Author Topic: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen  (Read 2600 times)

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2017, 03:19:24 pm »
That's true...you can never have "enough" intel.

I'm afraid that the Officer Corps has become too political...you won't have many that rise to the rank of general that will step up and speak the truth about something even though it flies int he face of what is being said.  Sr. NCO's are becoming just as political as well I'm afraid.

It's become more about protecting your own career than doing what's right for the soldiers you lead.

The greatest battle plans ever devised never survived first contact with the enemy!

The PROBLEM here is people running their damned mouths when they shouldn't !
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Night Hides Not

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2017, 03:24:27 pm »
In all honesty what should have happened is that they should have put a 2-3 week hold on the boots on the ground raids until 1) the new POTUS and SecDef were full up to speed on them and b) during said pause have the G-2 and J-2 at the Pentagon...DIA...NSA et al review their intel...update as necessary and then resume these type of operations as necessary.

That way they aren't set up for failure by their predecessors like what seems to be the case here.

They could still call a pause...explain why and put the blame for that dead SEAL squarely on the last administration.

Sorry friend, Trump became CinC two weeks ago. It became his responsibility on 1/20.

On a much lesser note, I came back from a week's training to learn that I was being assigned both Chaparral (missile) platoons in my battery. I had worked with the first one for 3 months, yet the platoon being evaluated that day was my first day with them.

We flunked. It was all on me, that's how it works in the Army. One of the best learning experiences of my life. Were there other reasons for our lack of success? Of course, but that didn't matter. Good leadership trumps all.

Over the next 18 months, I successfully took 3 platoons through evaluations, as well as carrying the load during a battery level evaluation when my CO went catatonic after making a couple of egregious mistakes in disseminating mission orders. I knew the consequences for my actions, and I was rewarded with a career-ending evaluation. How bad was it? LOL, it earned me a nasty letter from Dept. of the Army, though my Group Commander attached remarks to the effect that my "problems" arose from the lack of leadership from the Battery and Battalion Commanders.

I'm no saint or Patton, but I was more concerned about the soldiers in my unit, that busted their humps for us, despite the CO and a couple of Platoon Leaders completely effing everything up. How bad was it? Upon returning to the CP after checking on platoons as acting XO (in addition to Systems Maintenance Officer...a terrible job, all the blame but no authority), my First Sergeant was sitting on a tree stump, with his head in his hands. This was a man who served 3 tours in Nam as an infantry first sergeant...he had never seen a cluster foxtrot like this, and he was flummoxed. Behind the scenes, I issued orders to right the ship, at least until the evening briefing, when I unloaded on the platoon leaders. I was personally invested here, as I had taken 3 of the 4 platoons through their evaluations, and I couldn't believe the crap I was seeing. With the CO sitting there, I told the platoon leaders what their squads would do the next day, chapter and verse what they were supposed to do in the field.

After that "session", I was surprised to bump into the evaluation team chief, who was standing just outside the CP van. Realizing he heard everything, my first thought was "oh, crap." Instead, he smiled at me and said, "that was beautiful, LT." The next day, we passed...barely.

I hope that Trump learns from this, and improves as CinC.

Apologies for digressing.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 03:30:51 pm by Night Hides Not »
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HonestJohn

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2017, 05:24:40 pm »
Apparently, @HonestJohn is under the delusion that just because President Trump relieved the JCS from having to attend every dumbassed meeting of the NSC on the docket they somehow became completely unavailable to him!   **nononono*

And apparently @Bigun doesn't understand how the JCS isn't an expert on intel.  That Trump would need the JCS and the DNI together to get the best info from both AND for them to be able to adjust their advice based on the information provided by the other. 

And they'd both need State to figure out the international implications to their advice.

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The NCS isn't just to supply the President with advice, but to provide that advice to *ALL* the attendees.  For they pick it up by listening to the others speak.

Which the JCS no longer get.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2017, 05:28:49 pm »
And apparently @Bigun doesn't understand how the JCS isn't an expert on intel.  That Trump would need the JCS and the DNI together to get the best info from both AND for them to be able to adjust their advice based on the information provided by the other. 

And they'd both need State to figure out the international implications to their advice.

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The NCS isn't just to supply the President with advice, but to provide that advice to *ALL* the attendees.  For they pick it up by listening to the others speak.

Which the JCS no longer get.

Sorry John!  NO sale!

Just because the JCS are no longer REQUIRED to attend NSC meetings does not preclude their doing so and I'm quite sure they do when necessary!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

HonestJohn

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2017, 05:36:09 pm »
Sorry John!  NO sale!

Just because the JCS are no longer REQUIRED to attend NSC meetings does not preclude their doing so and I'm quite sure they do when necessary!

You're claiming the JCS get to determine when they can attend, in flat contradiction to reality.  Trump determines if they attend.

Period.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2017, 05:41:45 pm »
You're claiming the JCS get to determine when they can attend, in flat contradiction to reality.  Trump determines if they attend.

Period.

Show me where Trump has, in ANY way, barred their attendance John! 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

HonestJohn

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2017, 05:57:54 pm »
You write:

Show me where Trump has, in ANY way, barred their attendance John!

Based on:

You're claiming the JCS get to determine when they can attend, in flat contradiction to reality.  Trump determines if they attend.

Period.

How do you get one from the other?

They only attend at the behest of Trump.

And one cannot know when one's advice is needed beforehand, not unless all the players have scripted their words for the JCS to read.

It's ad hoc. 

A good example of this effect is this forum itself.  You provide your advice by commenting on the words issued by others.  You don't knoiw what they are going to write until they write it.  So you can't predict what you can offer beforehand.

Now imagine if Myst only allowed you access to a thread if you could point out, before the thread was posted, exactly what comments you would make to the other possible participants.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2017, 06:15:46 pm »
You write:

Based on:

How do you get one from the other?

They only attend at the behest of Trump.

And one cannot know when one's advice is needed beforehand, not unless all the players have scripted their words for the JCS to read.

It's ad hoc. 

A good example of this effect is this forum itself.  You provide your advice by commenting on the words issued by others.  You don't knoiw what they are going to write until they write it.  So you can't predict what you can offer beforehand.

Now imagine if Myst only allowed you access to a thread if you could point out, before the thread was posted, exactly what comments you would make to the other possible participants.

Read this and get back to me John!

https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-members-of-President-Trumps-National-Security-Council
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

HonestJohn

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Re: Questions rise about Trump-ordered raid in Yemen
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2017, 08:49:03 pm »
Read this and get back to me John!

https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-members-of-President-Trumps-National-Security-Council

And?

It supports my point.  The JCS and the DNI are only allowed to attend when allowed. 

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And guess just who makes that call?  It isn't the JCS or the DNI.