Author Topic: LYING IS BAD: 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Defend Trump's Lies Just Because You Like The Outcome  (Read 19163 times)

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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You're a perfect example of why electing dishonest men is dangerous.  Dishonest men need dishonest men to support them.
Please explain in what way what I said is dishonest.

I do not like a man who lies, but will not condemn him for changing his mind and doing the right thing like some are doing.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline EC

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So if you were alive, you would not have liked Truman nuking Hiroshima or Nagasaki so the war could be prolonged and we could lose a million more US troops?

Right.

Don't be bleep stupid.

The statement involved the killing of one man.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Gross misinterpretation of that Scripture.

Jesus never told us to approve of sin.  And that is exactly what is being done by supporting Trump's lies and excusing them by saying every politician lies.

If you are trying to go to the Bible to defend unrepentant sin and pathological lying, you're going to fail.

Every time.
Where in this example did you get the idea that anyone approved of unrepentant sin?

Why make up things?

I do not like liars, but will forgive any who repent and do the right thing.

Are you not willing to do that?

I suggest you await the judgement of DT until he does the wrong things, not the right things.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Don't be bleep stupid.

The statement involved the killing of one man.
Ok, then how does the comparison of nuking a city compare with a guy changing his mind?

Please explain.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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We need to hold the President to a higher standard than we hold to ourselves. With Trump it seems to be a lower standard. No way that works out well.


And "conservatives" have lost all credibility on this issue.

Offline Victoria33

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The significance of that should be underscored, @Victoria33 .
I know some are thrilled by what Trump has DONE in the past week, but forgetting who he IS, is a big mistake.  I think I'm about 15 years younger than you, but I completely agree that I've never seen any politician as deceitful as Trump before.
But clearly integrity is no longer a criterion for Republicans any more than it has been for Democrats, and so we are in a small minority, I guess, in wishing that honor still mattered.
@musiclady
@CatherineofAragon
@Freya
@Quix 

Continual deceit will eventually end in chaos.  The only question is, how long will it take?  The chaos theory, proven by a mathematician is this:

Chaos theory:  One does not notice a very slight change, example being one flap of a butterfly's wings.  The flaps continue, building gradually, until critical mass is reached, then chaos happens.  My opinion, is, butterfly wings are flapping quickly and chaos is in the future.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Quote
led anti-nuclear marches, had Franklin Roosevelt as a hero, and joined the radical American Veterans Committee whose motto was "Citizens First, Veterans Second".

Aside from being a democrat who supported FDR that's not unexpected from a man who was a democrat at the time but to claim he opposed veterans is just plain lying. Using wikipedia as a source for anything remotely political is just crushing stupidity.

Offline Sanguine

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan

Google says that took 0.2 seconds to collect the info

Okay, now I'll admit at the beginning that I may have gotten a bit lost amongst all the contempt and anger being hurled about, but is it your claim, @IsailedawayfromFR, that Reagan was once a far left democrat?  And, that this wikipedia article supports that claim?

 

Offline Cripplecreek

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There is no disputing that Reagan was a democrat but there is nothing that suggests any great change in him. He didn't change, the party changed and left him.

The idea of Reagan being anti veteran is more than just a little odious. After all, Reagan volunteered to serve in WWII when he was a democrat. Its more than a little hard to believe that he would then turn and become anti veteran. WWII democrats were a whole different animal

Sadly I've seen good conservatives increasingly trashed by Trump supporters as a means of making Trump look better apparently. (Like a claim that Coolidge was a klansman)

Offline txradioguy

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There is no disputing that Reagan was a democrat but there is nothing that suggests any great change in him. He didn't change, the party changed and left him.

The idea of Reagan being anti veteran is more than just a little odious. After all, Reagan volunteered to serve in WWII when he was a democrat. Its more than a little hard to believe that he would then turn and become anti veteran. WWII democrats were a whole different animal

Sadly I've seen good conservatives increasingly trashed by Trump supporters as a means of making Trump look better apparently. (Like a claim that Coolidge was a klansman)

Apparently it's an attempt by the most feverent Trump supporters to tear down Reagan as no better than Trump. Because of past history.

It's a lame attempt...but an attempt all the same.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline musiclady

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Where in this example did you get the idea that anyone approved of unrepentant sin?

Why make up things?

I do not like liars, but will forgive any who repent and do the right thing.

Are you not willing to do that?

I suggest you await the judgement of DT until he does the wrong things, not the right things.

I didn't make anything up.   

I'm not the one who is going to judge DT.  He has lied about almost everything, and it's a pretty big assumption that he has repented, since he lied constantly on the campaign trail and never said he was sorry for any of his lies.

As for waiting, I'm just basing my opinion on the facts of his life and the words he says.  What he is presently "doing" as President is non germane to his lack of character.  He may end up doing a number of things that we "like."  Bully for us.

I'm just glad there are others on this forum who are not so willing to ignore the elephant in the room......

He lacks integrity, and that matters no matter how many EO's he spouts out that you and I happen to like.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline musiclady

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Apparently it's an attempt by the most feverent Trump supporters to tear down Reagan as no better than Trump. Because of past history.

It's a lame attempt...but an attempt all the same.

And they repeat the lame attempt ad nauseam.

But no matter how hard they try to bring Reagan down by the comparison, it won't work.

Historical facts can't be changed because of wishing and hoping....
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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@musiclady
@CatherineofAragon
@Freya
@Quix 

Continual deceit will eventually end in chaos.  The only question is, how long will it take?  The chaos theory, proven by a mathematician is this:

Chaos theory:  One does not notice a very slight change, example being one flap of a butterfly's wings.  The flaps continue, building gradually, until critical mass is reached, then chaos happens.  My opinion, is, butterfly wings are flapping quickly and chaos is in the future.

This election cycle was highly chaotic, and I believe that it is because both candidates were out of control with deceit.

The change from past elections is that, while the Democrat candidate has always been a serial liar, the Republican candidate has, even at worst, been more honorable, and the Republican party at least gave lip service to integrity.

That ended last spring, and IMO, has contributed greatly to the tremendous downturn in the honesty of the political process, and I agree that the atmosphere of deceit, and the arguments from "our" side that deceit is not a problem will lead eventually to complete chaos.

@Victoria33
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 04:22:23 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Okay, now I'll admit at the beginning that I may have gotten a bit lost amongst all the contempt and anger being hurled about, but is it your claim, @IsailedawayfromFR, that Reagan was once a far left democrat?  And, that this wikipedia article supports that claim?
The point is that the early Reagan was distinctly a different person than the one who came into the Presidency.

He had a change in heart and ultimately abandoned the not-too-good concepts he had embraced and pursued a conservative philosophy.

Am hopeful that DT will do the same, and with the start he has made his first week in office, am optimistic.

If he degrades into his old self, it will not be good.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Apparently it's an attempt by the most feverent Trump supporters to tear down Reagan as no better than Trump. Because of past history.

It's a lame attempt...but an attempt all the same.
Nobody is tearing down Reagan.  Reagan changed for the better, and so maybe Trump.

Am not a Trump supporter, but really like the present actions of DT in his first week of office.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline musiclady

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The point is that the early Reagan was distinctly a different person than the one who came into the Presidency.

He had a change in heart and ultimately abandoned the not-too-good concepts he had embraced and pursued a conservative philosophy.

Am hopeful that DT will do the same, and with the start he has made his first week in office, am optimistic.

If he degrades into his old self, it will not be good.

Why do you completely ignore the facts about Reagan from the time he left the Democrat party until he became President?

Have you never read his writings from the 1960's on?  Did you never hear his speeches?

How can you make assertions about him and compare him with DT when you are completely in the dark as to who Reagan was (and who DT has been)??
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Sanguine

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The point is that the early Reagan was distinctly a different person than the one who came into the Presidency.

He had a change in heart and ultimately abandoned the not-too-good concepts he had embraced and pursued a conservative philosophy.

Am hopeful that DT will do the same, and with the start he has made his first week in office, am optimistic.

If he degrades into his old self, it will not be good.

OK, I agree with most of that.  In some ways, I'm a very different person than I was 40 years ago; in others, little to no change.

I'm with you - I hope DT does us well.  Reagan's past was more indicative of someone who would would do well, but then you never know until you can look backwards.  Sometimes not even then.  And, I'm willing to wait and see what the guy actually does in office.

Offline EC

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Ok, then how does the comparison of nuking a city compare with a guy changing his mind?

Please explain.

*ROLLS EYES*

Your statement:

"If this is changed to say "If we do what is right in the end, then how we got there is less important", would that give you any change of heart?"

My counter reply:

killing bin Laden = Good
Killing bin Laden by nuking an entire city = Not Good

First you try to rabbit hole me by asking about Truman using nukes to end WW2, now you are asking what nuking a city has to compare with a guy changing his mind - which is no where referenced in your initial statement. Your initial statement was a re-phrasing of "the end justifies the means."

The end does not always justify the means to obtain it. OK? Not a difficult concept.
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Offline INVAR

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The ends justify the means type thinking eventually comes to people and ovens. Once you start justifying evil actions for the greater good the limits eventually just fade away into raw evil. The prior smaller evils that "got results" numbs one to the greater evils that follow - all for the greater good. And people who review history wonder how that happens. It is becoming apparent.

Most salient point made yet.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline txradioguy

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If you think Trump is going to result with roasting folks in ovens, why don't you go protest in the street with signs claiming Trump is Hitler along with the rest of them?

Invar 's comment had nothing to do with Hitler or comparing Trump to him.

Neither did the comment he quoted.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Oceander

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If you think Trump is going to result with roasting folks in ovens, why don't you go protest in the street with signs claiming Trump is Hitler along with the rest of them?

Why don't you calm down a little.  Neither DB nor INVAR drew that conclusion.

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Red State, Daily Wire and Reason, love these sources, they were anti-Trump before the election and remain so with minimum accomplishments themselves.

@TomSea

So are you defending the position that the ends justify the means?

Offline INVAR

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“Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

I cannot stand the misapplication of scripture.

The occasion was the application of the death penalty for Adultery by a totally unjust effort by the Pharisees to entrap Jesus into diminishing who He was and asserting their authority over Him as judges, juries and executioners under the Law.  They did not bring out the man who as copulating with the woman (also an adulterer) - just the woman.  And at the end Jesus told her to go and sin no more.  Meaning, if the next day she got caught doing the same thing and Jesus was not there - the sentence would be carried out.

Sin was still sin.  Do it no more.

The effort to use that verse to SILENCE anyone calling out sin and those who promote its use is one of the greatest tools Satan has employed in this country.

First of all, this is the same verse used to get society to accept what was once considered evil and an abomination.  Because we all sin and fall short of the Glory, Alinsky used that truth to instruct those in the ways of Lucifer to demand that their opposition live up to perfection- which we clearly cannot.  Only One was Perfect.  This technique has been used to define deviancy down, to eliminate sin and evil and force the faithful to look the other way as the leavening of sin took over the culture and rotted the foundations.

So I sin and fall short - it is not a lifestyle with me. I do not therefore embrace sin as an acceptable practice and lifestyle simply because I fall short myself.  I'm striving to overcome my sins and become more like Him who Saved me. 

Just because we all sin does not mean we therefore should give a pass to those elected to high office, who use sinfulness to their advantage and teach society that sin is good, and right and the means to the end.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline jpsb

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A bit over the top.

@IsailedawayfromFR

A bit over the top is the defining characteristic of a NeverTrumper.

Sometimes it is necessary stray from a strict definition of the truth in order to accomplish a greater good.  Also humans are not prefect and don't always get it right on the first go around. Should Trump have a change of heart on this or that to accuse him of deliberately lying about the issue would be IMHO unfair. However you can bet the NeverTrumpers will do just that.

Offline jpsb

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@TomSea

100% untrue.  Red State praises and defends Trump when suitable, and criticizes him when warranted.  The same is true of Ben Shapiro; I see it every day on his Twitter timeline.

I suspect you want zero criticism and unqualified praise.  Since this isn't North Korea, that isn't about to happen.

@CatherineofAragon

Since I flat out refuse to click on a link to RedState I will take your word on this. What I suspect is going on this that Red State (like Glen Beck and numerous other NeverTrumpers) is trying to make itself relent again. Well I can only speak for myself but this Trump supporter does not give a damn about what any NeverTrumper has to say about Trump, period. They have been proven wrong on everything they have ever say about Trump and have ZERO credibility on any and all things Trump.

If they want to talk about issues ok fine, we can talk, if they want to talk about Trump I'm not listening.