LYING IS BAD: 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Defend Trump's Lies Just Because You Like The Outcome

[EasyAce]

Sometimes it is necessary stray from a strict definition of the truth in order to accomplish a greater good.  Also humans are not prefect and don't always get it right on the first go around.

Without once standing up for human perfection that's impossible to attain (so, for that matter, is perfection
in "society," however you define it, though politicians earn their keep in considerable portion by denying
that the perfect society is impossible), I seem to remember the acolytes of His Excellency Al-Hashish Field
Marshmallow Dr. Barack Obama Dada, COD, RIP, LSMFT, Would-Have-Been-Life President of the Republic
Formerly Known as the United States, saying the same thing when he was caught lying, early enough
and often enough. Not to mention those of several previous presidents or presidential aspirants.

Funny thing, I was watching part of my DVD set of the entire run of All in the Family the other
day and one line about Watergate stuck with me---when Archie replied to the Meathead, Richard E.
Nixon did not lie! He just forgot to tell the truth! I wonder whether Mr. Nixon---assuming he chose not
to resign but, rather, to face the likely impeachment process as he remained in office---would have gotten
away with saying he didn't lie but, merely, forgot to tell the truth. (One remembers Droopy Drawers Clinton
offering much the same argument, though he didn't phrase it quite that way, as his impeachment
proceedings approached.)

[INVAR]

If you think Trump is going to result with roasting folks in ovens, why don't you go protest in the street with signs claiming Trump is Hitler along with the rest of them?

We are discussing the mindset, the meme, the zeitgeist and thinking whereby justifying the means to the end simply because someone we support is put into office - ends up in horror and catastrophe as history teaches.

I'm sorry if you cannot comprehend that the discussion is not always about Trump in particular, but the attitude that he and society are demonstrating in their promotion of ideas and actions that destroy the character of a nation.

We are discussing where such mindsets lead.  Whether or not Trump spearheads it, leads us into it or returns us back to righteousness, has yet to be seen.  But the wholesale acceptance and justification for the ends justifies the means, leads societies to their end.

I'm quite happy with a few of the initiatives and things Trump has initiated this past week.  I do not know if that will continue - or if this is just to get his list of promises out of the way so he can settle into ruling as he sees fit.

History teaches that among the constituencies that support the rise of despots, things improve dramatically for that constituency for the short term - before the consequences of a ruler's actions and appetites punishes the whole nation.

Unless we are wary of that fact and vigilant to prevent it - we run the risk of ending up just the same.

[musiclady]

I cannot stand the misapplication of scripture.

The occasion was the application of the death penalty for Adultery by a totally unjust effort by the Pharisees to entrap Jesus into diminishing who He was and asserting their authority over Him as judges, juries and executioners under the Law.  They did not bring out the man who as copulating with the woman (also an adulterer) - just the woman.  And at the end Jesus told her to go and sin no more.  Meaning, if the next day she got caught doing the same thing and Jesus was not there - the sentence would be carried out.

Sin was still sin.  Do it no more.

The effort to use that verse to SILENCE anyone calling out sin and those who promote its use is one of the greatest tools Satan has employed in this country.

First of all, this is the same verse used to get society to accept what was once considered evil and an abomination.  Because we all sin and fall short of the Glory, Alinsky used that truth to instruct those in the ways of Lucifer to demand that their opposition live up to perfection- which we clearly cannot.  Only One was Perfect.  This technique has been used to define deviancy down, to eliminate sin and evil and force the faithful to look the other way as the leavening of sin took over the culture and rotted the foundations.

So I sin and fall short - it is not a lifestyle with me. I do not therefore embrace sin as an acceptable practice and lifestyle simply because I fall short myself.  I'm striving to overcome my sins and become more like Him who Saved me. 

Just because we all sin does not mean we therefore should give a pass to those elected to high office, who use sinfulness to their advantage and teach society that sin is good, and right and the means to the end.

Excellent post, @INVAR

I get sick of the judgmentalism of Trump supporters against people who point out that deliberate, repeated, wanton sinfulness is not the same thing as the rest of us, who are ALL sinful, but strive for righteousness.

The misuse of the words of Jesus is troubling.  As you have skillfully and accurately pointed out, using that Scripture to somehow refute the valid points made about Trump's willful sinfulness is misapplication at its worst.

[INVAR]

Sometimes it is necessary stray from a strict definition of the truth in order to accomplish a greater good. 

Another colossal lie straight from the Devil.

"The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." - Genesis 3:4-5

[EasyAce]

@TomSea

100% untrue.  Red State praises and defends Trump when suitable, and criticizes him when warranted.  The same is true of Ben Shapiro; I see it every day on his Twitter timeline.

So do assorted Reason writers (not to mention several associated with the Cato Institute), but of course those
Losertarians have no intellectual credibility. (The fact that the magazine isn't an organ of the Libertarian Party
seems still to escape many, even if they did hint at a kind of lukewarm endorsement of Gary Johnson last year. For me
that candidacy was just another affirmation of why leaving the Libertarian Party was a move I haven't regretted in the
decade plus since: how they concluded a guy who was, if anything, the next best thing to a Rockefeller Republican
could possibly be a libertarian standard bearer still escapes me.)

I suspect you want zero criticism and unqualified praise.

Your suspicion is not unfounded in several #everTrump instances. Instances which demonstrate that the deeper they
dig in as apparent members of the cult of the presidency (this time, the cult leader is Donaldus Minimus; previously,
there have been others, as you and me have noted elsewhere), the less likely they are to persuade the unpersuaded.

[musiclady]

Sure it didn't.  ;)  "Roasting in ovens" doesn't bring to mind images of Hitler at all.  Got it.

That's not the same thing.  The mindset of allowing a leader to sin in order to achieve a goal is what is similar.

It never results in good.

[INVAR]

Sure it didn't.  ;)  "Roasting in ovens" doesn't bring to mind images of Hitler at all.  Got it.

When did recognizing that a people and their leaders who adopt the 'ends justifies the means' worldview ends in similar fashion as Germany did in the 40's become verboten?

We certainly had no problem on this board pointing out the similarities of Obama's Leftist worldview and mindset with genocidal maniacs from history.

[jpsb]

Why don't you calm down a little.  Neither DB nor INVAR drew that conclusion.

Bull here is the quote he was responding to "The ends justify the means type thinking eventually comes to people and ovens."

Now tell me who put people in ovens?

[Sanguine]

I wish y'all would go after the bad guys with as much vigor as you go after each other.

 

[Sanguine]

So do I, Sanguine.  So do I.

Then we've all got to quit piling on.  That includes you and me.

[INVAR]

Bull here is the quote he was responding to "The ends justify the means type thinking eventually comes to people and ovens."

Now tell me who put people in ovens?

Is that a true statement or not?  Does a worldview of 'ends justifies the means' lead to catastrophe and horror or not?

Doesn't have to be ovens.

The Jihad Caliphate operates on that same worldview - they use different methods to achieve what they want, but the end result is the same.

[EC]

Bull here is the quote he was responding to "The ends justify the means type thinking eventually comes to people and ovens."

Now tell me who put people in ovens?

ISIS - rather frequently.
Pol Pot
Idi Amin - albeit for different reasons than the usual.
The Chinese forces in Tibet under Mao.
Caligula.
The priests of Moloch.

It's a popular method of disposal.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Allowing a leader to sin?

I don't think he's too concerned right now with us allowing him to sin.  He's rather busy doing good for us.  Maybe after he's finished trying to keep his campaign promises, he'll have more time to be concerned with your need for his public repentance.  I rather doubt it as he was raised a Presbyterian, but possibly.  You can hope I suppose.

 

I wonder just what sin people are allowing President Trump to commit? 

[Right_in_Virginia]

Is that a true statement or not?  Does a worldview of 'ends justifies the means' lead to catastrophe and horror or not?

Doesn't have to be ovens.

The Jihad Caliphate operates on that same worldview - they use different methods to achieve what they want, but the end result is the same.

What the  hell are you talking about @INVAR ?????

[musiclady]

Allowing a leader to sin?

I don't think he's too concerned right now with us allowing him to sin.  He's rather busy doing good for us.  Maybe after he's finished trying to keep his campaign promises, he'll have more time to be concerned with your need for his public repentance.  I rather doubt it as he was raised a Presbyterian, but possibly.  You can hope I suppose.

What a ridiculous response to what I said.

Overlooking the fact that he's a pathological liar is problematic, no matter how much you contort and twist to alter what is being said here.

The mindset that it doesn't matter how debased a leader is because he is "doing good for us" is dangerous.

No matter how much you try to turn this on me with your silly ad hominems, the facts still remain that Donald Trump is deeply flawed and lacking in integrity.

It's clear that doesn't bother you.  That's fine.  It didn't bother a significant part of the electorate, and your guy won.

Bully for you.

But it doesn't change absolute truth no matter how much you try to make it do so.  And it doesn't change the fact that a culture that doesn't have a problem with Donald Trump is in deep trouble.

America is in trouble.

[musiclady]

I wish y'all would go after the bad guys with as much vigor as you go after each other.

 

As I see it, 'going after' Donald Trump is what we, as conservatives, should continue to do.

As the article states, "Lying is Bad."

It's remarkable that there should be any argument to the contrary, but here we are......   

[Right_in_Virginia]

As I see it, 'going after' Donald Trump is what we, as conservatives, should continue to do.

It's remarkable that there should be any argument to the contrary, but here we are...... 

Sure, conservatives need to stand up and proclaim they are against fair trade, returning jobs to America and securing our borders, repealing and replacing Obamacare, ending lobbying of foreign governments, standing with the unborn and appointing Originalist judges .

Yeah, that's the message.  I hope you lead the way @musiclady --- be sure to keep us posted.

[INVAR]

What the  hell are you talking about @INVAR ?????

I don't expect you to comprehend the points being made.

[Right_in_Virginia]

I don't expect you to comprehend the points being made.

Well, I do live on the planet Earth @INVAR and I don't hear voices in my head ... so perhaps you've got a valid, and good point.

Thanks for the compliment. 

[INVAR]

Sure, conservatives need to stand up and proclaim they are against fair trade, returning jobs to America and securing our borders, repealing and replacing Obamacare, ending lobbying of foreign governments, standing with the unborn and appointing Originalist judges .

Right out of the Democrat Playbook.

Next you will be telling us that if we do not genuflect and applaud Trump, we must want dirty air and filthy water and want to pollute the earth with wild abandon so we racists can get rich off of poor black people who are being robbed by our privilege and selfishness.

[EC]

Right out of the Democrat Playbook.

Next you will be telling us that if we do not genuflect and applaud Trump, we must want dirty air and filthy water and want to pollute the earth with wild abandon so we racists can get rich off of poor black people who are being robbed by our privilege and selfishness.

Dude ....

Stop spilling the secret plan!!!!

[INVAR]

Well, I do live on the planet Earth @INVAR and I don't hear voices in my head ... so perhaps you've got a valid, and good point.

Thanks for the compliment.

Exactly the kind of reply I expect from someone so far up a cult of personality's arse that they cannot comprehend a discussion about the danger of ends-justifies-the-means thinking.

In other words, it wasn't a compliment I paid you.

[musiclady]

I have no idea why you ever ping me, RiV.  You are the first and only one of two people on this forum whose behavior was so bad that it forced me to place you on permanent "IGNORE."

I don't read what you say when you ping me because you have no credibility.

So please stop.  It's a waste of your time to think I care what you have to say to me after the garbage you've flung.

[HonestJohn]

Don't be bleep stupid.

The statement involved the killing of one man.

Furthermore, Hiroshoma's population was about 200-300,000. 

Weighing the balance... millions dead versus hundreds of thousands dead... and the choice is clear which is right.

[Right_in_Virginia]

.../ it wasn't a compliment I paid you.

Yes, @INVAR, it certainly was.