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rangerrebew

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VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« on: February 25, 2017, 09:58:04 pm »
VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?

Traces of the lethal chemical, smeared on Kim Jong-nam’s face at a Malaysian airport, can penetrate skin and kill fast

    By David Bradley, ChemistryWorld on February 24, 2017

 

The lethal nerve agent VX has been revealed to be the murder weapon used to kill Kim Jong-nam, the estranged half-brother of North Korean leader Kim Jong-un. The victim was attacked from behind at Kuala Lumpur airport in Malaysia by two female assailants who smeared his face with a cloth. Kim Jong-nam sought help from officials, complaining of pain in his face and died following a seizure on the way to hospital.

Initial reports from the Malaysian authorities suggested that he had been pricked with at least one needle loaded with poison or sprayed in the face with a liquid. But this was not apparent in the grainy CCTV footage and attention quickly turned to what poison may have been to be so quick acting. Suggestions were made that some form of cyanide may have been used or more speculatively ricin. The media in Japan suggested tetrodotoxin as the agent.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vx-nerve-agent-in-north-koreans-murder-how-does-it-work/
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 09:58:46 pm by rangerrebew »

Offline EC

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 01:16:26 am »
How does VX work?

Very well, thank you.
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Offline anubias

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 01:34:14 am »
Good enough evidently.

Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 08:32:28 pm »
VX is a nuerotoxin..bug spray

I'm not sure I'm buying this story. VX is so lethal that it's hard for me to imagine a couple of little dollies could have walked up to this guy spray him with this stuff and walked away without ingesting a lethal dose themselves...just handling the stuff in an airport without contaminating the place seems ....unlikely :whistle:

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2017, 08:49:05 pm »
VX is a nuerotoxin..bug spray

I'm not sure I'm buying this story. VX is so lethal that it's hard for me to imagine a couple of little dollies could have walked up to this guy spray him with this stuff and walked away without ingesting a lethal dose themselves...just handling the stuff in an airport without contaminating the place seems ....unlikely :whistle:
Way more overkill than would be needed. It's well beyond swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.
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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 01:13:16 pm »
VX is a nuerotoxin..bug spray

I'm not sure I'm buying this story. VX is so lethal that it's hard for me to imagine a couple of little dollies could have walked up to this guy spray him with this stuff and walked away without ingesting a lethal dose themselves...just handling the stuff in an airport without contaminating the place seems ....unlikely :whistle:

It can be used as a binary compound, which means it isn't poisonous until the two components are mixed, and the mixing can take place quickly, so each woman could have had one of the two compounds in liquid form, those would be mixed on his skin when they both made contact, without having to spray active VX around, and voila: almost instant death.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 01:22:53 pm »
It can be used as a binary compound, which means it isn't poisonous until the two components are mixed, and the mixing can take place quickly, so each woman could have had one of the two compounds in liquid form, those would be mixed on his skin when they both made contact, without having to spray active VX around, and voila: almost instant death.
A rag in a bag, dump the components in, Pull bag back and wipe his face. Close bag, dump bag and gloves. Leave. Apply the compound as a liquid not an aerosol. It's transdermal too, and would be inhaled as it evaporated from the skin as well as be absorbed. Little or no collateral damage, 'surgical' hit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)
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Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 06:19:27 pm »
I guess the question is where these a couple of dollies off the street paid a hundred bucks to participate in what they thought was a prank or were they trained North Korean agents able to deliver a binary incredibility potent nuerotoxin precisely without contaminating themselves or others in the crowded budget terminal. If that's what did happen then the North Koreans have a much more sophisticated intelligence and espionage apparatus than most people give them credit for....

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 06:42:28 pm »
I guess the question is where these a couple of dollies off the street paid a hundred bucks to participate in what they thought was a prank or were they trained North Korean agents able to deliver a binary incredibility potent nuerotoxin precisely without contaminating themselves or others in the crowded budget terminal. If that's what did happen then the North Koreans have a much more sophisticated intelligence and espionage apparatus than most people give them credit for....
Or someone hired a pro to do the hit. Just a couple of dollies would likely have been exposed, too, and found not too far away, (unless someone was picking up afterwards).

When you consider the LD50  for humans (the dosage which kills about half of those exposed to that amount) is about ten milligrams of the liquid on skin, it didn't take a lot.
VX has a viscosity about that of motor oil and can be mixed with clay or talc to thicken it.
That would make it easier to avoid collateral damage than an aerosol.

Bag the rag/sponge/whatever (or have it in a bag to begin with) seal it, dump it, wear surgical gloves inside regular gloves, strip off the outers, then the surgical gloves and wash up and go.  A little care and luck, and the delivery people don't get messy or breathe much in, and no one but the target does either, unless they are trying to render assistance.

There is a chance, if they aren't 'official' N. Korean agents (contractors), that they were moved out and eliminated to cover tracks.
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C S Lewis

Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 07:25:34 pm »
The initial reports I read said he had approached airport security seeking help. Just seems improbable to me that if the stuff, no matter how viscus or how cut with filler could have been completely wiped away within a few seconds so as to not contaminate and kill others trying to render assistance. I've been through KUL several times but not through the budget terminal, its a beautiful airport and very busy, just can't see how a chemical agent with the lethality of VX could be used in that crowded place to take out just one individual without a lot of collateral damage.

Unfortunately don't think we will never know the entire truth. Knowing that part of the world as I do I'd suspect that if the North Koreans are sophisticated enough to pull off a targeted VX attack, they are also using the less sophisticated cash to influence how this story is being reported by the government there...

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 08:01:17 pm »
The initial reports I read said he had approached airport security seeking help. Just seems improbable to me that if the stuff, no matter how viscus or how cut with filler could have been completely wiped away within a few seconds so as to not contaminate and kill others trying to render assistance. I've been through KUL several times but not through the budget terminal, its a beautiful airport and very busy, just can't see how a chemical agent with the lethality of VX could be used in that crowded place to take out just one individual without a lot of collateral damage.

Unfortunately don't think we will never know the entire truth. Knowing that part of the world as I do I'd suspect that if the North Koreans are sophisticated enough to pull off a targeted VX attack, they are also using the less sophisticated cash to influence how this story is being reported by the government there...
At a LD50 of ten milligrams, (one 100th of a gram)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)
a rag wiped on the skin of the face and/or neck would likely do it. The stuff is liquid, the consistency of motor oil and is a transdermal poison. It isn't like Sarin gas (low volatility/high latency), and would be ideal for just such a hit, without exposing a large number of others (provided they didn't touch his skin where the VX had been applied).  While it can be inhaled, the skin contact would be more effective. It takes about five times as much inhaled, and the first reaction unaffected people have (in general) to someone collapsing is to get back out of the way and give them some air...with low volatility, that exposure would be limited.
The victim would know he'd been poisoned and seek help. Early symptoms of percutaneous exposure (skin contact) may be local muscular twitching or sweating at the area of exposure followed by nausea or vomiting. He'd look sick, facial sweating, twitching, and sick to his stomach.
Collateral lethality would depend on cutaneous exposure, and that would generally be unlikely except for possibly guards or EMS; the latter commonly wear gloves to protect from serologically borne diseases.

If you think about putting motor oil on a shop rag or sponge and sneaking up behind someone with the sponge/rag in a ziplock or similar bag, opening the bag and smearing it on them, stuffing the rag back in the bag, sealing it and bugging out. Yeah, it's do-able. Discard the bag, shuck the gloves to protect the operator (double gloved, one set at a time), and walk out. The stuff likely ended up in a trash can somewhere in a sealed bag. Dump the first pair of gloves ASAP, the next pair soon after, and common contact surfaces would be clean--no collateral exposure, no directional trail to follow.

Just think about how you would do it if you had to, and the method becomes more apparent.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 08:29:26 pm »
I certainly think your scenario is possible, its just that knowing that part of the world like I do, I find things like EMT's wearing gloves problematic :laugh:
The crowds and the tendency of the Asians to be much more hands on especially if some one appears sick just makes the story not quite ring true for me :shrug:


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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 08:48:57 pm »
I certainly think your scenario is possible, its just that knowing that part of the world like I do, I find things like EMT's wearing gloves problematic :laugh:
The crowds and the tendency of the Asians to be much more hands on especially if some one appears sick just makes the story not quite ring true for me :shrug:
Somewhere there was security cam video of the assault.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/14/kim-jong-un-half-brother-reportedly-killed-malaysia-north-korea (not it, but some info)
Found it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/kim-jong-nam-assassination-north-korea-new-security-camera-footage/
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 08:59:49 pm »
Thanks for that.

Which brings up more questions in my mind...If someone comes up to you and wipes something on your face isn't it natural that you would immediately reach up and wipe it off?  and if it was a viscous goo of VX wouldn't the next person you touched get a lethal dose...

Looking at that make me think that the rag to the face may have been a faint and the other woman may have injected him with a lethal drug during the commotion.  :shrug:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 09:06:47 pm »
Thanks for that.

Which brings up more questions in my mind...If someone comes up to you and wipes something on your face isn't it natural that you would immediately reach up and wipe it off?  and if it was a viscous goo of VX wouldn't the next person you touched get a lethal dose...

Looking at that make me think that the rag to the face may have been a faint and the other woman may have injected him with a lethal drug during the commotion.  :shrug:
Chances are you'd wipe it off with your hand. Either skin contact or injection might work, but VX is trans dermal, 1/100 of a gram might not have been hard to absorb, especially if she got it on mucous membranes. IOW, dead man walking. Injections always go smoothly in the movies, but with a resisting target, much could go wrong (bent/broken/deflected (by article of clothing or jewelry) needle, syringe knocked aside or out of the hands of the attacker). The GFF would be higher with an injection. Smearing something oily on someone's face would be relatively simple and only require gross motor movements versus the finer movements needed to achieve a successful injection. .
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 09:07:36 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 09:20:37 pm »
I'm thinking more of an EPI pen type of a thing....Trans dermal. Injecting a pre-loaded EPI with VX during the commotion makes sense to me, seems like a rag to the face is just to sloppy to not have contaminated and killed others. A VX EPI would be something that I would expect from Kim ...although its not his preferred method eg anti aircraft guns ^-^

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 10:07:16 pm »
Chances are you'd wipe it off with your hand. Either skin contact or injection might work, but VX is trans dermal, 1/100 of a gram might not have been hard to absorb, especially if she got it on mucous membranes. IOW, dead man walking. Injections always go smoothly in the movies, but with a resisting target, much could go wrong (bent/broken/deflected (by article of clothing or jewelry) needle, syringe knocked aside or out of the hands of the attacker). The GFF would be higher with an injection. Smearing something oily on someone's face would be relatively simple and only require gross motor movements versus the finer movements needed to achieve a successful injection. .

Just a gentle point on technique: You don't use a syringe. You use a sealed syrette - as the short needle (no bending - you don't need to find a vein) punctures the skin, it also breaks the seal holding the contents in place and the force of your hand injects the contents, but you give it a squeeze, to be sure.

Use morphine ones in the field if needed. They can be filled with other substances just as easily.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 11:31:15 pm »
Just a gentle point on technique: You don't use a syringe. You use a sealed syrette - as the short needle (no bending - you don't need to find a vein) punctures the skin, it also breaks the seal holding the contents in place and the force of your hand injects the contents, but you give it a squeeze, to be sure.

Use morphine ones in the field if needed. They can be filled with other substances just as easily.
There is no need to inject VX. It is a contact poison. That, and low volatility (it doesn't evaporate readily) are what make it such nasty stuff. Odorless, too. Someone can walk in, touch surfaces contaminated with it and die. Lovely, isn't it? Banned by international agreement.

All they had to do was smear it on his skin. LD50 (the dose that kills half of any group) is 1/100th of a gram (10 milligrams). One good smear on the face (the skin almost everyone has exposed), and the guy is done. Simple as that. NO special equipment to be 'caught with', no needles or syrettes to explain. See the link I provided in an earlier post to see the properties of this stuff. If you wipe at your face with your hand, you have just expanded the area exposed.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:32:26 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2017, 12:37:39 am »
There is no need to inject VX. It is a contact poison. That, and low volatility (it doesn't evaporate readily) are what make it such nasty stuff. Odorless, too. Someone can walk in, touch surfaces contaminated with it and die. Lovely, isn't it? Banned by international agreement.

All they had to do was smear it on his skin. LD50 (the dose that kills half of any group) is 1/100th of a gram (10 milligrams). One good smear on the face (the skin almost everyone has exposed), and the guy is done. Simple as that. NO special equipment to be 'caught with', no needles or syrettes to explain. See the link I provided in an earlier post to see the properties of this stuff. If you wipe at your face with your hand, you have just expanded the area exposed.

Smokin not disagreeing just enjoying your informed point of view..
 
That said I'll babble on, I think this is obviously a state hit. The individuals involved probably were gone on flights within the hour. I don't believe VX was used although its possible that they have perfected another method of delivery, It seems to me, from looking at the cam, that this was a staged scuffle and hit showing a sophistication of the Norks that we in the west purposely turn a blind too...  I'll bet that the Malaysian courts will find insufficient  evidence and will acquit  all charged with this incident    .

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2017, 01:09:49 am »
Smokin not disagreeing just enjoying your informed point of view..
 
That said I'll babble on, I think this is obviously a state hit. The individuals involved probably were gone on flights within the hour. I don't believe VX was used although its possible that they have perfected another method of delivery, It seems to me, from looking at the cam, that this was a staged scuffle and hit showing a sophistication of the Norks that we in the west purposely turn a blind too...  I'll bet that the Malaysian courts will find insufficient  evidence and will acquit  all charged with this incident    .
I agree it was likely state sanctioned, maybe a relative?  :laugh:

I think the Malay courts and police will be under significant pressure to convict and prevent total loss of face over the incident. I wouldn't bank on acquittals in a high profile case, even if they did just 'round up the usual suspects'.

Whoever decided to use VX is sophisticated anyway, and intelligent enough to figure there may be a way to get away with it. There might have been other more subtle ways to do the same thing, but sometimes being blatant sends a message, too.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline montanajoe

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2017, 03:12:06 am »
I agree it was likely state sanctioned, maybe a relative?  :laugh:

I think the Malay courts and police will be under significant pressure to convict and prevent total loss of face over the incident. I wouldn't bank on acquittals in a high profile case, even if they did just 'round up the usual suspects'.

Whoever decided to use VX is sophisticated anyway, and intelligent enough to figure there may be a way to get away with it. There might have been other more subtle ways to do the same thing, but sometimes being blatant sends a message, too.

That's exactly what the Nokus wanted to do in my opinion. This was a statement that N. Korea will not be ignored..

Offline driftdiver

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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2017, 01:59:55 pm »
Maybe it was a statement from the Chinese to little Kim: tow the line or you are next.

@Scutter

China already cut coal exports to NK by 50%, thats a heck of a message.  Plus this guy was a threat to little Kim and could have potentially took over NK.  He's been in hiding for some years as has his son.   They aren't hiding from China though.

I lived in SK for three years and have in laws there now.  From what they are saying in SK news and govt reports this was a hit by Kim to eliminate a threat.
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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2017, 07:13:50 pm »
@driftdiver
Ok, thanks for that info. I am amazed that the Kims have managed to stay in power for so long. Just seems like someone would have gotten to him before now.

@Scutter
I've asked that same question.  The consensus seems to be that its not just the Kims.  They have an inner circle that all benefit from the way things are.   They work to keep the Kims in power because that keeps the gravy train rolling.

When Bush put a sanction on luxury items it was the support of these people he was going after.   They like their fancy booze and such.
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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2017, 10:57:07 pm »
@Scutter
I've asked that same question.  The consensus seems to be that its not just the Kims.  They have an inner circle that all benefit from the way things are.   They work to keep the Kims in power because that keeps the gravy train rolling.

When Bush put a sanction on luxury items it was the support of these people he was going after.   They like their fancy booze and such.
It's all fun and games untill somebody gets fed to the dogs, or the AA guns. Little Kim has more ways to kill people than Blofeld.
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Re: VX Nerve Agent in North Korean's Murder: How Does It Work?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2017, 12:22:08 am »
@Scutter

China already cut coal exports to NK by 50%, thats a heck of a message.  Plus this guy was a threat to little Kim and could have potentially took over NK.  He's been in hiding for some years as has his son.   They aren't hiding from China though.

I lived in SK for three years and have in laws there now.  From what they are saying in SK news and govt reports this was a hit by Kim to eliminate a threat.

Thank you for that.  :beer:
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