LYING IS BAD: 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Defend Trump's Lies Just Because You Like The Outcome

[jpsb]

Exactly correct.

I have an in-law who grew up in Hitler's Youth and one of the things he remembers is exactly what you describe in terms of how wonderful Germany was for Germans shortly after he assumed power.  For five or six years he said that he worked a miracle for the country - which is why he said his own mother loved and saluted him until the day she died in 2007.

You people are crazy! I am going to bed, see you crazes in the morning.

[sneakypete]

Glad to see that you understand the two nukes.

@truth_seeker  @Smokin Joe


Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the only times in all of history that bombing civilian population centers didn't just result in pissing off the population and making them want to dig their heels in and fight harder.

IMHO,"Bomber Harris" and those who agreed to his mass fire-bombings of non-military cities like Dresden should have been put on war crimes trials with the Nazi's and (most) of the Japanese nobility and leadership. There was absolutely nothing at all of military significance in Dresden,other than a German military hospital treating wounded German soldiers. Yet they dropped fire bombs there to the point where many men,women,and children literally suffocated from loss of oxygen while hiding in bomb shelters.

[Smokin Joe]

Everything thing you said after "Hitler"

Hitler deceived, strong-armed, and took power he wasn't supposed to have...

 But by the time the Autobahn was under construction, the German military was being modernized, the Olympics were held there (less than 20 years after The Great War), the economy was well on the upswing, and the average German didn't care what rules he bent.
It was a relief from the unemployment, inflation, and economic demise they had suffered, and once again, Germany could be proud. He was Making Germany Great Again.
The rest of the world was so impressed they supported him despite some of his less appealing policies, that group including some prominent Americans, and the Versailles limitations on the German Military were ignored--all prior to overt hostile acts. German Zeppelins luxuriously crossed the Atlantic with swastikas prominently displayed on the tail fins, a wonder of the day (at least until that little problem at Lakehurst NJ).
Even after some land grabs, Chamberlain came back proclaiming 'Peace in our time'.
The Jews who fled often had difficulty finding other countries to accept them, if they fled en masse, and only those on the downside of his domestic programs objected, to either the derision of their countrymen, or their demise, but seldom finding anyone to listen.

As far as the rest of Germany, multitudes looked the other way or remained as ignorant of anything wrong as they could.

That isn't the result of caffeine consumption, but human nature, and that doesn't change when  I run out of coffee.

[Smokin Joe]

You people are crazy! I am going to bed, see you crazes in the morning.

I wish we were, but that is how the Germans I talked with saw him, and much of the world before the war. One of them spent her high school years on a crew 'manning' an 88mm antiaircraft gun outside Berlin. They ignored the wrong he did, because of the things which either benefited them directly or made them swell with national(ist) pride, and didn't wake up to that until after the war.
You see the same love of Stalin in Russians today, proud that he (the 'Strongman') defeated the Nazis. It might not make much sense to those of us who, from the outside, or looking in retrospect see a different picture, but the whole show has played out. Germany in 1938 had a very different view.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with being proud of your country--I am proud of mine, despite its flaws--and the fact that a couple of past presidents have been a horrible and damaging embarrassment (especially Clinton and Obama), but I AM willing to recognize those flaws, and to point them out. One of the reasons I am proud to be an American is that we can point out those flaws, even if we disagree about them, and discuss them, and work to make our country better.

Impale that right on any -ism or ideology, or cult of personality, and America loses.

[INVAR]

You people are crazy! I am going to bed, see you crazes in the morning.

That's right.  People who actually LIVED history and are telling their posterity of what actually happened are CRAZY because it doesn't jive with whatever you were taught in the public school system and by Hollywood.

[Smokin Joe]

@truth_seeker  @Smokin Joe


Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the only times in all of history that bombing civilian population centers didn't just result in pissing off the population and making them want to dig their heels in and fight harder.

IMHO,"Bomber Harris" and those who agreed to his mass fire-bombings of non-military cities like Dresden should have been put on war crimes trials with the Nazi's and (most) of the Japanese nobility and leadership. There was absolutely nothing at all of military significance in Dresden,other than a German military hospital treating wounded German soldiers. Yet they dropped fire bombs there to the point where many men,women,and children literally suffocated from loss of oxygen while hiding in bomb shelters.

The victor will always be the judge, the vanquished the accused.

Hermann Göring, during the Nuremberg Tribunals.

[EC]

In-laws grew up under Mussolini. Mother in Law still thinks he was a great man to this day. (insert your own joke here).

Father in Law, on the other hand ... now THERE was a man. He was in military school in Turin when Italy surrendered. His father was a general who took his regiment into the mountains around Naples in the dead of night to join what would become the resistance. FiL walked the length of Italy to join up with his father. Took him three weeks. He was 16.

[Frank Cannon]

First of all,I quit drinking in the early 80's.

Which is the reason why you are a dullard.

[sneakypete]

Which is the reason why you are a dullard.

@Frank Cannon

True,but at least I usually know what state I am in and where I live these days. There's a lot to be said for that.

[Frank Cannon]

@Frank Cannon

True,but at least I usually know what state I am in and where I live these days. There's a lot to be said for that.

You give yourself to much credit.

[Victoria33]

Hitler deceived, strong-armed, and took power he wasn't supposed to have...

 But by the time the Autobahn was under construction, the German military was being modernized, the Olympics were held there (less than 20 years after The Great War), the economy was well on the upswing, and the average German didn't care what rules he bent.
It was a relief from the unemployment, inflation, and economic demise they had suffered, and once again, Germany could be proud. He was Making Germany Great Again.
The rest of the world was so impressed they supported him despite some of his less appealing policies, that group including some prominent Americans, and the Versailles limitations on the German Military were ignored--all prior to overt hostile acts. German Zeppelins luxuriously crossed the Atlantic with swastikas prominently displayed on the tail fins, a wonder of the day (at least until that little problem at Lakehurst NJ).
Even after some land grabs, Chamberlain came back proclaiming 'Peace in our time'.
The Jews who fled often had difficulty finding other countries to accept them, if they fled en masse, and only those on the downside of his domestic programs objected, to either the derision of their countrymen, or their demise, but seldom finding anyone to listen.
As far as the rest of Germany, multitudes looked the other way or remained as ignorant of anything wrong as they could.
That isn't the result of caffeine consumption, but human nature, and that doesn't change when  I run out of coffee.

@Smokin Joe

You have the history exactly correct.  We had a German husband and wife who lived near us.  He was one of the very young men Hitler sent to fight the Russians.  He became sick in Russia and the German in charge said he would die if he was not sent back, so the young man was sent back to Germany.  He told the same story about Germany you just stated - Hitler was helping the country, until he wasn't.  His wife said where she lived in Germany, they didn't know the Jews were being murdered until it was well under way.

A story about this German man:  His car stopped in our subdivision near our house and my husband went to help him.  He got the car started, drove it to the man's house and then fixed the problem (I don't remember what it was).  The German said, "How did you do that?"  Husband said, "That is why we won the war."

[Cripplecreek]

Hitler deceived, strong-armed, and took power he wasn't supposed to have...

 But by the time the Autobahn was under construction, the German military was being modernized, the Olympics were held there (less than 20 years after The Great War), the economy was well on the upswing, and the average German didn't care what rules he bent.
It was a relief from the unemployment, inflation, and economic demise they had suffered, and once again, Germany could be proud. He was Making Germany Great Again.
The rest of the world was so impressed they supported him despite some of his less appealing policies, that group including some prominent Americans, and the Versailles limitations on the German Military were ignored--all prior to overt hostile acts. German Zeppelins luxuriously crossed the Atlantic with swastikas prominently displayed on the tail fins, a wonder of the day (at least until that little problem at Lakehurst NJ).
Even after some land grabs, Chamberlain came back proclaiming 'Peace in our time'.
The Jews who fled often had difficulty finding other countries to accept them, if they fled en masse, and only those on the downside of his domestic programs objected, to either the derision of their countrymen, or their demise, but seldom finding anyone to listen.

As far as the rest of Germany, multitudes looked the other way or remained as ignorant of anything wrong as they could.

That isn't the result of caffeine consumption, but human nature, and that doesn't change when  I run out of coffee.

One of the forgotten historical aspects is the number of suicides there were in Germany at the end. My grandfather said they found beerhalls full of Germans who had committed suicide 5 and 6 hundred at a time. He said he didn't see them but he was a radioman and official reports were relayed through him.

In the beginning the nazis definitely tried to hide their atrocities at home because the Jews were not universally hated in Germany. I remember reading about Jewish Iron Cross holders being used as propaganda by being sent to live in resort towns in comfort at taxpayer expense to show how much the nazis loved and respected their heroes. The story broke down when a train mix up accidentally sent  some journalists to a prison camp where the Iron cross holders actually went. The nazis crushed the story through intimidation and treating it like some craxy conspiracy theory.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I honestly don't think they care. They have picked a team to play on,and by GAWD they are never going to admit they may have been mistaken. They NEED for Trump to fail so they can feel good about themselves as they wet their Depends and jump up and down in joy while screaming,"See? I was right! I TOLD YOU SO!"

They don't really give a damn about the country. What they care about is being "right".

A child behaves the same way you describe.  They refuse to mature.

Ironically, instead they call you and me children that have not grown up with morals.
@sneakypete

[sneakypete]

MacArthur did well for quite a while, and very well by the Japanese People.

But Gen Douglas MacArthur also lost sight of who was boss later, and he and President Truman got in a wrangle over who was CIC during the Korean War--which got MacArthur sacked.

@Smokin Joe

MacArthur lost sight of nothing. He saw himself as the next Supreme Ruler of the United States,and Truman say him as the political threat to the Dim Party that he was,so he fired him while he had the perfect excuse.

Like Trump,McArthur was an outsider that wanted to be an insiders,but starting at the top instead of doing all the ass-kissing necessary of "pledges" trying out for acceptance in the farm team system of political power,and like Trump,as an outsider he was a serious threat to the futures of BOTH the Dim and the Republican drones that ran and run both parties like a corporate board. Or maybe using the Board of Cardinals and the Pope as reference points would better illustrate the point I am making. NOBODY starts out as the Pope/President. You MUST do the dirty work with the dirty people first,and spend decades kissing asses as well as rings,and worming your way into one clique or another as you climb the ladder to domination. Both Trump and MacArthur are outsiders who thought they were too good to play by the established rules,and both were/are a serious danger to the old farm team system of privilege and power.

And that's why the power structure hates Trump on a level almost impossible to truly understand. He is a threat to everything they have devoted to their lives and sold their honor and self-respect to achieve. He's there,sitting on the throne now,and he doesn't owe a single damn cog in the political system a single damn thing. Hell,it's even worse than that in THEIR eyes because if he "owes" them anything,it is payback for the bribes he has had to pay them to conduct his businesses. In effect,he is a threat to them in more than just one respect. As a sitting president,he is in a position to get almost any of them fired and investigated by the Justice Department.

BTW,anybody else nothing how that homo Chuck Todd on NBC's Sunday chat fest isn't even pretending to not be a partisan Dim anymore? It seemed to me his whole focus this morning was on  how to damage Trump and plan strategies to help get the Dims back in power.

[jpsb]

@CatherineofAragon

@jpsb, just for sheer curiosity's sake, I went over to redstate.com and did a scan of the front page.  I counted five complimentary articles about Trump, four critical, and one neutral (it was a clip of Ivana's toddler learning to walk in the White House).

Like I saidI want nothing to do with Red State. And here is one of my reasons why

Red State contributor


Red State Founder


you can see more Here



I don't understand the idea that any of these sources are "trying to be relevant" again.  They've always been relevant and continue to be so, unless you think that the media should be biased toward Trump and do nothing but praise him.  Is that what you'd like? 

Failure to be be 100% pro-Trump has absolutely nothing to do with relevancy.  The claim is born from pure emotion, not fact.

News media is relevant when they are honest and unbiased in presenting facts. Most NeverTrumpers are not honest and have an anti-Trump bias. You are one of the very few NTers that is mostly honest which is why we can have a conservation. I am beginning to think you are not really a hard core NeverTrumper

Speaking of emotion, it's interesting to me that the only people you want to hear talk about your president are his fans.  Why?  Don't you understand that it's not your job to be a fan club supporter of a politician?  He works for you.  You owe him nothing.

I think we all owe him and his administration a chance to be successful. This nation really does not need another failed presidency. His agenda is mostly conservative I would think conservatives would be happy about that.

Trump supporters cheer the concept of bringing union workers and Democrats and homosexuals and everyone else into the big tent.  Everyone except those who didn't vote for Trump.  That's the unforgivable sin, because you're too personally wrapped up in some guy in the Oval Office.

I am not cool with the anti-Christian homosexual agenda, so there I very much disagree with Trump, however there are bigger fish to fry like borders, immigration, ISIS, jobs and nation security. The more folks (unions) that sign up to advancing a conservative America First agenda the better our chances are of achieving that agenda. Anyone that once to help advance our agenda is welcome aboard except the rabid filthy hard core NeverTrumpers that did all it could to elect Hillary. Those people can go pound sand.

Ted Cruz apparently forgave Trump for slandering his wife, but you won't forgive, so to speak, those who didn't support your particular candidate for president.  Doesn't it seem to you that maybe your perspective is a little off?

Cruz started that fight by attacking Melania Trump and calling her unfit to be First Lady. I have fully forgiven Cruz since he backed Trump prior to the election and has been a big help to Trump in his battle with the globalist Marxist in DC. I will be supporting Cruz in his reelection campaign in 2018. I think Cruzs' meeting with the Texans delegation after his speech at the GOP convention helped Cruz to see the light. Had Cruz remained a NeverTrumper his Texas seat was in real danger. One thing I will give Cruz is that he eventually gets things right.

This is from a different thread but I'll post it here too.

What conservatives should realize is that ever since Zero we (regular middle/working class Americans) are engaged in an all out war with the globalist Marxists in the Democrat Party and the globalist Neocons in the Republican Party. These folks nick picking Trump every move are siding with the Marxists/Neocons over regular Americans. A little constructive criticism I can understand but all this fake outrage is ridiculous. We are at war and we will not win if we can not unite behind our leaders. The Rats know this and that is why they and their ally the MSM are doing everything they can to keep us and the country as divided as possible. 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Politics in general, left wing, right wing, pro trump, anti trump... is filled with people these days who you would not want to let into your house.


Vile stuff.

[INVAR]

We are at war and we will not win if we can not unite behind our leaders. The Rats know this and that is why they and their ally the MSM are doing everything they can to keep us and the country as divided as possible. 

That is also the perfect recipe for instituting a nationalist dictatorship and getting the masses to salute a dear leader.

I'm not interested in that.

I will not unite behind a man.

I will unite behind the foundational principles that forged us and stand only with those who uphold those principles.

Uniting behind men rather than principle is how Republics become dictatorships.  See Julius and Octavian for reference.

[jpsb]

@Smokin Joe

MacArthur lost sight of nothing. He saw himself as the next Supreme Ruler of the United States,and Truman say him as the political threat to the Dim Party that he was,so he fired him while he had the perfect excuse.

Like Trump,MacArthur was an outsider that wanted to be an insiders,but starting at the top instead of doing all the ass-kissing necessary of "pledges" trying out for acceptance in the farm team system of political power,and like Trump,as an outsider he was a serious threat to the futures of BOTH the Dim and the Republican drones that ran and run both parties like a corporate board. Or maybe using the Board of Cardinals and the Pope as reference points would better illustrate the point I am making. NOBODY starts out as the Pope/President. You MUST do the dirty work with the dirty people first,and spend decades kissing asses as well as rings,and worming your way into one clique or another as you climb the ladder to domination. Both Trump and MacArthur are outsiders who thought they were too good to play by the established rules,and both were/are a serious danger to the old farm team system of privilege and power.

And that's why the power structure hates Trump on a level almost impossible to truly understand. He is a threat to everything they have devoted to their lives and sold their honor and self-respect to achieve. He's there,sitting on the throne now,and he doesn't owe a single damn cog in the political system a single damn thing. Hell,it's even worse than that in THEIR eyes because if he "owes" them anything,it is payback for the bribes he has had to pay them to conduct his businesses. In effect,he is a threat to them in more than just one respect. As a sitting president,he is in a position to get almost any of them fired and investigated by the Justice Department.

BTW,anybody else nothing how that homo Chuck Todd on NBC's Sunday chat fest isn't even pretending to not be a partisan Dim anymore? It seemed to me his whole focus this morning was on  how to damage Trump and plan strategies to help get the Dims back in power.

Truman was willing to lose the Korean war just to damage MacArthur, one example.

MacArthur was using the threat of invading from Formosa to keep the Chinese out of the war. Truman didn't like that so Truman sent the 7th fleet into the Taiwan straight with orders to prevent any invasion from Formosa. Basically Truman was guarding the enemies flank. Well that freed up a lot of Chinese troops for use else where and guess where all those troops went? Yup Korea. Truman was a fool.

[EasyAce]

That is also the perfect recipe for instituting a nationalist dictatorship and getting the masses to salute a dear leader.

The good news: we haven't had the proper, full dictatorship yet. (Emphasis on yet.)

The bad news: we've been the "we are at war" route before, whether it was getting the masses to salute a dear Democratic
leader or getting them to salute a dear Republican leader. (I mean, how often did we see His Excellency Obama's
sycophancy "reminding" one and all that we were at war? How often did we see President Lips II's sycophancy
"reminding" one and all that we were at war---and not merely referencing the 9/11 aftermaths?)

The route is merely another byway for the presidential cultists no matter who holds the office, if not for those who hold the
office no matter what the masses (actual or alleged) were thinking, and has been for several generations, regardless of
whether the country was actually at war.

[jpsb]

That is also the perfect recipe for instituting a nationalist dictatorship and getting the masses to salute a dear leader.

I'm not interested in that.

I will not unite behind a man.

I will unite behind the foundational principles that forged us and stand only with those who uphold those principles.

Uniting behind men rather than principle is how Republics become dictatorships.  See Julius and Octavian for reference.

You're insane if you think the GOP is going to institute National Socialist Party similar to the NAZI party in 30s' Germany. Now the Dems might but the GOP? Never, not going to happen.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

You're insane if you think the GOP is going to institute National Socialist Party similar to the NAZI party in 30s' Germany. Now the Dems might but the GOP? Never, not going to happen.

They sure might sanction some authoritarian policies though.

[INVAR]

The good news: we haven't had the proper, full dictatorship yet. (Emphasis on yet.)

No.  We've had the DEFACTO one that everyone grew comfortable with and the GOP fully funded and empowered, to the point of surrendering their own powers and oversights to the Executive.

[EasyAce]

No.  We've had the DEFACTO one that everyone grew comfortable with and the GOP fully funded and empowered, to the point of surrendering their own powers and oversights to the Executive.

Surrendering to the executive has happened for a long time, now. The question may be whether and which
Congress will have the spine at last to reclaim Congress's legislative supremacy and insist that the Constitution
grants the president to recommend legislation from time to time, not a rubber stamp on any or every
legislative-type thing he wants to do. (It would also help if at long enough last the executive order was
restored at last to its core original function of administering the executive branch, not as an end-run around
Congress.)

[INVAR]

You're insane if you think the GOP is going to institute National Socialist Party similar to the NAZI party in 30s' Germany. Now the Dems might but the GOP? Never, not going to happen.

Why am I insane to understand that your call for us to unite under a man and a party because you assert we are 'at war' with subversives, is how dictatorships are fully established?  Big Government Statism run by an imperial Executive is something the GOP and the Democrats fully empowered together.

The GOP was fine and dandy with Obama's version of Mussolini's Statism.  The GOP taught us that they think they can manage Big Government Socialism better than the Democrats.  They will just call it 'patriotism', regardless of which "ism" it  actually masks.

In fact, Obama and Pelosi already invoked that absurdity if I recall correctly.

[INVAR]

Surrendering to the executive has happened for a long time, now. The question may be whether and which
Congress will have the spine at last to reclaim Congress's legislative supremacy and insist that the Constitution
grants the president to recommend legislation from time to time, not a rubber stamp on any or every
legislative-type thing he wants to do. (It would also help if at long enough last the executive order was
restored at last to its core original function of administering the executive branch, not as an end-run around
Congress.)

I'm certainly not holding my breath.