discarded.

Money quote right there!

Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2017, 07:10:25 pm »
Neither is suggesting unconstitutional theft.

As opposed to Constitutional theft....?

Speaking of the Constitution, Article I Section 8 begins, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States...."

One could make a plausible argument that some amount of taxation for the purpose of paying for health care, for some, could be justified under "provid[ing] for the ... general Welfare."  That's not to say that what we have now is the right answer, but at least the argument can be made that "Constitutional theft" is a possible recourse.

Offline FS7

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2017, 07:19:06 pm »
As opposed to Constitutional theft....?

Speaking of the Constitution, Article I Section 8 begins, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States...."

One could make a plausible argument that some amount of taxation for the purpose of paying for health care, for some, could be justified under "provid[ing] for the ... general Welfare."  That's not to say that what we have now is the right answer, but at least the argument can be made that "Constitutional theft" is a possible recourse.

Wow, you really are a socialist, aren't you?

If the "general welfare" wording was meant to imply that the Constitution granted unlimited powers to the federal government, there would have been no need to enumerate powers in the document. As Madison argued in 1831, the "general welfare" should be construed to mean in support of its enumerated powers, and not something above and beyond (which would completely obviate the need for enumerated powers).

This isn't a hard concept.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2017, 07:24:15 pm »
Well, I'm not proud of it.  But his "answer" is an old, tired, and stupid little ploy and I lost patience with him.

I do appreciate your candor.

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2017, 07:35:40 pm »
Let's go back a step. To be unequivocally clear, I do not believe that any human on this planet is entitled to medical care. If they can't pay, they are not entitled to it. It is a service provided to an individual by another individual, and in every other aspect of human interaction the person receiving the service pays for it.

I agree, but we should go back to making this a local issue. Allow county governments to operate -if the local voters allow- county general hospitals for the needy while selling services to the middle class. Health insurance got started when hospitals started allowing people to make monthly pre-payments for future needs, but that was banned at some point.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2017, 07:37:29 pm »
Wow, you really are a socialist, aren't you?

No. 

Your practice of starting every post with an insult is getting a bit tiresome.  I begin to suspect you may really be a 10th-grader, in which case congratulations on your vocabulary.  If not ... then you need to learn to behave like an adult.

Quote
If the "general welfare" wording was meant to imply that the Constitution granted unlimited powers to the federal government, there would have been no need to enumerate powers in the document. As Madison argued in 1831, the "general welfare" should be construed to mean in support of its enumerated powers, and not something above and beyond (which would completely obviate the need for enumerated powers).

And Hamilton argued the opposite -- that the phrase should be interpreted more broadly.

A good synopsis of how that argument has played out in law can be found here: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/General+Welfare.

Ultimately, in the Butler decision (1936) the Supreme Court ruled that the determination of "general welfare" falls "within the wide range of discretion permitted to the Congress."

At any rate, I didn't argue that using taxes to pay for some people's health care was necessarily covered within "general welfare," only that a plausible argument for doing so can be made on that basis. 

Offline LonestarDream

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2017, 07:41:07 pm »
Unfortunately, his interpretation of 'general welfare' is a common one now in the country.

And John Roberts stating that the obamacare 'non' tax is really a tax further cements the misconstrued concept of 'general welfare'.

So hopefully we can grow / wean ourselves out of this like we did in the 1980s.  Otherwise,  we end up like Greece or Venezuela
Wow, you really are a socialist, aren't you?

If the "general welfare" wording was meant to imply that the Constitution granted unlimited powers to the federal government, there would have been no need to enumerate powers in the document. As Madison argued in 1831, the "general welfare" should be construed to mean in support of its enumerated powers, and not something above and beyond (which would completely obviate the need for enumerated powers).

This isn't a hard concept.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2017, 07:55:09 pm »
Health insurance got started when hospitals started allowing people to make monthly pre-payments for future needs, but that was banned at some point.

I don't know about that, either way.  What I do know, is that health "insurance" as we now know it, really got started when employers started using it during WWII, as a non-salary benefit to attract workers at a time when a wage freeze had been imposed as a war measure.  Labor negotiations then and later no doubt added to the level and scope -- and therefore cost to the employer -- of coverage.

(Interesting history of health insurance is here: https://www.ebri.org/publications/facts/index.cfm?fa=0302fact).

My take on the whole subject is that "health insurance" as we now know it, is significantly responsible for skewing the cost structure for medical treatment, regardless of whatever effects government intervention has had.  That's because it's not "insurance" in the usual sense, but rather a sophisticated cost-sharing scheme.  I wouldn't want to toss that model out completely -- it's an extraordinarily helpful thing for people with expensive chronic conditions such as Type I diabetes, for example.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Larry Kudlow: The government needs to pay 50% of healthcare costs
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2017, 08:37:51 pm »
As opposed to Constitutional theft....?

Speaking of the Constitution, Article I Section 8 begins, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States...."

One could make a plausible argument that some amount of taxation for the purpose of paying for health care, for some, could be justified under "provid[ing] for the ... general Welfare."  That's not to say that what we have now is the right answer, but at least the argument can be made that "Constitutional theft" is a possible recourse.
Is there anything you can't use the Welfare clause to justify? Wouldn't it be worthwhile to give some thought to what the founders intended when they wrote that phrase. It's not a blank check. Amendments 9 and 10 still apply.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour