Author Topic: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?  (Read 11232 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2017, 02:43:12 am »
From Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
Posse Comitatus Act

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed on June 18, 1878 by President Rutherford B. Hayes. The purpose of the act – in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807 – is to limit the powers of the federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States. It was passed as an amendment to an army appropriation bill following the end of Reconstruction, and was subsequently updated in 1956 and 1981.

Recent legislative events

In 2006, Congress modified the Insurrection Act as part of the 2007 Defense Authorization Bill (repealed as of 2008). On September 26, 2006, President George W. Bush urged Congress to consider revising federal laws so that U.S. armed forces could restore public order and enforce laws in the aftermath of a natural disaster, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition. These changes were included in the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122), which was signed into law on October 17, 2006.[7]

Section 1076 is titled "Use of the Armed Forces in major public emergencies." It provided that:

    The President may employ the armed forces... to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition... the President determines that... domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order... or [to] suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such... a condition... so hinders the execution of the laws... that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law... or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.[8]

In 2008, these changes in the Insurrection Act of 1807 were repealed in their entirety, reverting to the previous wording of the Insurrection Act.[9] It was originally written to limit Presidential power as much as possible in the event of insurrection, rebellion, or lawlessness.

In 2011, President Barack Obama signed National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 into law. Section 1021(b)(2) extended the definition of a "covered person", i.e., someone possibly subject to detention under this law, to include:

    A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.[10]

Section 1021(e) purports to limit the scope of said authority with the text, "Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States."[11]


Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2017, 02:44:18 am »
Weird......I am referring only to WACO.  That is one incident.  Ruby Ridge was another horror.  I believe Lon Horiucci was the shooter of the mother holding the baby.  He skated and Louie Freeh actually sought a promotion for him but the outrage was too great.
The CS was inserted into the Mt. Carmel complex at Waco with CEVs on the last day of the siege.
Ruby Ridge was the original topic...
and it came up was that it was BEFORE, Waco, not after it as is sometimes thought. The escalation of Federal force is apparent when that is considered. It behooves us to recall both incidents, among others.

Funny how talking about both, I spaced which the thread started out on...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 02:49:37 am by Smokin Joe »
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Online Bigun

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2017, 02:47:01 am »
The Ruby Ridge standoff was first (August 21-August 30, 1992).  The Waco Massacre came a few months later (February 28 -April 19, 1993). 

The Ruby Ridge incident occurred near the end of the GHWB administration.  The Waco debacle was in the first year of Clinton's administration.

The Ruby Ridge incident was absolutely disgusting, to be sure, but the Waco massacre was an order of magnitude more horrific. A sergeant with the Texas Rangers told me that David Koresh had been willing to surrender to the Texas Rangers, but the Feds refused to allow that.  In other words, the Feds could have defused the situation, but they were not interested.

The only four Feds killed during the Waco siege were Secret Service agents who had formerly served on Clinton's Presidential Protection Detail.  A lot of folks in Texas believe that the Waco debacle was a body-laundering operation for Clinton.  The Ranger I talked to said that practically everything the Feds did in the siege and its aftermath and in the subsequent investigation was over-the-top crooked.

The Rangers hated the Feds at that time--and probably still don't trust them any further than they can spit.   

A former head of  the Texas Rangers  grew up right across the street from me.  He was at Waco and  pretty much confired all that you said to me several times.  The feds he rails most about are the dip dunks at ATF and he is entirely right 'about them. 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline montanajoe

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2017, 02:47:06 am »
Old Jerry is an old school lawyer whom I respect and admire.

In law schools it is still taught that the lawyer is obligated to give the client the best effort they are capable of regardless of their personal  political belief's. However, many in the legal profession today will only represent a client who agrees with their political philosophy.

That trend represents a great loss to both the American legal system and to the country as a whole...

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2017, 02:51:23 am »
Old Jerry is an old school lawyer whom I respect and admire.

In law schools it is still taught that the lawyer is obligated to give the client the best effort they are capable of regardless of their personal  political belief's. However, many in the legal profession today will only represent a client who agrees with their political philosophy.

That trend represents a great loss to both the American legal system and to the country as a whole...
Agreed all around. Gerry Spence is a man of principle. Sometimes that means you stand up for someone's rights, even when you disagree with their beliefs.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2017, 02:51:37 am »
Well, I guess that raises the question of how the TNG got roped into that operation.

Probably by the direct order of Ma Richards who was the governor at the time.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

geronl

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2017, 06:29:03 am »
These 3 or 4 SF NCO's babysitting,but NOT operating classified electronics,at Waco is what lead to the charges the active duty US Army was involved in the attack on the compound. They weren't.

and the tanks

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2017, 12:21:32 pm »
and the tanks

@geronl

True,the media,who seem to claim to know everything,somehow didn't understand the marking on the tanks were NG markings,or even what that meant.

Why,if I didn't know better,I would think that no one in supervisory positions in the national media had ever served a day in the military,or even knew anything about the military. (/s)
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2017, 01:15:57 pm »
@geronl

True,the media,who seem to claim to know everything,somehow didn't understand the marking on the tanks were NG markings,or even what that meant.

Why,if I didn't know better,I would think that no one in supervisory positions in the national media had ever served a day in the military,or even knew anything about the military. (/s)
Oh, come on pete, I'd bet a bunch of them have either seen NG vehicles before (just before the protest was broken up) and some of them have even sat at (enemy) antiaircraft guns... :whistle:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis