Author Topic: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president  (Read 10367 times)

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Offline musiclady

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2017, 06:55:23 pm »
Truth @musiclady.  This thread is about TRUTH!  As are all threads in so far as I'm concerned!

As a Yankee who is glad we won and that you don't live in a different country, I beg to differ with your side of the argument.

But what we DO both agree on, and what IS truth, is that Obama was a wretched President and these "historians" are loco.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Online libertybele

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2017, 08:00:24 pm »
As a Yankee who is glad we won and that you don't live in a different country, I beg to differ with your side of the argument.

But what we DO both agree on, and what IS truth, is that Obama was a wretched President and these "historians" are loco.

These are probably the same liberal group of historians that keeping changing the history books in the schools so that they are more politically correct.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2017, 08:08:07 pm »
So, you would prefer a president who allowed Slavery?

Lincoln was the best president, it's not his fault if some people defended a modern day evil.


What has that got to do with anything?  Lincoln supported the Corwin Amendment in his inaugural address. (Making slavery permanently protected by constitutional amendment.) 


Lincoln also clearly stated that his object was to preserve the Union,  not end slavery.   He said he would keep slavery if it was necessary to preserve the Union.   



So what sort of man is Lincoln who would keep slavery,  but yet killed 750,000 men suppressing other states rights to independence? 


 
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2017, 08:13:39 pm »

 We're still dealing with the misapplication of the 14th Amendment to this day!


I make this point often.   The list of the things the 14th amendment has inadvertently destroyed is long. 


It created the "right"  to abortion.   It banned prayer in public schools.   It created Homosexual Marriage.   It created "Anchor Babies"  and "Birth Tourism." 

It allowed Obama to be elected President.   


This is just a partial list of the damage caused by the worst written amendment in the entire constitution,  and probably the most illegitimately passed amendment in the constitution.   


It could not have been passed without the approval of the Southern States,  so they simply pointed a gun to their heads and said "Pass it or else."   


It turned the entire idea of "consent of the governed" on it's head.   
 
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2017, 08:15:29 pm »
Lincoln fought the bloody war that was forced on him.


Who forced war on him?  All he had to do was nothing.   He chose to invade the South.  He could have chosen not to invade the South. 

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2017, 08:21:34 pm »
I would point out that the rest of the world didn't have a large section of their country willing to launch a brutal rebellion to defend slavery.


They didn't have to defend slavery.   Lincoln and the Congress had already given them assurances that "If you like your slavery,  you can keep your slavery." 

Congress passed the Corwin Amendment,  Lincoln said he would support it.   Whamo Bamo,  slavery would have been the constitutionally protected law of the land.   All the Southern States had to do was pass the amendment.  The Northern Representatives had already said they would pass it.   


So Lincoln offered them slavery,   but they decided that what they really wanted was Independence.   Lincoln wasn't going to allow them to have that,  because the money they made from European trade was paying 3/4ths of all the government bills at the time. 


An Independent South would have been an economic disaster for the North.   Their protectionist laws wouldn't work anymore,  and Northern industry would have been devastated by the newly created Southern competition.   


"Slavery"  was just the public relations campaign.   The real reason they couldn't let the South go was money.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2017, 08:28:26 pm »

The Civil War was not primarily about slavery. It was about the right of States vs. the Federal.


It was about economic profit,  and who would control the European trade.  In the then existing union,  the laws had been jiggered to create automatic profits for Northern industries.   3/4ths of all European trade was for Southern goods,   but the jiggered laws caused approximately 40% of all the revenue from the South to flow through New York,   as illustrated by this tariff chart someone created. 


[img w=700]https://deadconfederates.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/tariff01_720.png?w=720&h=546[/img]


Again,  that pile of coins was earned mostly by Southern products.   In a non jiggered system,  that pile of coins would be over Charleston and New Orleans,  not New York.   New York had the European trade sewn up due to shipping requirements. (outlined by the 1817 Navigation act) 


Northern congressmen had passed into law a system that guaranteed a monopoly for New York of all  Southern trade products.   That's why all the money went through New York instead of where it was actually produced.   


Southern independence upset this financial applecart,  and would have cost New York and North Eastern businesses a fortune in direct losses of income,   and even more when it capitalized Southern competition in what were then exclusively Northern industries.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2017, 08:33:22 pm »
Thank you!  If Lincoln had told the Union Army that they were fighting to end slavery they would have all gone home instantly!


At that time,  most white people in the North hated black people. (Illinois,  Lincoln's state,  had laws against black people settling there.)   Most Northern opposition to slavery had nothing to do with concern about black people being exploited,   it was abject hatred of the idea that factories and other industries could have their labor for free,  and thereby put poor white people out of a job. 


For most Northern whites,  the issue was one of labor and wages,   and they did not give a crap about how miserable were black people.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2017, 08:40:06 pm »
States right to do what?


Leave.   You know,  like it says in the Declaration of Independence?   That's when 13 slave owning states decided to leave the Union to which they belonged,  (Union of the Crowns) and rule themselves.   


It's called a "right to independence."   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2017, 08:46:11 pm »
My most favoritest and trusted historian... :whistle:


Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile. 


Charles Dickens noted the exact same thing. 


Quote
…the Northern onslaught upon slavery is no more than a piece of specious humbug disguised to conceal its desire for economic control of the United States.…Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this as many, many other evils. The quarrel between the North and South is, as it stands, solely a fiscal quarrel.



He also said:

Quote
Every reasonable creature may know, if willing, that the North hates the Negro, and until it was convenient to make a pretense that sympathy with him was the cause of the War, it hated the Abolitionists and derided them up hill and down dale. For the rest, there's not a pins difference between the two parties. They will both rant and lie and fight until they come to a compromise; and the slave may be thrown into that compromise or thrown out, just as it happens."

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Online Bigun

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2017, 08:46:15 pm »
As a Yankee who is glad we won and that you don't live in a different country, I beg to differ with your side of the argument.

But what we DO both agree on, and what IS truth, is that Obama was a wretched President and these "historians" are loco.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

John Adams, Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,  December 1770, US diplomat & politician (1735 - 1826).
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2017, 09:03:21 pm »
Economics are at the bottom of every war, somewhere.

The South was becoming more independent (Google Tredegar Iron Works), and less reliant on the North. The days of being exploited for raw materials vs finished goods were conceivably coming to an end, and with industrialization, the South would have been selling cloth, not bales of cotton. There would go huge profits for middlemen and manufacturers up north.  With secession, the North would have had to compete on the same market as any other country for the goods.


People don't get this.   The South was about to crush Northern Industry.  Furthermore,  over time they would have gained all the states in the Midwest,  leaving a rump Union with increasingly declining power.   

The industrialists of the time could see the economic trend which was occurring.   Had they not gone to war,  within about 20 years,  many major Northern industries would have been put out of business.   


Corporate Lawyer Abraham Lincoln understood all too well the financial costs that would occur if the South were allowed to develop economically without interference.   He also understood that if the South started supplying goods to the Midwest States up the Mississippi,  eventually they too would fall into the Confederacy's orbit.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline the_doc

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2017, 09:08:25 pm »
Some folks here like Coolidge and Coolidge was indeed, a great president (civil rights, etc.), but the list has him at 27, Nixon at 28. I can see why Nixon would not be rated high but it still looks like a bogus list.

Criteria not listed. Very uncertain as to the listing.

Are these historians the same guys who rated Obama as the smartest POTUS ever?  (I will concede that he may not be the dumbest ever, but I don't think he ranks in the stratosphere of IQ.  His crooked TOTUS is pretty smart, of course, as is his buddy Professor Bill "Moriarty" Ayers--but not the Bummer, IMHO.  Obama is merely cunning, not brilliant--and not really interested in social justice anyway.)

Online Bigun

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2017, 09:09:27 pm »

People don't get this.   The South was about to crush Northern Industry.  Furthermore,  over time they would have gained all the states in the Midwest,  leaving a rump Union with increasingly declining power.   

The industrialists of the time could see the economic trend which was occurring.   Had they not gone to war,  within about 20 years,  many major Northern industries would have been put out of business.   


Corporate Lawyer Abraham Lincoln understood all too well the financial costs that would occur if the South were allowed to develop economically without interference.   He also understood that if the South started supplying goods to the Midwest States up the Mississippi,  eventually they too would fall into the Confederacy's orbit.

You left out only one important FACT which is that {{{{{Slavery}}}}}} would have rapidly died under it's own weight had the south been allowed to fully develop economically.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2017, 09:11:44 pm »
Are these historians the same guys who rated Obama as the smartest POTUS ever?  (I will concede that he may not be the dumbest ever, but I don't think he ranks in the stratosphere of IQ.  His crooked TOTUS is pretty smart, of course, as is his buddy Professor Bill "Moriarty" Ayers--but not the Bummer, IMHO.  Obama is merely cunning, not brilliant--and not really interested in social justice anyway.)

I'm sorry but I do not agree that Obama is even cunning.  He is a very good puppet however.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2017, 09:16:20 pm »
Why did a thread about a stupid 'historians' survey turn into fighting the Civil War again?


Because past historians did the same thing with Abraham Lincoln.   He too was a race obsessed Liberal Lawyer from Illinois.   They turned him into a "light worker"  same as they did Obama.   They white washed his history and turned him into a Hero.   Same as modern Historians have attempted to do with Obama.





Current 'historians' are all biased and ignorant leftists. 


And so too does it appear were past historians.   



Why does their opinion matter?  Obama was a horrific President.


750,000 people is also pretty horrific. 

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Offline the_doc

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2017, 09:17:33 pm »

At that time,  most white people in the North hated black people. (Illinois,  Lincoln's state,  had laws against black people settling there.)   Most Northern opposition to slavery had nothing to do with concern about black people being exploited,   it was abject hatred of the idea that factories and other industries could have their labor for free,  and thereby put poor white people out of a job. 


For most Northern whites,  the issue was one of labor and wages,   and they did not give a crap about how miserable were black people.   

I think Lincoln probably did care more for the blacks than most Northerners did, but he was capable of some nefarious stuff in cahoots with the financial power brokers of the North.  Since you seem to be a student of history, I would urge you (and all the lurkers on this thread, for that matter) to get and read Dark Union.  It's quite a SHOCKER--in more ways than one--in my Texas-based opinion.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2017, 09:24:42 pm »
You left out only one important FACT which is that {{{{{Slavery}}}}}} would have rapidly died under it's own weight had the south been allowed to fully develop economically.


I don't know about "rapidly."   I agree that it would have eventually died under it's own weight (and social  opprobrium which would have only increased over time)  but It may have taken 40 years or more.   


I can see where Factories employing slaves would have been seen as a dire financial threat to Northern Industries,  especially by the workers.    So long as the South was agricultural,   people probably didn't care so much,   but when the possibility that they might acquire enough capital to build factories,   that is a different matter altogether,  from an economic standpoint. 


Free Trade with Europe (Actually,  just much lower tariffs)  would have capitalized the South greatly.   They would have had the money to invest in Factories.   
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Online Bigun

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2017, 09:29:17 pm »

I don't know about "rapidly."   I agree that it would have eventually died under it's own weight (and social  opprobrium which would have only increased over time)  but It may have taken 40 years or more.   


I can see where Factories employing slaves would have been seen as a dire financial threat to Northern Industries,  especially by the workers.    So long as the South was agricultural,   people probably didn't care so much,   but when the possibility that they might acquire enough capital to build factories,   that is a different matter altogether,  from an economic standpoint. 


Free Trade with Europe (Actually,  just much lower tariffs)  would have capitalized the South greatly.   They would have had the money to invest in Factories.

Rapidly is a relative term it seems.  We could argue endlessly about exactly how long it would have taken but there is really no point is there.  The FACT is that it would have died under its own weight and that should end the argument about the great unpleasantness being all about slavery.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2017, 09:31:14 pm »
I think Lincoln probably did care more for the blacks than most Northerners did, but he was capable of some nefarious stuff in cahoots with the financial power brokers of the North.  Since you seem to be a student of history, I would urge you (and all the lurkers on this thread, for that matter) to get and read Dark Union.  It's quite a SHOCKER--in more ways than one--in my Texas-based opinion.


I have been learning quite a lot of shocking things over the last year.   Much of what I was taught while I was growing up was simply misleading.   


Did you know Lincoln was an officer of an Illinois group dedicated to deporting Black people out of the Country?    He didn't want to live with them,  he wanted them expelled.   


And yes,  that "Financial Powers of the North  (New York/Boston/Washington)  are exactly the crony capitalists we are currently fighting.   Odd that they own all the media companies which constantly espouse Liberal policy,  isn't it?   


I have been thinking that the current "establishment",  that consortium of industrialists which control hidden levers of power within the government structure,   got it's start with the election of Lincoln. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2017, 09:33:29 pm »
Rapidly is a relative term it seems.  We could argue endlessly about exactly how long it would have taken but there is really no point is there.  The FACT is that it would have died under its own weight and that should end the argument about the great unpleasantness being all about slavery.


I think it would have ended under it's own weight.   It ended everywhere else that way,  it only lasted so long in the South because it had better profitability there,  but eventually it would have lost to machinery. 


Then slaves would become just an unwanted burden. 
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline the_doc

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2017, 09:40:19 pm »
I'm sorry but I do not agree that Obama is even cunning.  He is a very good puppet however.
@Cripplecreek
I happen to think most successful liars are rather cunning (like psychopaths, all of whom are at least wickedly charismatic for the purpose of fooling fools).  Successful liars like Obama have learned the mere art of being cunning--because they are depraved--and it doesn't take much intelligence for a well-indoctrinated liar to figure out that his vastly more intelligent puppet masters do know what they are doing through him as their charismatic [?] point man.

In any case, I am certainly not offering a compliment to Obama when I offer the opinion that he has been at least cunning enough to follow Alinsky and Alinsky's myriad of protégés into duping a majority of generally rather stupid and/or depraved American voters twice.

(As I have said on other threads, I met a British-born Kenyan who loves America but said to me "You Americans are stupid"--and I had to agree with him.  With Obama's massive help from his conspiratorial friends, he has been at least cunning enough to escape prosecution for identity theft for eight years [and maybe forever, considering our morally stupid Congress].)

Offline the_doc

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2017, 09:48:37 pm »

I have been learning quite a lot of shocking things over the last year.   Much of what I was taught while I was growing up was simply misleading.   


Did you know Lincoln was an officer of an Illinois group dedicated to deporting Black people out of the Country?    He didn't want to live with them,  he wanted them expelled.   


And yes,  that "Financial Powers of the North  (New York/Boston/Washington)  are exactly the crony capitalists we are currently fighting.   Odd that they own all the media companies which constantly espouse Liberal policy,  isn't it?   


I have been thinking that the current "establishment",  that consortium of industrialists which control hidden levers of power within the government structure,   got it's start with the election of Lincoln.

Knowing what I already knew about Lincoln, I was only mildly surprised, I guess, to learn of his back-door dealings with Wall Street during the War.  The historians clearly have not told the whole story.

What I found especially shocking in Dark Union concerns John Wilkes Booth.  I would urge you to get the book and read it if you haven't already done so.  It is a riveting story, including the detailed account of a bizarre (and almost comedic) cover-up about the assassination plot and its aftermath.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2017, 10:37:47 pm »

The Civil War was not primarily about slavery. It was about the right of States vs. the Federal.
There are two points to make about the CW.....(1) the immediate cause of secession was slavery and (2) that was not the  reason why many Southerners fought.  No less a personage than Robert E. Lee was anti-slavery as was another Confederate general Patrick Cleburne. In fact, both generals late in the war proposed to the Confederate congress freeing slaves to gain more manpower. Their suggestions were turned down.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2017, 11:42:06 pm »
You left out only one important FACT which is that {{{{{Slavery}}}}}} would have rapidly died under it's own weight had the south been allowed to fully develop economically.
Yes! In Maryland, the number of free blacks increased as farms in the vicinity of Washington DC and Baltimore stopped growing tobacco and shifted crops to the even more lucrative produce farming to supply the cities. Slaves, not needed for the less labor intensive crops were freed, often taking the name of either their trade or adopting the last name of their former masters. Such relationships had not generally been adversarial, (Recall if you will, Uncle Tom's Cabin was a novel and sensationalistic abolitionist propaganda.) but often were close. Many owners, sometimes in defiance of the law, taught their slaves the rudiments of arithmetic and to read and write, as such were useful skills.

Slaves were expensive, required initial investment, plus they had to be fed, clothed, housed, and given some sort of medical care or that investment would be lost--whether they worked or not.
It was not unusual that the owners wouldn't let them in the hold when loading cargo on a vessel, because the slave might be killed (and the investment lost). Instead, some hireling would be down there taking his chances (usually Irish, but any fresh immigrant would do, or even a local).
(It's no accident the Irish (who need not apply) ended up in jobs like longshoreman, teamster, powder monkey, policeman, fireman--all the most dangerous jobs of the day.)

The idea that it was cheaper to hire a fresh immigrant and let them procure their provender from their wages wasn't lost on the slave owners, and the institution was becoming less relevant.
The more industrialization, the fewer slaves.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:49:11 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis