Author Topic: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA  (Read 6363 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2017, 02:54:25 am »
Not bad, but what about a rule unategorically stating that this is the domain of the states?

Because it's not the domain of the states alone. 

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,442
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2017, 03:00:13 am »
The bureaucracy within the EPA has indeed done what all bureaucracies do -- expanded wherever and however it can. 

Even so, it is easy to justify placing a reasonable amount of responsibility for environmental regulation at the federal level.  For one thing, pollution does not remain neatly within state lines.  For another, for a variety of reasons it makes sense to ensure consistent standards between states.  So even if this stupid bill were to pass and be signed (never happen), there would still be a need for a Federal agency with the same mission.

Moreover, it's worth recalling the rather unpleasant history of environmental problems prior to the advent of the EPA and federal environmental legislation in general.  Leaving it to states and individuals didn't work then, and it's naive or disingenuous to claim that things would be any different now.

If Congress really wanted to address problems with the EPA and other agencies, there are better ways of doing it.
Yeah, there would have been changes. When rivers catch fire and burn railroad bridges, something is going to change. The EPA didn't start that change, the mechanisms were already in place. The Rivers and Harbors act goes back to 1899 at the Federal Level.

But rather than just establish a standard the EPA established a bunch of them--for the same thing, one after another.
Those moving target standards are a business killer and no business is too big to not be killed by them.
As for State Standards, let the states work that out. California established its own emissions standards, and that's up to California. California needed them, as did some other places.
We just didn't have a smog problem here, so we didn't need the extra added expense and complexity on our vehicles.

But even beyond the moving target standards, there is the continuous overreach by the EPA. They have no business regulating a puddle in my yard. Nor CO2 as a 'pollutant', nor laying claim to all the water in and below and above the topsoil.

If we know the harmful levels of pollutants, then what more is needed?
If a polluter is affecting people in an adjacent state, then they can be dealt with in one jurisdiction or the other, and that can be sorted out in federal court, because laws exist by which that can be done: see the Clean Water Act of 1972.

What we don't need is an agency which changes the rules with amazing regularity for the purpose of targeting and eliminating industry. That is the role of the EPA in severely damaging the coal industry, and in attempting to find reason to condemn hydraulic fracturing. Especially the latter was a political attack without basis in science, the former based on yet more revised standards. If a 'standard' is under constant revision, I would submit that there is nothing 'standard' about it.

 If a specific level of a pollutant is considered harmful, so be it, If an established level of that pollutant is considered acceptable, there's the standard. It should not need to be revised.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 03:04:10 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2017, 03:04:46 am »
But rather than just establish a standard the EPA established a bunch of them--for the same thing, one after another.
Those moving target standards are a business killer and no business is too big to not be killed by them.
...
But even beyond the moving target standards, there is the continuous overreach by the EPA. They have no business regulating a puddle in my yard. Nor CO2 as a 'pollutant', nor laying claim to all the water in and below and above the topsoil.
...
What we don't need is an agency which changes the rules with amazing regularity. If a specific level of a pollutant is considered harmful, so be it, If an established level of that pollutant is considered acceptable, there's the standard. It should not need to be revised.

We agree on those things.  But what you're laying out is a roadmap for rational reform, not an argument for getting rid of the EPA entirely. 

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,756
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2017, 03:07:32 am »
Because it's not the domain of the states alone.
Do you actually read that in the Constitution? If so, where?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2017, 03:11:33 am »
Do you actually read that in the Constitution? If so, where?

I think it's a reasonable application of the general welfare clause.  I'm not going to waste time arguing it with you.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,442
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2017, 03:43:24 am »
Not bad, but what about a rule unategorically stating that this is the domain of the states?
Not enough.
A standard, once approved, shall remain in effect a minimum of a decade and should be able to be met using current technology on a commercial scale (not just in the lab).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,756
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2017, 04:00:02 am »
I think it's a reasonable application of the general welfare clause.  I'm not going to waste time arguing it with you.
Sounds like a typical butt-ass lib response.

Any others agree?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 04:09:44 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,756
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2017, 04:11:29 am »
Not enough.
A standard, once approved, shall remain in effect a minimum of a decade and should be able to be met using current technology on a commercial scale (not just in the lab).
what does this mean?  I am subject to some arbitrary 10 years for what?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,497
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2017, 04:13:24 am »
Sounds like a typical butt-ass lib response.

Any others agree?

I have him on ignore. Not worth wasting any more of my time with.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,756
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2017, 04:16:29 am »
I have him on ignore. Not worth wasting any more of my time with.
on board
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2017, 04:28:32 am »
Sounds like a typical butt-ass lib response.

Any others agree?

Which typically idiotic response is why I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you.

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2017, 04:29:14 am »
I have him on ignore. Not worth wasting any more of my time with.

Coward.

Offline Suppressed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,921
  • Gender: Male
    • Avatar
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2017, 04:39:55 am »
Not enough.
A standard, once approved, shall remain in effect a minimum of a decade and should be able to be met using current technology on a commercial scale (not just in the lab).

So when scientific knowledge improves, and a standard is seen to not be protective of human health, we just say, "sorry, parents, you'll just have to deal with little Johnny's birth defects...we can't change to a more appropriate standard until he's 8."

Got it.
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline corbe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 38,722
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2017, 04:42:13 am »
Coward.


    I too, know better than to argue with you.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,442
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2017, 06:08:27 am »
what does this mean?  I am subject to some arbitrary 10 years for what?

If there must be federally established emissions/effluent standards at all (and unless adjacent and/or downstream states can agree on standards, there would have to be some sort of arbitration), the idea is that at least you would know what to expect for the 10 years or more, instead of having it change every two or three. A chance to recoup some capital investment from the last remodel.
 
Establishing those standards would be the one thing, like standardizing weights and measures, which I could see done at the federal level. More stringent standards would be up to the State and Local jurisdictions where specific problems exist, but would not impose a requirement on those outside of those jurisdictions.

The technology would have to exist to meet the standard and be scalable as well, to prevent some requirement of technology which does not exist.
If advancements were made and desirable, that option to use newer tech would be there, as methodology would not be specified, only the results.

Whether the agency is eliminated or not, there need to be protections for people to fill holes on their property, have a stock pond, and the like without being sued off their land by a politically driven agency.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 07:00:33 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,442
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2017, 06:14:56 am »
So when scientific knowledge improves, and a standard is seen to not be protective of human health, we just say, "sorry, parents, you'll just have to deal with little Johnny's birth defects...we can't change to a more appropriate standard until he's 8."

Got it.
What standard now is not protective of human health?
I'm out to cut down on the kind of regulatory abuse that was done to the coal fired power generation industry, where the standards change in too rapid succession to finish the upgrades and get back in operation before the plant has to be refit, again.

You find out something new about something new, establish a standard. Just make sure it isn't some half-assed thing that will be remodeled every year.
IF you want any industry in this country, that industry needs an environment that it can plan expenditures and at least project some ROI. Make that too uncertain, and all you'll have to do is wonder where (else) it was made, because it won't be here.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Norm Lenhart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,773
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2017, 07:05:24 am »
Imagine my complete lack of surprise as I read yet ANOTHER thread littered with so called conservatives suddenly shaking in their Birkenstocks at the remote possibility that an agency they screamed for years to close...may be closed.

Imagine also my complete lack of surprise that so called conservatives have a real problem with our Constitution. Because the Constitution as written does not make exceptions for people upset that 'left to the states" means exactly that. There are no special snowflake clauses that say "If my desire for X may be interfered with then none of this applies."

« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 07:06:34 am by Norm Lenhart »

Offline Norm Lenhart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,773
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2017, 10:23:19 am »
Coward.

More like 'wise use of his time'. Now I on the other hand, enjoy watching the leftist positions flow out of you on a variety of threads and topics. I find it instructive to watch you try achieving anti-conservative ends by attempting to convince people your position is reasonable and any opposing are extremist or damaging to the cause/country/whatever.

It's like watching a car crash. I just can't look away. And my day isn't really complete until you tell me how poor my life must be.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 10:27:36 am by Norm Lenhart »

Offline bigheadfred

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,775
  • Gender: Male
  • One day Closer
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2017, 12:41:22 pm »
What better ways do you recommend?

Ask me.

If you take a look at all the agencies, departments, committees, commissions, councils, services, offices, managements, advisors, blah, blah, blah of the federal government it should be easy to hand over the responsibilities of the EPA to these other parties.

Kill the EPA.

And there are things the states could do, or would rather do, for themselves.

Start with returning federal land to the states.

She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline rodamala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,534
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2017, 01:50:50 pm »
If another Deepwater Horizon occurs, who foots the bill for clean-up?

BP.

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,497
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2017, 01:59:27 pm »
So when scientific knowledge improves, and a standard is seen to not be protective of human health, we just say, "sorry, parents, you'll just have to deal with little Johnny's birth defects...we can't change to a more appropriate standard until he's 8."

Got it.

You clearly have NO idea what this is really all about so I will enlighten you. It is NOT about protecting the health of little Johnny or anyone else for that matter!  What it IS about is protecting megacorp from competition that would be there IF all the little guys could afford to get on the playing field. It is also about protecting the very same megacorp from lawsuits arising form their practice of putting .03 PPM of xchemical in their product when the federal standard is no more than .04 PPM. Try suing them when little Johnny gets sick from repeatedly ingesting the .03 PPM product and see how far you get with that!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,497
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2017, 02:03:30 pm »
Ask me.

If you take a look at all the agencies, departments, committees, commissions, councils, services, offices, managements, advisors, blah, blah, blah of the federal government it should be easy to hand over the responsibilities of the EPA to these other parties.

Kill the EPA.

And there are things the states could do, or would rather do, for themselves.

Start with returning federal land to the states.

Speaking of which, can anyone show me the part of the constitution which allows the federal government to own land within the boundaries of any state that is not a Fort, Magazine, Post Office, Court House, or Federal office building?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,442
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2017, 02:06:43 pm »
Ask me.

If you take a look at all the agencies, departments, committees, commissions, councils, services, offices, managements, advisors, blah, blah, blah of the federal government it should be easy to hand over the responsibilities of the EPA to these other parties.

Kill the EPA.

And there are things the states could do, or would rather do, for themselves.

Start with returning federal land to the states.
888high58888
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,756
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2017, 04:20:26 pm »
If there must be federally established emissions/effluent standards at all (and unless adjacent and/or downstream states can agree on standards, there would have to be some sort of arbitration), the idea is that at least you would know what to expect for the 10 years or more, instead of having it change every two or three. A chance to recoup some capital investment from the last remodel.
 
Establishing those standards would be the one thing, like standardizing weights and measures, which I could see done at the federal level. More stringent standards would be up to the State and Local jurisdictions where specific problems exist, but would not impose a requirement on those outside of those jurisdictions.

The technology would have to exist to meet the standard and be scalable as well, to prevent some requirement of technology which does not exist.
If advancements were made and desirable, that option to use newer tech would be there, as methodology would not be specified, only the results.

Whether the agency is eliminated or not, there need to be protections for people to fill holes on their property, have a stock pond, and the like without being sued off their land by a politically driven agency.
I understand the difficulties involved in people getting changed standards every couple of years and the desire to extend the timeframe to make it more predictable.

However, the government we exist under changes fluidly and cannot be barred from making a change regardless.

No regulation, law or even the Constitution is permanent under our system of government, although some come close.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Emjay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,687
  • Gender: Female
  • Womp, womp
Re: Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2017, 04:22:40 pm »
March 7, 2017 By Colleen Conley
Wait Until You Read This ONE Sentence In Bill Regarding The EPA

President Donald Trump made it clear throughout his candidacy that he would eliminate the EPA and it onerous, job-killing regulations, many of which are based on faux-science.

A new bill sponsored by US Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) has been submitted to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, as well as the Committee on Agriculture. The body of the bill includes only one sentence.

    The Environmental Protection Agency shall terminate on December 31, 2018.

You read that correctly. If the bill passes the GOP majority House and Senate, the EPA will cease to exist in less than two years.

http://rightalerts.com/wait-until-you-read-this-one-sentence-in-bill-regarding-the-epa/

Yes.  Cut off the head but don't leave any little tentacles to come back and haunt us later.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.