Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today

[r9etb]

And can you identify that "magic moment" when a fetus becomes "viable"?

Actually, it's "viable" the entire time, within its natural environment.

The "viability" argument is like saying it's OK to kill astronauts because they can't live outside their spacecraft.

[dfwgator]

What is important is that the woman have a real and meaningful right to choose her future.   I don't object to a statute setting a specified time at which viability is assumed.  But a law that prohibits abortion before viability  - as reasonably defined - cannot stand.

And what about the future for the baby?

[Jazzhead]

Actually, it's "viable" the entire time, within its natural environment.

The "viability" argument is like saying it's OK to kill astronauts because they can't live outside their spacecraft.

I'm not saying it's "OK" to kill a fetus (or an astronaut).  The government is responsible for the spacecraft in which an astronaut rides.   But a woman is responsible for the "spacecraft" in which her fetus resides.   

  You're correct that a fetus, if left alone, will grow and be born.  That's why I agree with you that abortion, in most circumstances, is wrong.    But it still must be the woman's choice, because it will always be her burden, and hers alone.   It's not up to the government to compel her to reproduce.       

[Jazzhead]

And what about the future for the baby?

That's up to the woman to decide - not the state.   I know you don't like that answer, but it's the only answer that's consistent with the woman's liberty. 

[r9etb]

That's up to the woman to decide - not the state.   I know you don't like that answer, but it's the only answer that's consistent with the woman's liberty.

Why is it that you never, ever, EVER seem to answer the question about the humanity and rights of the child?

[txradioguy]

That's up to the woman to decide - not the state.   I know you don't like that answer, but it's the only answer that's consistent with the woman's liberty.

Why doesn't the man who helped create that life have a say?

Funny that you equate women's "Liberty" with her ability to kill an unborn baby.  How is that "Liberty"?

But then that's the problem with women's "rights" these days for the most part anyway.  Supporters of what passes for women's rights these days are only concerned with what's between a woman's legs...not between her ears.

[Cyber Liberty]

But it still must be the woman's choice, because it will always be her burden, and hers alone.       

You've never had to pay child support, have you?

[txradioguy]

Why is it that you never, ever, EVER seem to answer the question about the humanity and rights of the child?

Because that would require JH to look at what's happening from a human stand point...not the cold clinical one abortion supporters use.

Makes the position a little harder to justify and defend.

[Cyber Liberty]

Why is it that you never, ever, EVER seem to answer the question about the humanity and rights of the child?

He's not really big on the idea of "Natural Rights."  Ask him about the right to self-defense sometime.

[chae]

As a staunch pro-lifer (adopted when I was 4 days old, in 1976, bio-father was married and pressuring bio-mother to have an abortion)  I can't argue with people who are pro-abortion because it makes me irate.
It comes down to this: Is murder wrong?  yes or no? 
This whole "right to choose" is crap.  You chose to have sex or not.  you chose to get on the pill or not, you chose to use a condom or not.  And there's even the whole morning after pill which I object to. 
And don't even get me started on "rape exceptions".  Rape is bad, BUT if you rape someone and you have a 6 month old son when you do, and you get caught, the penalty is not the dismemberment of your 6-month-old.  And NO you aren't "forced to raise your rapist's child" unless you decide to not give it up for adoption.   
Point blank, it's murder. If you accept abortion as being ok, then you are saying that you are ok with murder if the person being killed is considered inconvenient to someone else, and that is hideous.

[Jazzhead]

Why is it that you never, ever, EVER seem to answer the question about the humanity and rights of the child?

I haven't dodged your question - I've been very explicit in stating my belief that abortion is wrong.

But it's not up to me (or you) to decide - and it certainly shouldn't be up to the state.

An adult woman must have the right to decide for herself.   Persuade her to do the right thing!   

[txradioguy]

An adult woman must have the right to decide for herself.   Persuade her to do the right thing!

But by your own statements here...I can't.  I'm a man and have no say in the decision.

[Norm Lenhart]

That's up to the woman to decide - not the state.   I know you don't like that answer, but it's the only answer that's consistent with the woman's liberty.

She did decide. She had sex. That carries the inherent risk of pregnancy. At conception, a new life with it's own humanity came into being and 'trumped' her 'choice' to regret her actions.

No one requires sex to live. Sex is a choice, not an imperative to live. She chose sex, she got pregnant, now she can carry to term and give the child up for adoption. Actions have consequence. The woman could avoid them by celibacy.

[Jazzhead]

You've never had to pay child support, have you?

Nope.  I've stuck with my spouse, and my children.   

[Wingnut]

As a staunch pro-lifer (adopted when I was 4 days old, in 1976, bio-father was married and pressuring bio-mother to have an abortion)  I can't argue with people who are pro-abortion because it makes me irate.
It comes down to this: Is murder wrong?  yes or no? 
This whole "right to choose" is crap.  You chose to have sex or not.  you chose to get on the pill or not, you chose to use a condom or not.  And there's even the whole morning after pill which I object to. 
And don't even get me started on "rape exceptions".  Rape is bad, BUT if you rape someone and you have a 6 month old son when you do, and you get caught, the penalty is not the dismemberment of your 6-month-old.  And NO you aren't "forced to raise your rapist's child" unless you decide to not give it up for adoption.   
Point blank, it's murder. If you accept abortion as being ok, then you are saying that you are ok with murder if the person being killed is considered inconvenient to someone else, and that is hideous.

Very well said.  But remember Liberalism is a mental disease.  So what you and I see as a living human organism they only see as a gob of tissue to be thrown out in the trash.

[Jazzhead]

But by your own statements here...I can't.  I'm a man and have no say in the decision.

You have the power of persuasion.  Stick with your partner, help her out financially, give her moral support.  Play your cards right, and she'll do the right thing.   (Many if not most abortions come about because the man has headed for the hills.  If men were more responsible, there'd be a lot fewer abortions.)   

But, no, you have no right whatsoever to force your partner to abort, or to give birth.   And neither should the state.   

[Cyber Liberty]

Nope.  I've stuck with my spouse, and my children.

Then you are approaching the subject of "burden" from a position of ignorance.  Not everybody is blessed with a spouse like yours.  Try to see things from somebody else's point of view once in a while.

[Jazzhead]

She did decide. She had sex. That carries the inherent risk of pregnancy. At conception, a new life with it's own humanity came into being and 'trumped' her 'choice' to regret her actions.

No one requires sex to live. Sex is a choice, not an imperative to live. She chose sex, she got pregnant, now she can carry to term and give the child up for adoption. Actions have consequence. The woman could avoid them by celibacy.

I doubt very much that you've "chosen celibacy".   Your seconds of pleasure leads to nine months of burden for the woman.   The decision is hers, bub - it has to be.     

[r9etb]

If you accept abortion as being ok, then you are saying that you are ok with murder if the person being killed is considered inconvenient to someone else, and that is hideous.

Thanks for your post.  You hit on the real issue, right here.  Setting the "hard choices" aside for the moment; if you look at the typical arguments for abortion they very often do come down to arguments of convenience.  "It's not the right time in my life to have a baby.  I'd have to quit school.  It's too expensive." 

One also hears the "better off dead" argument -- I can't justify bringing a child into my situation (i.e., she's better off dead).  A form of this is the eugenic argument, so often applied in practice to Downs babies.

That said, we shouldn't minimize the distress of the women are faced with a pregnancy they didn't want.  It's difficult.  It can be scary.  Their lives will be harder, and their children's lives are often very difficult, indeed.  Pregnancy does affect women's bodies, and there's a non-zero risk from carrying a baby to term.

These things can be addressed -- and need to be addressed if we're to do away with abortion.

[r9etb]

I haven't dodged your question - I've been very explicit in stating my belief that abortion is wrong.

"Wrong," why?  What makes it so? 

[Jazzhead]

Then you are approaching the subject of "burden" from a position of ignorance.  Not everybody is blessed with a spouse like yours.  Try to see things from somebody else's point of view once in a while.

So what are you saying?  That a man shouldn't be financially responsible for the child he produces?   That's exactly the attitude that forces so many women to seek abortions - and often, it's the man who leans hard on his partner to take care of his little problem with a trip to PP.   

[Wingnut]

  Your seconds of pleasure leads to nine months of burden

Burden?  How Obama of you.

[Norm Lenhart]

I doubt very much that you've "chosen celibacy".   Your seconds of pleasure leads to nine months of burden for the woman.   The decision is hers, bub - it has to be.   

Are you inferring that a woman can become pregnant in some other way, excluding rape, than by choice? Are women so ignorant as to not have the capacity to act on the word 'no'? So mindless as to let sexual urges override intelligence?

Actually 'Bub', The decision may be made by her but it's murder. No way around it. And advocating for it is evil defined.

[Jazzhead]

That said, we shouldn't minimize the distress of the women are faced with a pregnancy they didn't want.  It's difficult.  It can be scary.  Their lives will be harder, and their children's lives are often very difficult, indeed.  Pregnancy does affect women's bodies, and there's a non-zero risk from carrying a baby to term.

Thank you.  That is the reality, and why it must be the woman's decision.   

The best way to make abortion obsolete is to make unplanned pregnancies obsolete.   

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

Rape is wrong, but women should have no say about it, and certainly not the state.

A rapist must have the right to decide for himself.   Persuade him to do the right thing!