Author Topic: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)  (Read 23150 times)

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Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #225 on: March 01, 2017, 05:22:24 pm »
That had been the law in this country LONG before the ACA ever came along and, as far as I can determine, still will be if the ACA is fully repealed!

Health CARE and Health INSURANCE are not the same thing!

So your answer to my question would be ... yes?

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #226 on: March 01, 2017, 05:26:17 pm »
So your answer to my question would be ... yes?

Actually I didn't say that did I?

MY personal answer would be no!  But I'm not a socialist!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline CSM

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #227 on: March 01, 2017, 05:30:02 pm »
C'mon,  CSM,  play fair.   Abolishing the 3 to 1 ratio rule will immediately lower the premiums that younger workers pay, because they won't be subsidizing older workers.  Meanwhile, an effective means for employers to satisfy their own mandate requirements by providing cash to encourage employees to go to the ACA exchanges will bring more younger, healthier lives into the pool of insurables.  Again, the bottom line is lower premiums as the risk is spread among a larger pool.  That's insurance 101,  not evidence that I'm not "sincere" in wanting the working poor to have affordable insurance.   

Shouldn't you be supporting single payer, where insurance is paid for out of general tax revenues?  If your concern is the working poor,  that's the means by which coverage can be made most affordable, but letting the rich subsidize the poor.     

First, I am playing fair.  You claim to be concerned about the "working poor," however the realities and results of big government programs brings harm to those people.  It happens every time, no matter the program.  Progressives therefore only use the term in order to advance their own preferred big government programs, they use the term "working poor" as an emotional hammer.  It isn't about real concern. 

If it were about real concern, then you would not be advocating the very thing that I showed you actually harms the working poor.  Instead, you just keep advancing an agenda that conforms to your own preferred big government program.  You can try to twist and turn the language, but the fact will remain that entire objective of big government health insurance is to redistribute wealth.  It just so happens to steal from the younger generations (poor) to give to the older generations (rich.) 

Second, no I would never advocate single payer, or any such thing.  You are offering a false narrative that our only choice is between fixing the ACA and going to single payer.  That is a false choice from someone that has no faith in man and turns to the government to solve all of life's ills.  The fact of the matter is that we would have an unlimited number of options, if we were to let the market work.

Third, I never said that the working poor was my concern. You used them to advance your agenda, which is very typical of utopians.  I showed you how your concern is false and your response is saying that my concern for them is false.  Hence, you have proven my very point.

Finally, you also seem to be conflating Health Insurance with actual Medical Care.  I will concede that many other societies have better rates of "insurance," however I assure you that our society offers the broadest and most comprehensive medical care.  Our survival rates from disease are the best in the world, we have the broadest coverage of services in the world, we have the most medicines available, and on and on and on.  The best way to "knock America down a notch" is to continue down the path of centralizing the health insurance market.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #228 on: March 01, 2017, 05:31:00 pm »
I said it's tough to answer.


That's the truth.

Actually, my specific question is only tough to answer if your answer is "no." 

It's actually easy to answer "yes."  But in that case the hard part is, of course, to figure out the best way of discharging the moral obligation -- especially when it includes people whose own bad behavior contributes to their ill-health.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #229 on: March 01, 2017, 05:34:30 pm »
Actually I didn't say that did I?

MY personal answer would be no!  But I'm not a socialist!

How nice that you're not a socialist.

So your answer is that as a society we have no moral obligation to help those who cannot afford basic health care.


Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #230 on: March 01, 2017, 05:36:24 pm »
Food, housing, cellphones, Insurance, wifi, cars, jobs, college, labradoodles, Pappy Van Winkle...

Got to draw the line somewhere.

So if you saw a sick kid without the necessary access to medical care ... let's make it a chronic condition.  Where do you draw the line with her?  Let her die?

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #231 on: March 01, 2017, 05:36:52 pm »
How nice that you're not a socialist.

So your answer is that as a society we have no moral obligation to help those who cannot afford basic health care.

That's right! That's what Churches are for!  The government has no role what-so-ever!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline CSM

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #232 on: March 01, 2017, 05:38:36 pm »
Or is fairness something a "rugged individualist" and self-appointed expert on "conservatism" like you doesn't give a damn about?   

Be careful when you charge "socialism" - we all get sick at one time or another,  and the fortunate subsidize the less fortunate under just about any system you care to devise.   

Of course we all care about fairness.  The difference is that you believe in fairness of outcome, and I believe in fairness under the law and fairness of opportunity.  Fairness of outcome leads to "equal misery for all" while fairness of opportunity lifts entire societies.  Do you know where everything is fair in outcome for 99% of the folks in their societies?  There are many on the continent of Africa, or you could research N. Korea, Cuba or Venezuala.  Personally, I want people to thrive, not to suffer. 

Then you use the term "the fortunate" that subsidize the "less fortunate."  Your language is filled with progressive speak.  I actually find it rather sad that you're so trapped by something that is so very wrong.  How about we use an example closer to home?  I live in the Detroit metro area and I can tell you that the 50+ years of progressivism has absolutely devastated the black culture of what used to be one of the wealthiest cities in the world!  Rather than learn from such examples, progressives will just continue to push the same policies to a wider and wider audience, then they will act surprised with more and more people suffer.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #233 on: March 01, 2017, 05:40:09 pm »
That's right! That's what Churches are for!  The government has no role what-so-ever!

I asked, "as a society,"  do we have a moral obligation?  You said no and yes in the same response.... but here you seem to be saying, "yes?"  Or is it no?


Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #234 on: March 01, 2017, 05:41:42 pm »
Then you use the term "the fortunate" that subsidize the "less fortunate."  Your language is filled with progressive speak.

Well, let me ask you the same question I've asked others: do we, as a society, have a moral obligation to ensure that people who cannot afford it, have access to basic medical care?


Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #235 on: March 01, 2017, 05:43:25 pm »
I asked, "as a society,"  do we have a moral obligation?  You said no and yes in the same response.... but here you seem to be saying, "yes?"  Or is it no?

The government should have no role!  As individual citizens yes we do but only if we freely choose to participate.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline CSM

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #236 on: March 01, 2017, 05:43:52 pm »
You fail to appreciate that liberty .......

Look, I'm an old man from an era when conservatism wasn't about selfishness. 

But the conservatism of my generation is denounced as liberalism these days,     

You have absolutely no understanding of liberty.  You can't.  Given that Liberty is inextricably linked with responsibility, and that you want the gov't to assume all manners of responsibility for individuals, then you show that you have no understanding of the very concept.

I have to wonder if the "conservatism" you reference is from the Teddy Roosevelt era, perhaps Richard Nixon, or Ford.  Just so you know, they were progressives as well.  If you understood liberty, you would recognize progressivism immediately, no matter what letter they have after their name.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #237 on: March 01, 2017, 05:45:46 pm »
So, answer me a basic question: do we as a society have any moral obligation to ensure that people who can't afford it, have access to basic medical care?
It is your belief they do not?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #238 on: March 01, 2017, 05:47:01 pm »
You have absolutely no understanding of liberty.  You can't.  Given that Liberty is inextricably linked with responsibility, and that you want the gov't to assume all manners of responsibility for individuals, then you show that you have no understanding of the very concept.

I have to wonder if the "conservatism" you reference is from the Teddy Roosevelt era, perhaps Richard Nixon, or Ford.  Just so you know, they were progressives as well.  If you understood liberty, you would recognize progressivism immediately, no matter what letter they have after their name.

Well said and I concur!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #239 on: March 01, 2017, 05:47:03 pm »
Which is the result of socialism EVERY single time it's tried!

Spoken by someone who gets both Social Security and Medicare.  You, sir, are thriving as the result of big government socialism.   
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #240 on: March 01, 2017, 05:47:54 pm »
So, answer me a basic question: do we as a society have any moral obligation to ensure that people who can't afford it, have access to basic medical care?
One other thing:  Do you believe it moral for someone who chooses not to work to have their medical paid for by others?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #241 on: March 01, 2017, 05:50:10 pm »
The government should have no role!  As individual citizens yes we do but only if we freely choose to participate.

Damn, son.  You just can't abide a straight yes or no answer, can you?

We have a moral obligation, but only if we decide for ourselves that it's an obligation?  In other words ... that's no obligation at all.

So I'll put you down as a "no."


Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #242 on: March 01, 2017, 05:51:59 pm »
It is your belief they do not?

As stated above, I think we, as a society, have a moral obligation to ensure access to basic health care.  Ways and means are open to discussion.

How would you answer the question?

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #243 on: March 01, 2017, 05:52:11 pm »
Damn, son.  You just can't abide a straight yes or no answer, can you?

We have a moral obligation, but only if we decide for ourselves that it's an obligation?  In other words ... that's no obligation at all.

So I'll put you down as a "no."

That is what FREEDOM is all about son!  Get that through your damn thick head!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #244 on: March 01, 2017, 05:55:07 pm »
Of course we all care about fairness.  The difference is that you believe in fairness of outcome, and I believe in fairness under the law and fairness of opportunity.  Fairness of outcome leads to "equal misery for all" while fairness of opportunity lifts entire societies.  Do you know where everything is fair in outcome for 99% of the folks in their societies?  There are many on the continent of Africa, or you could research N. Korea, Cuba or Venezuala.  Personally, I want people to thrive, not to suffer. 

Then you use the term "the fortunate" that subsidize the "less fortunate."  Your language is filled with progressive speak.  I actually find it rather sad that you're so trapped by something that is so very wrong.  How about we use an example closer to home?  I live in the Detroit metro area and I can tell you that the 50+ years of progressivism has absolutely devastated the black culture of what used to be one of the wealthiest cities in the world!  Rather than learn from such examples, progressives will just continue to push the same policies to a wider and wider audience, then they will act surprised with more and more people suffer.

Your schtick is both boring and idiotic.   I do not propose fairness of outcome - just some basic fairness with respect to access to health care insurance.   The current system creates enormous and arbitrary disparities,  not based on virtue, not even based on income, but on the sheer good fortune of working for an employer that provides good group health insurance.   
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 06:14:49 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #245 on: March 01, 2017, 05:55:40 pm »
That is what FREEDOM is all about son!  Get that through your damn thick head!

"FREEDOM" means you don't have to shoulder moral obligations unless you want to?  Got it.

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #246 on: March 01, 2017, 05:58:47 pm »
"FREEDOM" means you don't have to shoulder moral obligations unless you want to?  Got it.

Good! It's about damned time!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #247 on: March 01, 2017, 05:59:41 pm »
One other thing:  Do you believe it moral for someone who chooses not to work to have their medical paid for by others?

The topic is access to health insurance by the working poor - many of whom work multiple jobs to survive but can't get health coverage.   This is typical "Christian" conservative bullshite - claiming the poor deserve bupkis because they lack virtue.

 
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #248 on: March 01, 2017, 06:00:10 pm »
Good! It's about damned time!

I've had your number for quite a while, Bigun.  You don't think before typing and you don't think past the next insult.  You're just a typical internet loudmouth.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #249 on: March 01, 2017, 06:01:04 pm »
Good! It's about damned time!
But you insist on sucking off the taxpayers' teat by cashing those SS checks and handing your medical bills off to the government.

What a flippin' hypocrite you are.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide