Author Topic: BREAKING: President Trump’s Pick for SUPREME COURT Has Just Been Revealed… Meet Neil Gorsuch  (Read 18751 times)

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Offline INVAR

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"Appellate jurisdiction" as to the "Law" means the authority to interpret the law and apply it to a set of facts. 

The Law is the Law. As legislated, as signed into being, as ratified.  There is nothing to 'interpret' unless one is hunting for a way to circumvent the law, or create law, or legislate from the bench.

The High Court has the authority to examine cases BASED ON the law.  NOT how they interpret it.

Otherwise we are right back to everyone does and rules whatever is right in their own eyes.

The Liberal Activists on SCOTUS would likely "interpret" Trump's EO on Immigration to be in violation of the Constitution because they "interpret" the Constitution to mean that we should have no borders and automatically put all immigrants on welfare and give them the right to vote. 

"Interpret" is just the means to the end to circumvent the Supreme Law of the Land via the gavel.  You can argue semantics until you are blue in the face.  I don't buy the statement.

Liberals like to mess with the language in convoluted legalese and tell us that plain words do not mean what they say.  That is all 'interpret the law' means.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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Robert's closing statement on his Obamacare included this:

"In a democracy, the power to make the law rests withthose chosen by the people. Our role is more confined—“to say what the law is.” Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177 (1803). That is easier in some cases than in others. But in every case we must respect the role of the Legislature, and take care not to undo what it has done. A fair reading of legislation demands a fair understanding of the legislative plan."

Plainly stated, the law was made by those elected by the people. Left unsaid (but understood) is "let it be undone in the same manner, not by the Court".

We've elected people to undo the law, so let us now see if they actually do it.
If I had a dollar for every time some b@stard on the Left said the PENALTY was NOT A TAX, I would be able to not only pay that penalty, but I could afford the best health CARE on the planet.
 
With an overwhelming amount of insistence that the penalty for breathing was NOT A TAX, which was relevant because the penalty originated in the Senate--and revenue measures (AKA taxes) are Constitutionally required to originate in the House--Roberts rewrote the law to avoid ruling it as Unconstitutional, and rendered the law unconstitutional in the process.

If that's someone's idea of good jurisprudence, they don't know wtf they are talking about.

It is the duty of Congress to write the law. It is the job of the SCOTUS, NOT to rewrite the law, but to rule on the Constitutionality thereof. We are paying for an army of staffers on the Hill and the Congress they serve to take care of writing laws, and if they can't get it right, it should be shot down in flames.

Roberts, for whatever reason, scandal, threat, or failure of conscience and principle FAILED TO DO HIS JOB. The Courts were the last line of defense for the American People and The Constitution, and nonfeasance is not only a cop out, but has severely damaged the health care system in this country.

A SCOTUS Chief Justice who failed to do his job is no model for stuffing the future Supreme Court, not if we want to use the Constitution for anything but a curiosity and a wall hanging.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

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With an overwhelming amount of insistence that the penalty for breathing was NOT A TAX, which was relevant because the penalty originated in the Senate--and revenue measures (AKA taxes) are Constitutionally required to originate in the House--Roberts rewrote the law to avoid ruling it as Unconstitutional, and rendered the law unconstitutional in the process.

...It is the duty of Congress to write the law. It is the job of the SCOTUS, NOT to rewrite the law, but to rule on the Constitutionality thereof. We are paying for an army of staffers on the Hill and the Congress they serve to take care of writing laws, and if they can't get it right, it should be shot down in flames.

...A SCOTUS Chief Justice who failed to do his job is no model for stuffing the future Supreme Court, not if we want to use the Constitution for anything but a curiosity and a wall hanging.

Amen and needed repeating.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Jazzhead

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Doesn't answer the question I asked you.

You have argued for and against judicial activism when it suits your purpose.

Why the double standard?

I'm just trying to get you to tell me when we're supposed to believe activism is good and when its bad.

You asked me to respond to your conclusion for which you've established no basis.   When have I argued for judicial activism?

Note that I've never defended Roe v. Wade as representing good judging.  It's exactly the sort of judicial activism I oppose.  My issue with overturning Roe has everything to do with the fact that it's been the law for over 40 years, and every woman in America of child-bearing age has come to rely on the right that it established. 

 That reality requires the solution to be political, not judicial.   There would be an uprising against the authority of the Court if it were to suddenly take away an important civil right.  If the right is to be denied, it must be done by the peoples' elected representatives (that is, by means of a Constitutional amendment).   
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Offline Jazzhead

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It is the duty of Congress to write the law. It is the job of the SCOTUS, NOT to rewrite the law, but to rule on the Constitutionality thereof.

That's correct.   And that's exactly what Roberts did with respect to ObamaCare.  The "individual mandate" is perfectly lawful as a tax.   Your objection is that you believe it is bad policy.   That's fine - and the solution is political. 

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We are paying for an army of staffers on the Hill and the Congress they serve to take care of writing laws, and if they can't get it right, it should be shot down in flames.

Not so fast.   You're suggesting the Court be more aggressive and activist in shooting down the choices made by the peoples' elected representatives.   That's profoundly undemocratic.   

The solution to bad policy is to replace it with good policy.   That's what elections are for.  Not judges.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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That's correct.   And that's exactly what Roberts did with respect to ObamaCare.  The "individual mandate" is perfectly lawful as a tax.   Your objection is that you believe it is bad policy.   That's fine - and the solution is political. 
Is it? The penalty Roberts rewrote into a tax originated in the Senate. It is still unconstitutional, because revenue measures (taxes) are required to originate in the House of Representatives.
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Not so fast.   You're suggesting the Court be more aggressive and activist in shooting down the choices made by the peoples' elected representatives.   That's profoundly undemocratic.   
We don't live in a Democracy, we live in a Constitutional Republic. When the law conflicts with the Constitution, it comes in conflict with the basis of our government, the supreme law of the land (via the Supremacy Clause).
If the law is Unconstitutional, it doesn't matter if the whole Congress voted for it, it is void. The only way to make such enactments is through amending the Constitution.

{Note, Prohibition could not be enacted otherwise at the Federal Level, because the Constitution gives no authority to the Federal Government to decide whether or not Alcoholic beverages (or anything else, for that matter) could be consumed by individuals. That 'settled law'--a constitutional amendment, was itself repealed by a subsequent amendment, because the courts could not touch it.
Roe was a bad court decision, but even more the court found a 'right' that never existed. The danger in that is that the court that manufactures rights can destroy them. I presume you understand the logic behind partial birth abortion is that the likely viable baby isn't completely born yet, so it can still be murdered. Pop that rascal out of there, and if breathing, if it has a heartbeat, it is considered a human being with all the rights and protections thereof (except by some abortion providers). Considering one of my great grandchildren weighed 1 lb 8 ounces at birth and is a healthy kid today, it is mainly a question of how much someone wants that child to die. A matter of a few critical millimeters is asserted to make the difference between being a 'lump of tissue' and a baby? No logic supports that, really. Considering that, statistically speaking, just over half of the babies killed each year are female, trying to make the right to kill a gestating baby a matter of "Women's choice" falls flat on its face, and what's more, denies the right of the child's father to have any choice to raise his own child.}

 
You see, neither the court nor the Constitution grant rights, those are only tools to protect those unalienable rights which all men (and women) naturally have, one of those Rights being Life itself.

If you want to have a Constitutional Republic, let's use the law as the Founders intended, not assert that every time a majority in Congress has a notion to buy votes it is legal to do so.
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The solution to bad policy is to replace it with good policy.   That's what elections are for.  Not judges.
My objections, while certainly to the bad policy, are also to the unconstitutional way it was implemented. The tax was imposed by judicial decree, not by the legislature which had insisted at great length that the penalty was a penalty for noncompliance and not a tax for existing. In effect, Roberts imposed a tax on breathing, on life itself, because only the dead get out of it.
This follows the imposition of a tax on NFA firearms, another tax on a fundamental Right.
When Rights are taxed, they can be controlled, and become, in effect, privileges of those who can or will  pay for their Rights--which flies in the face of the entire concept of Rights in the first place.

 If the Court would not allow a poll tax on the right to vote, nor upon the Right to Free Speech, it is grossly inconsistent to tax the fundamental and unalienable right to live, which is, in effect what the "tax" in the ACA is.

If Roberts ignored those to avoid ruling on the law, if he rewrote the law to avoid voiding it, his nonfeasance (at best) has cost American and Americans dearly.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 02:04:08 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

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Interpretation means interpretation.    Construction and application of the law to a set of facts.

There's your problem right there.
The judicial system does not have the power to write (construct) law. That power resides solely in the Congress.

'Appellate' power means it sits atop all the rest of the courts, not the Congress. It has, at it's discretion, the power to pick up cases from the lower courts, determining law and fact wrt those cases. It is the ultimate court.

Wrt Congress, it does have the power to interpret the law, in either upholding, or striking down, laws written by Congress. It has no right to modify those laws. That is judicial activism, and is wholly destructive the the American system. If a law gets struck down, it is up to Congress to rewrite the law in order to pass judicial review. That may mean the SCOTUS court can tell Congress what it would accept wrt the law, but it remains the sole power of the court, wrt Congress, to strike down or uphold.

And I have most certainly, *never in my life*, found a Conservative defense for judicial activism. No Conservative thought puts law by fiat in the hands of an unelected, lifetime appointed committee.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 02:20:15 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline montanajoe

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Because nobody here sits on the SC, our opinions don't make any difference. I would submit however, that whether one believes Roberts decided rightly or wrongly, its important to understand the CJ's judicial philosophy and the way he is likely to act in the future as he will probably be CJ for at least another 30 years.

The judge has made it clear he won't use the SC to do the job of the Legislative branch and if it can be avoided he won't have the Court take up the contentious social and cultural issues of our time as he believes they should be solved politically not judicially.

One can agree or disagree with that philosophy, but that's going to be the way it is for the foreseeable future especially with the addition of Gorsuch. If those on the right want an activist Conservative Court they they will need  shift their position and start demanding activist Judges that agree with their conservative political views be nominated rather than Conservative Jurists :shrug:.

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This thread needs to be shut down.

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This thread needs to be shut down.

yep.  it doesn't even resemble the original intent since Jazzy hi-jacked it to throw a liberal taint on it.

Offline Jazzhead

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There's your problem right there.
The judicial system does not have the power to write (construct) law. That power resides solely in the Congress.


Respectfully, that is not correct.   You're right that a judge cannot "write" (re-write) the law, but that's not what "construction" means.  Construction refers to the authority to construe a law in the context of the case facts,  to determine whether and how it applies.   Construing a law is similar to interpreting a law -  it doesn't give a court authority to re-write a law.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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This thread needs to be shut down.

Aw,  I think this thread has been interesting and, obviously, it's interested quite a few others as well.   Why shut it down so long as the conversation remains civil?

And, to respond to Wingnut,  I didn't hi-jack the thread.  My initial post was in response to geronl attacking Judge Gorsuch for being insufficiently concerned with fetuses.   I thought it was important to point out that a "conservative" jurist, which is supposedly what we want in this nominee,  is unlikely to use his authority to deny the Constitutional rights of a hundred million women.     
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Offline txradioguy

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Respectfully, that is not correct.   You're right that a judge cannot "write" (re-write) the law,

Then by your own words Obamacare should not be in effect, Roe v Wade should not be the law of the land...there should not be gay "marriage".

All of those instances are clear cut cases of judges writing law from the bench.


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but that's not what "construction" means.  Construction refers to the authority to construe a law in the context of the case facts,  to determine whether and how it applies.   Construing a law is similar to interpreting a law -  it doesn't give a court authority to re-write a law.   

No...not really

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Strict construction requires a judge to apply the text only as it is written. Once the court has a clear meaning of the text, no further investigation is required.

"Strict constructionism" is also used in American political discourse as an umbrella term for conservative legal philosophies such as originalism and textualism, which emphasize judicial restraint and fidelity to the original meaning (or originally intended meaning) of constitutions and laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_constructionism

You couldn't have been more wrong on your alleged definition if you tried.
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Offline don-o

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This thread needs to be shut down.

Why? I believe I have seen exactly one personal attack, which was called out by a Mod and, I believe, deleted. Is there a new set of posting rules? Are people being compelled to open topics against their will?

As far as "on topic", certainly early in a discussion that is an important factor. But after six pages, [edit 13] if a few people are interested in a tangent, where's the harm?

@mystery-ak
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 04:17:21 pm by don-o »

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Why? I believe I have seen exactly one personal attack, which was called out by a Mod and, I believe, deleted. Is there a new set of posting rules? Are people being compelled to open topics against their will?

As far as "on topic", certainly early in a discussion that is an important factor. But after six pages, if a few people are interested in a tangent, where's the harm?

@mystery-ak


It's veering offtopic onto a topic that bores me to tears.

Offline don-o

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It's veering offtopic onto a topic that bores me to tears.

Can you provide a description of whoever is holding you at gunpoint?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 04:19:49 pm by don-o »

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« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 04:53:12 pm by corbe »
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

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I'd pay good money to see that.

He's here every day from 6 am till 2 am.   Wont cost you a dime.

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Respectfully, that is not correct.   You're right that a judge cannot "write" (re-write) the law, but that's not what "construction" means.  Construction refers to the authority to construe a law in the context of the case facts,  to determine whether and how it applies.   Construing a law is similar to interpreting a law -  it doesn't give a court authority to re-write a law.   

You seemed to be leaning upon 'construct' as a means to defend judicial activism, which is why my approach. And no, a judge cannot write or re-write anything.

Online roamer_1

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He's here every day from 6 am till 2 am.   Wont cost you a dime.

Somehow it feels like you should have added, 'And try the veal,' to your statement... :shrug:

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Somehow it feels like you should have added, 'And try the veal,' to your statement... :shrug:

:Rimshot:

Frank does like veal!..