Author Topic: BREAKING: President Trump’s Pick for SUPREME COURT Has Just Been Revealed… Meet Neil Gorsuch  (Read 18937 times)

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Online roamer_1

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The CJ in my opinion, simply refused to refused to use the Court to overturn a policy decision by a super-majority in the Senate and a majority in the House. In other words he refused to allow the SC to legislate from the bench.

This is what a Conservative Originalist Judge is supposed to do

I'll differ with you on this one.
I would suppose a Conservative originalist judge would determine the legality of the law before him, and in finding it unconstitutional, strike it down. Period.

Legislating from the bench is never ok.

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I'll differ with you on this one.
I would suppose a Conservative originalist judge would determine the legality of the law before him, and in finding it unconstitutional, strike it down. Period.

Legislating from the bench is never ok.

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Couldn't agree more!  888high58888
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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My view is that Justice Roberts acts exactly as a conservative jurist should - his job is to "call balls and strikes" accurately and in conformity with the law,  regardless of the policy implications of the outcome.  It is not his job to "legislate from the bench" - legislation should be solely the job of the peoples' elected representatives.   

Unless he's being blackmailed by the left, as was the case in the Obamacare Mandate case.  He ruled it a tax, even though nobody on either side made any kind of argument about a tax.  He actually created a new argument out of whole cloth to justify upholding the law.

He didn't call strikes and balls on that one.  He tossed the ball up in the air then used his bat to hit it.  But, I don't think you'll ever see it that way because I suspect he found the way you wanted him to.  It's pretty easy to call a Justice a great judge when he finds your way.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Unless he's being blackmailed by the left, as was the case in the Obamacare Mandate case.  He ruled it a tax, even though nobody on either side made any kind of argument about a tax.  He actually created a new argument out of whole cloth to justify upholding the law.

He didn't call strikes and balls on that one.  He tossed the ball up in the air then used his bat to hit it.  But, I don't think you'll ever see it that way because I suspect he found the way you wanted him to.  It's pretty easy to call a Justice a great judge when he finds your way.

Robert's closing statement on his Obamacare included this:

"In a democracy, the power to make the law rests withthose chosen by the people. Our role is more confined—“to say what the law is.” Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177 (1803). That is easier in some cases than in others. But in every case we must respect the role of the Legislature, and take care not to undo what it has done. A fair reading of legislation demands a fair understanding of the legislative plan."

Plainly stated, the law was made by those elected by the people. Left unsaid (but understood) is "let it be undone in the same manner, not by the Court".

We've elected people to undo the law, so let us now see if they actually do it.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Couldn't agree more!  888high58888

Unless of course you don't agree with their opinion and they strike a law that you like. At that point you start talking about judicial activism and the unconstitutionality of Judicial review.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Oceander

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Unless he's being blackmailed by the left, as was the case in the Obamacare Mandate case.  He ruled it a tax, even though nobody on either side made any kind of argument about a tax.  He actually created a new argument out of whole cloth to justify upholding the law.

He didn't call strikes and balls on that one.  He tossed the ball up in the air then used his bat to hit it.  But, I don't think you'll ever see it that way because I suspect he found the way you wanted him to.  It's pretty easy to call a Justice a great judge when he finds your way.

A tax isn't determined by its label but by its practical effect and economic substance.  The fact that it was and is administered by the IRS, reported on a tax return, and can vary based on gross income is a sufficiently reasonable basis to justify the conclusion that it is a tax.  Claiming that Roberts was blackmailed without very specific evidence that is not merely conjecture is the same sort of idiocy the left is engaging in now when they claim Trump is a fascist who will seize power.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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A tax isn't determined by its label but by its practical effect and economic substance.  The fact that it was and is administered by the IRS, reported on a tax return, and can vary based on gross income is a sufficiently reasonable basis to justify the conclusion that it is a tax.  Claiming that Roberts was blackmailed without very specific evidence that is not merely conjecture is the same sort of idiocy the left is engaging in now when they claim Trump is a fascist who will seize power.

If you say so about my reckless allegations, but I disagree about the "tax."  It's not a matter of semantics because the Constitution has very specific instructions about taxes.  You do have a good point that since the law assigned collection to the IRS suggests it's a tax in practical terms.  I always believed that was because the mechanism was already in place to collect money from citizens.

What I said still stands:  Nobody on either side made the case it's a tax, in fact the Obama Administration was very specific about not making that case, yet Roberts created the argument on the fly to justify the decision, and by all appearances, all by himself.  Now, I am nowhere near a legal eagle, so if you are I expect to be shot to pieces, but this looks a lot like backfilling fudged data to support a preconceived conclusion.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Oceander

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If you say so about my reckless allegations, but I disagree about the "tax."  It's not a matter of semantics because the Constitution has very specific instructions about taxes.  You do have a good point that since the law assigned collection to the IRS suggests it's a tax in practical terms.  I always believed that was because the mechanism was already in place to collect money from citizens.

What I said still stands:  Nobody on either side made the case it's a tax, in fact the Obama Administration was very specific about not making that case, yet Roberts created the argument on the fly to justify the decision, and by all appearances, all by himself.  Now, I am nowhere near a legal eagle, so if you are I expect to be shot to pieces, but this looks a lot like backfilling fudged data to support a preconceived conclusion.

Roberts didn't make something up out of whole cloth and judges are not confined to only those legal conclusions urged by the parties.  If the item in question fit the description of a tax sufficiently well in his professional opinion based on logic and available precedent, then it doesn't matter a hill of beans that nobody argued to the Court that it was a tax.

And it is the case that the effects of an action by government carry more weight than the label given to that action in deciding whether it's a tax.  There is caselaw holding that a fee for police and fire services - a charge by a local government that was not labeled a "tax" - was a tax, and not a fee for services because the payment was compulsory - i.e., a levy - and was due without regard to whether the payer ever used those services.  Thus, simply calling it a service fee does not mean that it is not a tax. 

The so-called individual responsibility part of Obastardcare fit the criteria for being a tax, and the holding that it was a tax was not unreasonable or unjustified, despite the fact that it wasn't a "tax" eo nomine and despite the fact that neither party argued for or against its being a tax. 

Offline SirLinksALot

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If you say so about my reckless allegations, but I disagree about the "tax."  It's not a matter of semantics because the Constitution has very specific instructions about taxes.  You do have a good point that since the law assigned collection to the IRS suggests it's a tax in practical terms.  I always believed that was because the mechanism was already in place to collect money from citizens.

What I said still stands:  Nobody on either side made the case it's a tax, in fact the Obama Administration was very specific about not making that case, yet Roberts created the argument on the fly to justify the decision, and by all appearances, all by himself.  Now, I am nowhere near a legal eagle, so if you are I expect to be shot to pieces, but this looks a lot like backfilling fudged data to support a preconceived conclusion.

I agree with Cyber Liberty.

The right decision would have been for Justice Roberts to say something like this --- It can be done with the proviso that the so called Penalty is a Tax. However, the law as it is written and as Obama himself said -- it is NOT a tax but it is a PENALTY  for not  purchasing insurance. Therefore, I will have no choice but to rule that the law as written now is UNCONSTITUTIONAL since citizens are being penalized for NOT BUYING a product.

Government has no authority to penalize Americans for refusing to purchase any product.

I therefore ask Congress to RE-WRITE the law to EXPLICITLY impose a tax IN WRITING.

Now, that would have been in keeping with his position as a judge, not as a legislator.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 11:46:13 pm by SirLinksALot »

Offline SirLinksALot

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A REMINDER AS TO WHAT OBAMA HIMSELF SAID TO STEPHANOPOULOS:

"It is absolutely NOT a tax."

See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQMkOScXctY

Online Bigun

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Unless of course you don't agree with their opinion and they strike a law that you like. At that point you start talking about judicial activism and the unconstitutionality of Judicial review.

Two separate arguments Luis! 

And YOU know that!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline bigheadfred

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I agree with Cyber Liberty.

The right decision would have been for Justice Roberts to say something like this --- It can be done with the proviso that the so called Penalty is a Tax. However, the law as it is written and as Obama himself said -- it is NOT a tax but it is a PENALTY  for not  purchasing insurance. Therefore, I will have no choice but to rule that the law as written now is UNCONSTITUTIONAL since citizens are being penalized for NOT BUYING a product.

Government has no authority to penalize Americans for refusing to purchase any product.

I therefore ask Congress to RE-WRITE the law to EXPLICITLY impose a tax IN WRITING.

Now, that would have been in keeping with his position as a judge, not as a legislator.

I agree with ya'll on that.  Back to that " “But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what's in it....”.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Two separate arguments Luis! 

And YOU know that!

What I know is where you stand on this issue; I've been reading your posts for years.

When the Courts overturn laws that yuou don't agree with, you accuse them of engaging in Judicial activism and start the inconstitutionality of Judicial review. When they DON'T overturn a law that you oppose, as in te case of Obamacare, you accuse them of NOT doing their jobs and overturning the law.

Apparently, the Judicial power of the United States was vested on one Bigun.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I agree with Cyber Liberty.

The right decision would have been for Justice Roberts to say something like this --- It can be done with the proviso that the so called Penalty is a Tax. However, the law as it is written and as Obama himself said -- it is NOT a tax but it is a PENALTY  for not  purchasing insurance. Therefore, I will have no choice but to rule that the law as written now is UNCONSTITUTIONAL since citizens are being penalized for NOT BUYING a product.

Government has no authority to penalize Americans for refusing to purchase any product.

I therefore ask Congress to RE-WRITE the law to EXPLICITLY impose a tax IN WRITING.

Now, that would have been in keeping with his position as a judge, not as a legislator.

Thankfully, shit that Obama said didn't carry the weight of law. Only the actual law did.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Thankfully, shit that Obama said didn't carry the weight of law. Only the actual law did.

Oceander certainly made a good case for it.  I still don't like how Roberts pulled that justification from his hat, though.  Things like this are why most people don't trust courts. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Oceander certainly made a good case for it.  I still don't like how Roberts pulled that justification from his hat, though.  Things like this are why most people don't trust courts.

People either trust or distrust the Courts depending on whether their side wins or loses.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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 :hands: :hands:
Roberts didn't make something up out of whole cloth and judges are not confined to only those legal conclusions urged by the parties.  If the item in question fit the description of a tax sufficiently well in his professional opinion based on logic and available precedent, then it doesn't matter a hill of beans that nobody argued to the Court that it was a tax.

And it is the case that the effects of an action by government carry more weight than the label given to that action in deciding whether it's a tax.  There is caselaw holding that a fee for police and fire services - a charge by a local government that was not labeled a "tax" - was a tax, and not a fee for services because the payment was compulsory - i.e., a levy - and was due without regard to whether the payer ever used those services.  Thus, simply calling it a service fee does not mean that it is not a tax. 

The so-called individual responsibility part of Obastardcare fit the criteria for being a tax, and the holding that it was a tax was not unreasonable or unjustified, despite the fact that it wasn't a "tax" eo nomine and despite the fact that neither party argued for or against its being a tax.

Well said.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Cyber Liberty

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People either trust or distrust the Courts depending on whether their side wins or loses.

No, it depends on the perception it's a pure gamble, and there's no telling who will win, based on extra-legal things running through a Judge's mind.   I've had Judges give me what I wanted, yet still walked away thinking, "Gotta do my best to get this guy voted out."
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Well said.

I thought it was pretty good.  I don't have to like it.  Bottom line, Roberts said, "You made the mess, you clean it up."  And the end of the day that was the important part, at least to me, because that's how it needs to work.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline bigheadfred

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People either trust or distrust the Courts depending on whether their side wins or loses.

People don't trust the courts because there are a huge amount of judges sitting who are too incompetent to succeed in a private practice and they make careers out of making shit up as they go along.  And it is one big club of azzholes backing each other up.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Bigun

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What I know is where you stand on this issue; I've been reading your posts for years.

When the Courts overturn laws that yuou don't agree with, you accuse them of engaging in Judicial activism and start the inconstitutionality of Judicial review. When they DON'T overturn a law that you oppose, as in te case of Obamacare, you accuse them of NOT doing their jobs and overturning the law.

Apparently, the Judicial power of the United States was vested on one Bigun.

I have argued and will continue to argue that the notion of judicial review is something the Constitution confers on SCOTUS is baloney! That is what we call a FACT!

That however, has nothing at to do with their continued insistence on doing it and nothing at all to do with the court taking upon itself the ability to re-write a law in order to achieve it's desired outcome under the color of judicial review!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Jazzhead

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Roberts didn't make something up out of whole cloth and judges are not confined to only those legal conclusions urged by the parties.  If the item in question fit the description of a tax sufficiently well in his professional opinion based on logic and available precedent, then it doesn't matter a hill of beans that nobody argued to the Court that it was a tax.

And it is the case that the effects of an action by government carry more weight than the label given to that action in deciding whether it's a tax.  There is caselaw holding that a fee for police and fire services - a charge by a local government that was not labeled a "tax" - was a tax, and not a fee for services because the payment was compulsory - i.e., a levy - and was due without regard to whether the payer ever used those services.  Thus, simply calling it a service fee does not mean that it is not a tax. 

The so-called individual responsibility part of Obastardcare fit the criteria for being a tax, and the holding that it was a tax was not unreasonable or unjustified, despite the fact that it wasn't a "tax" eo nomine and despite the fact that neither party argued for or against its being a tax.

Excellent post.  Face it, those who criticize Justice Roberts do so because he didn't give them the result they wanted.   They wanted Roberts and the SCOTUS to be the deus ex machina that killed ObamaCare.   

Folks got to get off their lazy carcasses and work to elect legislatures,  not hope a judge will do their dirty work for them.  Roberts should be seen as a conservative hero,  for recognizing the limitations of his role and judging on the basis of the law.  Instead he's reviled - or slandered, as with this odious blackmail charge - by partisan assholes because he refuses to become their whore.   
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 02:18:22 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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I have argued and will continue to argue that the notion of judicial review is something the Constitution confers on SCOTUS is baloney! That is what we call a FACT!

A FACT?  And not just your eccentric opinion?

My goodness, you're full of more hot air than a dirigible. 
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A FACT?  And not just your eccentric opinion?

My goodness, you're full of more hot air than a dirigible.

Don't talk Jazz! Prove me wrong by showing me exactly where that duty is conferred on the court by the Constitution!

Do that and the argument is forever over!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline TomSea

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A FACT?  And not just your eccentric opinion?

My goodness, you're full of more hot air than a dirigible.

 000hehehehe

That's a funny thing to say, not laughing at anyone.