Author Topic: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)  (Read 23004 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #250 on: March 01, 2017, 06:01:40 pm »
I've had your number for quite a while, Bigun.  You don't think before typing and you don't think past the next insult.  You're just a typical internet loudmouth.

I've had yours for awhile as well!

It's still a relatively free country and you are entitled to your opinions!  No one has to share them!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 06:02:30 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #251 on: March 01, 2017, 06:21:06 pm »
The topic is access to health insurance by the working poor - many of whom work multiple jobs to survive but can't get health coverage.   

Actually, no it's not.  If we're honest, it's about access ... period. 

It's pretty easy to say "yes" to the person who's working hard but still can't manage the expense.  It's a lot harder to be charitable toward those who don't even try, for whatever reason -- and there are a lot of people like that. 

I admit that I find it difficult to feel very sorry for the latter, although I feel a great deal of sympathy for their kids, who have no choice in the matter.  For those who don't try, the moral question boils down to whether or not we'd be morally justified in letting them die of treatable conditions.


Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #252 on: March 01, 2017, 06:46:04 pm »
Actually, no it's not.  If we're honest, it's about access ... period. 

It's pretty easy to say "yes" to the person who's working hard but still can't manage the expense.  It's a lot harder to be charitable toward those who don't even try, for whatever reason -- and there are a lot of people like that. 

I admit that I find it difficult to feel very sorry for the latter, although I feel a great deal of sympathy for their kids, who have no choice in the matter.  For those who don't try, the moral question boils down to whether or not we'd be morally justified in letting them die of treatable conditions.
There's a difference between access and buying it for someone. I think it's unfair I don't have access to a Ferrari. After all it's not my fault. Anyways I'm going back to my fainting couch to cry about all the things I don't have access to.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #253 on: March 01, 2017, 06:49:48 pm »
There's a difference between access and buying it for someone.

As a practical matter there's no difference. 

Quote
I think it's unfair I don't have access to a Ferrari. After all it's not my fault. Anyways I'm going back to my fainting couch to cry about all the things I don't have access to.

That's beneath you.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #254 on: March 01, 2017, 09:36:27 pm »
Well, let me ask you the same question I've asked others: do we, as a society, have a moral obligation to ensure that people who cannot afford it, have access to basic medical care?
Society is an abstract. A construct. It has no obligations. it is a set of statistical parameters enforced by a legal system based on a groupthink.
It has no morals, only a consensus.

Morals are an individual thing, just as moral obligations are. When society removes the ability, the resources, and the freedom to follow my individual moral instincts, I have no choice, I can not exercise my personal judgement to feel obligated morally or not--instead, I become legally obligated, or, if you prefer, compelled. With compulsion any morals go out the window. It doesn't matter how good the thing I am compelled to do, I am still compelled.

If it were to be a moral act, I would have to be able to choose to do so or not do so, as my personal, individual, morals made me feel obligated. Without that choice I cannot 'give', because what I might have given has been taken instead.

If The Almighty wanted humans to be automatons, He could have created us that way. He could have made people creatures which could never even entertain doing other than His will.

He didn't do that; He gave us choice. As such, as an individual with the ability to choose a moral, immoral or no act at all, I can exercise a moral obligation--I can have a moral obligation because that is my choice. Compulsion negates that.

There are more vehicles than ever to get the money together to get little Johnny or Julie that operation they so desperately need. Entire communities of people will open their hearts and wallets, and from donation jars on the local checkout counter to fundraisers in the community to websites that bring people who are willing and able to help together with those who desperately need that help, to hospitals which will give medical care with no cost to the parents (because people have already donated), those who need help can get it. Even kids with cleft palettes (Smile Train) overseas, the sick in a multitude of countries (Medicine sans Frontiers), to a host of others like St. Judes Hospital for Children permit that obligation the individual feels to be fulfilled, whether directly or vicariously.

Forcibly taking money from those who may or may not have it in the name of helping those who allegedly don't is more Robin Hood antics on the part of the Left, and stifles the Liberty necessary for an act of charity to mean anything. Therefore no moral obligation is met by the individual. Only coercion.

As for this whole program, aside from forcing more people into situations often worse than they were in--the same productive people who feel moral obligations to help those who need that help, the point is that people who have or suffer from self-inflicted maladies from poor lifestyle choices seek to extract the money to deal with their problems, often exacerbated by their unrepentant behaviour, from others who have worked hard and led a less libertine existence.

That isn't a moral judgement, but medical fact.

If you aren't using IV drugs, sharing needles, or engaging in homosexual or other promiscuous activities, your chances of having a disease (HIV/AIDS) that will cost between $600,000 and $750,000 in the remaining (up to) 25 years of your lifetime for medical care and pharmaceuticals is greatly reduced. It is readily apparent, that for whatever reason that small percentage of the population (an estimated 1.3 million people) enjoys a disproportional influence among the halls of power in Washington, D.C., and those who might have had difficulty getting insurance because of their high risk lifestyles found a friend in the Democrat Party to make sure medical history was not considered, but have sold this among the general population as something to keep poor children from dying an untimely death from an easily treated childhood disease. Where have we heard that battle cry ("For the Childrennn!") before?

While this might benefit some poor people who didn't have insurance before, as to the "working poor", well, there are fewer of them, or they are working two jobs now, because of the negative economic impact of the ACA on small business, forcing employers to cut hours to below full time status because they can't afford to shell out another 2K a month for lower wage employees (effectively doubling wages). Those who have bitten the bullet and complied, expanded their businesses less because of reduced capital, or haven't been giving raises they might have because of the added expense, and some have just shut down entirely.

As usual, the unintended consequences raise their ugly heads.
Moral obligation?   . I have one--to keep my family fed, keep the lights and heat on, keep them clothed, and see to their needs, first. If that sounds selfish, tough shit. It's no more selfish than the howling of people who would take the food out of my children's mouths to pay for their often avoidable maladies when the whole thing has left me not only unable to pay for insurance for my own family, but will take food off my table to punish me for not buying that insurance.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #255 on: March 01, 2017, 10:51:16 pm »
As stated above, I think we, as a society, have a moral obligation to ensure access to basic health care.  Ways and means are open to discussion.

How would you answer the question?
No one is denied health care in this country.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #256 on: March 01, 2017, 10:52:42 pm »
Society is an abstract. A construct. It has no obligations. it is a set of statistical parameters enforced by a legal system based on a groupthink.
It has no morals, only a consensus.

Morals are an individual thing, just as moral obligations are. When society removes the ability, the resources, and the freedom to follow my individual moral instincts, I have no choice, I can not exercise my personal judgement to feel obligated morally or not--instead, I become legally obligated, or, if you prefer, compelled. With compulsion any morals go out the window. It doesn't matter how good the thing I am compelled to do, I am still compelled.

If it were to be a moral act, I would have to be able to choose to do so or not do so, as my personal, individual, morals made me feel obligated. Without that choice I cannot 'give', because what I might have given has been taken instead.

If The Almighty wanted humans to be automatons, He could have created us that way. He could have made people creatures which could never even entertain doing other than His will.

He didn't do that; He gave us choice. As such, as an individual with the ability to choose a moral, immoral or no act at all, I can exercise a moral obligation--I can have a moral obligation because that is my choice. Compulsion negates that.

There are more vehicles than ever to get the money together to get little Johnny or Julie that operation they so desperately need. Entire communities of people will open their hearts and wallets, and from donation jars on the local checkout counter to fundraisers in the community to websites that bring people who are willing and able to help together with those who desperately need that help, to hospitals which will give medical care with no cost to the parents (because people have already donated), those who need help can get it. Even kids with cleft palettes (Smile Train) overseas, the sick in a multitude of countries (Medicine sans Frontiers), to a host of others like St. Judes Hospital for Children permit that obligation the individual feels to be fulfilled, whether directly or vicariously.

Forcibly taking money from those who may or may not have it in the name of helping those who allegedly don't is more Robin Hood antics on the part of the Left, and stifles the Liberty necessary for an act of charity to mean anything. Therefore no moral obligation is met by the individual. Only coercion.

As for this whole program, aside from forcing more people into situations often worse than they were in--the same productive people who feel moral obligations to help those who need that help, the point is that people who have or suffer from self-inflicted maladies from poor lifestyle choices seek to extract the money to deal with their problems, often exacerbated by their unrepentant behaviour, from others who have worked hard and led a less libertine existence.

That isn't a moral judgement, but medical fact.

If you aren't using IV drugs, sharing needles, or engaging in homosexual or other promiscuous activities, your chances of having a disease (HIV/AIDS) that will cost between $600,000 and $750,000 in the remaining (up to) 25 years of your lifetime for medical care and pharmaceuticals is greatly reduced. It is readily apparent, that for whatever reason that small percentage of the population (an estimated 1.3 million people) enjoys a disproportional influence among the halls of power in Washington, D.C., and those who might have had difficulty getting insurance because of their high risk lifestyles found a friend in the Democrat Party to make sure medical history was not considered, but have sold this among the general population as something to keep poor children from dying an untimely death from an easily treated childhood disease. Where have we heard that battle cry ("For the Childrennn!") before?

While this might benefit some poor people who didn't have insurance before, as to the "working poor", well, there are fewer of them, or they are working two jobs now, because of the negative economic impact of the ACA on small business, forcing employers to cut hours to below full time status because they can't afford to shell out another 2K a month for lower wage employees (effectively doubling wages). Those who have bitten the bullet and complied, expanded their businesses less because of reduced capital, or haven't been giving raises they might have because of the added expense, and some have just shut down entirely.

As usual, the unintended consequences raise their ugly heads.
Moral obligation?   . I have one--to keep my family fed, keep the lights and heat on, keep them clothed, and see to their needs, first. If that sounds selfish, tough shit. It's no more selfish than the howling of people who would take the food out of my children's mouths to pay for their often avoidable maladies when the whole thing has left me not only unable to pay for insurance for my own family, but will take food off my table to punish me for not buying that insurance.
Thanks for the long answer. My basic thought was: I ain't born with an IOU to every Tom Dick and Harry. But you said it much better. 

Isn't funny liberals (the politicians NOT any members of this forum) say you can't legislate morality until they find a way to get our money in their pocket. Then they suddenly become the most saintly moralist.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #257 on: March 01, 2017, 10:55:10 pm »
The topic is access to health insurance by the working poor - many of whom work multiple jobs to survive but can't get health coverage.   This is typical "Christian" conservative bullshite - claiming the poor deserve bupkis because they lack virtue.
No, you avoided the question.  You ask about morality in giving the poor a government handout.

I asked you if it is moral to extract money from someone to pay for someone else unwilling to work.

And someone is not virtuous when they refuse to work and exist on govt handouts, nor is it virtuous to steal money to pay for someone else's lethargy.


Twisting words is what a lib does.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #258 on: March 01, 2017, 10:59:50 pm »
That's beneath you.
No, what is beneath him is the pile of s___ some are dishing out.

I wish to only voluntarily gives handouts to people, and do not wish it forcibly extracted.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #259 on: March 01, 2017, 11:11:27 pm »
No, what is beneath him is the pile of s___ some are dishing out.

I wish to only voluntarily gives handouts to people, and do not wish it forcibly extracted.

Do you voluntarily do so now?

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #260 on: March 01, 2017, 11:37:50 pm »
Do you voluntarily do so now?
I do what I am free to do.

Conservatives do without coercing.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #261 on: March 01, 2017, 11:42:06 pm »

As usual, the unintended consequences raise their ugly heads.

Examples abound, but here is one example of giving money to bureaucrats for noble purposes that is misused.

Harvard Officials Accused of Stealing $100K of Funds Meant for the Disabled, Spent it on Sex Toys  http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/01/harvard-officials-accused-stealing-100k-funds-meant-disabled-spent-sex-toys/
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #262 on: March 01, 2017, 11:43:35 pm »
Do you voluntarily do so now?
I do. I'm a firm believer in helping people up with charity (it's not charity if I owe it to someone by the way; that's a debt). Food Drives, Toy drives, our church is involved in charity work. I don't do as much as I'd like, but I try to do as much as I can and teach my kids the same principle. We started a tradition during Christmas where we have the kids pickup out toys for the Toys for Tots program; I think it's a great way help them realize that the season is about giving.

My philosphy in a nutshell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHaJegv6Sjs

To use an example that people often misunderstand: Srooge from the Christmas Carol thought that if he turned his responsibility over to the government and paid his taxes that would be sufficient. As he said "I'm taxed for them isn't that enough?" Of course the point of the story is it wasn't enough. Scrooge was confident that the government institutions he supported would take care of people; well if you've read the book you know how well that worked.

It is not enough to throw money at the problem we need to actually help people in need and I do not trust the government to accomplish that. As a Christian, I think believers need to get into the trenches as much as possible and not sit back and let the government do their job for them.
Just my dos centavos.
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Online DB

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #263 on: March 01, 2017, 11:53:51 pm »
How nice that you're not a socialist.

So your answer is that as a society we have no moral obligation to help those who cannot afford basic health care.

Morality and government don't go in the same sentence.

We had charities and churches to dispense our morality from and it worked. We could chose who was worthy of help and who was abusing it. The people receiving the help knew where it came from and appreciated it and strived to stop needing it. In stead we have one size fits all government and those who believe they are entitled to what they get from taxpayers with no moral obligation to stop doing it and voting for more.

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #264 on: March 02, 2017, 12:21:32 am »
Morality and government don't go in the same sentence.

We had charities and churches to dispense our morality from and it worked. We could chose who was worthy of help and who was abusing it. The people receiving the help knew where it came from and appreciated it and strived to stop needing it. In stead we have one size fits all government and those who believe they are entitled to what they get from taxpayers with no moral obligation to stop doing it and voting for more.

@DB

You are 100% right in all that you said here but unfortunately wasting your time in saying it to the committed apparatchiks you are speaking to.  They will continue to insist that transferring our personal moral imperatives to the government is the ONLY way to fly regardless of what you or I or anyone else says regardless.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 12:22:04 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online libertybele

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #265 on: March 02, 2017, 12:50:48 am »
No, you avoided the question.  You ask about morality in giving the poor a government handout.

I asked you if it is moral to extract money from someone to pay for someone else unwilling to work.

And someone is not virtuous when they refuse to work and exist on govt handouts, nor is it virtuous to steal money to pay for someone else's lethargy.


Twisting words is what a lib does.

The ACA is nothing more than a tax; it was a mandate for all to carry insurance regardless of income.  Those who don't have insurance were penalized which is absolutely absurd. If one can't afford insurance they sure as heck can't afford to pay the penalty.  There are a lot of hardworking people who still can't afford health insurance; penalizing them because they don't have insurance is asinine.  There is no morality in forcing someone to pay for something they can't afford and there is no morality in making someone pay for someone's else's health insurance.  Case in point, if I can afford to drive a Jaguar, that doesn't mean I should be forced to buy my neighbor a car of any sort.  Does that make me any less Christian or less of a humanitarian? 
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #266 on: March 02, 2017, 01:05:54 am »
Morality and government don't go in the same sentence.

Hah!  What a stupid statement.


Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #267 on: March 02, 2017, 01:08:52 am »
Hah!  What a stupid statement.

Only for those too ignorant to understand it!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #268 on: March 02, 2017, 01:32:54 am »
Only for those too ignorant to understand it!

So you agree that morality and government don't go in the same sentence?

I guess those Founding Fathers were real ignoramuses, weren't they?

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #269 on: March 02, 2017, 01:37:40 am »
So you agree that morality and government don't go in the same sentence?

I guess those Founding Fathers were real ignoramuses, weren't they?

Do corporations pay taxes?

Do guns kill people? 

Do spoons make people fat?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #270 on: March 02, 2017, 01:42:00 am »
Do corporations pay taxes?

Do guns kill people? 

Do spoons make people fat?

Is Bigun really as thought-free as his on-line presence makes him appear to be?

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #271 on: March 02, 2017, 01:43:25 am »
Is Bigun really as thought-free as his on-line presence makes him appear to be?

Answer the questions or begone fly.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online DB

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #272 on: March 02, 2017, 01:53:56 am »
Hah!  What a stupid statement.

Well I'll grant you that it is either a stupid statement or the person reading the statement is too stupid to understand it.

https://fee.org/resources/not-your-to-give-2/

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #273 on: March 02, 2017, 02:50:16 am »
Answer the questions or begone fly.
Once he/she/ze/zir/whatever realizes that you arent going to cave in, you're in for a real treat. you'll be instructed on how your life is poorly lived and various other bits of sanctimonious nonsense.

Online Bigun

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Re: Why Trump Should NOT Repeal or Replace ObamaCare (Just Let It Die)
« Reply #274 on: March 02, 2017, 02:56:50 am »
Once he/she/ze/zir/whatever realizes that you arent going to cave in, you're in for a real treat. you'll be instructed on how your life is poorly lived and various other bits of sanctimonious nonsense.

It's what trolls do!  They can't help it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien