Author Topic: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today  (Read 54124 times)

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #375 on: January 25, 2017, 03:30:01 pm »
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Finally,IMHO,there is an explicit implied contract between two adults having consensual sex to be responsible for any child that may result from that act. It does NOT mean they are required to marry and raise the child,or to even raise the child. There are plenty of couples and even single adults out there more than willing to adopt an infant,so neither the mother nor the father gets to whine about the "unfair burden of raising a child". You are both responsible for that child until it is born,and after that you can put it up for adoption,and go back to living your normal lives,hopefully having learned a lesson.

I can agree with that.  That's part of why I think abortion is wrong - it's a copout from responsibility.   

But as a legal matter,  it is unworkable to provide a right to the man to force an abortion, or force the woman to carry the fetus to term.  And it is un-Constitutional for the government to force a woman to reproduce.    The woman bears the burden, like it or not, that's just biology.   It is her choice, for better or worse.

 
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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #376 on: January 25, 2017, 03:33:44 pm »


Well, I have to say your grammar is better than most of the leftists I see hurling insults at people, I'll give you that much.  Your argumentation needs a little brushing up, though.
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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #377 on: January 25, 2017, 03:43:55 pm »
@Jazzhead

Women and other "Sensitive creatures" claim they want equal rights. If THEY have the legal right to abort a healthy fetus that poses no immediate physical threat to her,then THEY must ALSO recognize both the legal and the moral right of the man that helped create that fetus. If the male wants the child and the female doesn't,the old term "tough titty" comes into play. She is an adult and it was her responsibility to make the decision to not have sex with that man,or to have herself sterilized prior to having sex with him.

Of course,this is a two-way street. If the man doesn't want to have that child,it was HIS obligation,and no one else's,to have a vasectomy prior to having sex with her or any other female.  Once again,the old "tough titty" law comes into play. He was an adult and he damn sure needs to be held responsible for his actions. Including the financial responsibilities to help pay for the medical care and the raising of the resulting child. If you ain't willing to accept your responsibility,get trimmed or keep it in your pants.

NO female human gets pregnant by herself except in cases of rape,so NO female human gets to decide what happens as a result of any non-rape sexual joining.

Finally,IMHO,there is an explicit implied contract between two adults having consensual sex to be responsible for any child that may result from that act. It does NOT mean they are required to marry and raise the child,or to even raise the child. There are plenty of couples and even single adults out there more than willing to adopt an infant,so neither the mother nor the father gets to whine about the "unfair burden of raising a child". You are both responsible for that child until it is born,and after that you can put it up for adoption,and go back to living your normal lives,hopefully having learned a lesson.

For those cases where the male and/or female are both sexually mature but still legally minors,once again the "tough titty" law applies. The only difference is the parents of both of those minors are financially responsible for the actions of their minor children,just like they are responsible for the financial obligations that occur if their children were to vandalize cars or neighbors houses. Anybody that ever promised you that life was always going to be easy and pleasant lied to you. Man/Woman up and accept your damn responsibilities!

And finally,for the religious loons,God did not create that baby,but if you really believe he did,then God should pay all the medical expenses related to bringing it to birth and raising it to become an adult. If  you don't agree with this,STFU about things like the "morning after pill". Up to the point a fetus can survive outside the womb by breathing for itself and eating/drinking milk,it's not a child.It is a fetus and a POTENTIAL child. Of course,once that status is reached,there should be no abortions at all for any reason except in cases where the life of the mother is at actual risk if she carries to term,NOT "potential risk" or "emotional risk". You bought the ticket,you take the damn ride!

If this pleases those who read it,good! If it doesn't,I don't really give a rabid rats ass. Complain to someone else.

@sneakypete

Agree with almost everything you say here.  The exceptions:

1) I'm a religious loon by your definition, and I won't be shutting the blank up, so deal with that.  (And I mean that in a general sense; I'm not going to try to turn  the forum into a religion board, per management requests).

2) There is no such thing as a "potential" child.  The unborn life in the womb is just that---unborn.  It is still a baby.  It isn't a fish, or a chicken, or a salamander, or a Reuben on rye that suddenly morphs into a child.

3")Women and other "Sensitive creatures" claim they want equal rights."------I've always had equal rights and I've always thought these women's protests were pointless and stupid.  However, you use "sensitive creatures" in a deprecatory sense, and I want to correct you on that.  As a woman, I'm naturally more sensitive and emotional than a man, and I embrace it. In fact, that's how it's meant to be, and it's one of the reasons men and women complement each other so beautifully.

Other than those points, you're right on target.  This emotional and equal female wishes you a great day.   :seeya:

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #378 on: January 25, 2017, 03:45:42 pm »
I blame the Beatles.

LOL!

Yep.....John Lennon!    :laugh:
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #379 on: January 25, 2017, 03:51:42 pm »
No, you don't.  What you care about is imposing your version of tyranny on the rest of us.

You are absolutely right.

Jazzhead is pro-abortion in this thread, through a lack of command of the facts, claiming to be a libertarian on the issue but callously forgetting that US taxpayers pay for this; that's a libertarian issue too,

So, Jazzhead then selfishly diverts the conversation away from the nuts and bolts of funding planned parenthood overseas; scowling at social conservatives, "whatever that means", condescending.

And now, has clearly broken the rules with a personal attack.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #380 on: January 25, 2017, 03:53:53 pm »
I can agree with that.  That's part of why I think abortion is wrong - it's a copout from responsibility.   

But as a legal matter,  it is unworkable to provide a right to the man to force an abortion, or force the woman to carry the fetus to term.  And it is un-Constitutional for the government to force a woman to reproduce.    The woman bears the burden, like it or not, that's just biology.   It is her choice, for better or worse.

 


You appear pro-abortion because you have scowled at talk of defunding abortion overseas and run this old liberal mantra about a woman's right.

If you were against abortion, you would be talking about how good it was to defund planned parenthood international; not saying things like you don't want the president to wade into abortion, again, a president you have slandered as a fascist.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 03:59:06 pm by TomSea »

Offline Mod2

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #381 on: January 25, 2017, 03:59:04 pm »
A topic. This thread supposedly has one.

Stick to it or I lock the thread.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #382 on: January 25, 2017, 04:05:37 pm »

You appear pro-abortion because you have scowled at talk of defunding abortion overseas and run this old liberal mantra about a woman's right.

If you were against abortion, you would be talking about how good it was to defund planned parenthood international; not saying things like you don't want the president to wade into abortion, again, a president you have slandered as a fascist.

I'm not Trump's lackey, but I do want him to succeed.   I want him to focus on jobs and economic growth.  To do so will require the cooperation of Congress.  The hyper-partisan abortion war divides this nation,  and are futile and pointless because a woman's liberty is not going to be taken away.   That's why I say focus on persuasion and not coercion.   Shit-can the ridiculous abortion war, so progress can be made on what's important - jobs, growth, prosperity AND the saving of lives.

Pro-lifers who obsess over the abortion war are doing us all a disservice, especially the unborn.   
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 04:07:02 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #383 on: January 25, 2017, 04:07:06 pm »
Of course the mom isn't "stuck with it".  She can give it up for adoption.  That's what pro-lifers should do.  Support adoption.   That would do a heck of a lot more good than demanding the state punish women for having sex.     
Wow. I'll be sure to tell my wife it was the state that made our babies... :whistle:
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #384 on: January 25, 2017, 04:09:22 pm »
Wow. I'll be sure to tell my wife it was the state that made our babies... :whistle:

Adoption.

Yes, but Planned Parenthood and the abortion lobby campaign furiously against pregnancy crisis centers and even counseling to give up a baby for adoption.

Thus, the argument per one is totally ideological and in this case, I'd say in an ideological world not the real world again.

Another good reason to dethrone planned parenthood - on topic.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 04:10:20 pm by TomSea »

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #385 on: January 25, 2017, 04:11:01 pm »
Adoption.

Yes, but Planned Parenthood and the abortion lobby campaign furiously against pregnancy crisis centers and even counseling to give up a baby for adoption.

Thus, the argument per one is totally ideological and in this case, I'd say in an ideological world.

Another good reason to dethrone planned parenthood - on topic.

I'm still trying to figure out the "logic" of how the woman is absolved of any responsibility for getting pregnant...yet given 100% of the responsibility for ending the baby's life.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #386 on: January 25, 2017, 04:11:26 pm »
As a Conservative and Libertarian, I'm glad tax payer monies are not going to be used to fund planned parenthood international.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #387 on: January 25, 2017, 04:15:18 pm »
Tyranny?  Since when is the defense of individual liberty "tyranny"?   

There have been a lot of thoughtful posts on this thread, but not one of them has come from you.
Because babies are individuals.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #388 on: January 25, 2017, 04:17:24 pm »
Pro-lifers who obsess over the abortion war are doing us all a disservice, especially the unborn.   

What about pro-Constitutioners who obsess over the 'legal' atrocity of tyrannical courts that impose their morality on the rest of us through fiat with zero regard for the Constitution of the United States of America.  Are they doing a disservice as well?

I suppose in your case, it would matter as to what version of morality was being imposed before you could answer that question.  Because you seem perfectly content with the Constitution being trampled upon as long as you get your way.


A key source of the vituperation on this thread is an inability or unwillingness to distinguish between legal standards and moral standards.   

The legal standard is the only standard which I have addressed on this thread.  And you are the one exhibiting both inability and unwillingness to do likewise.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #389 on: January 25, 2017, 04:19:22 pm »
Adoption.

Yes, but Planned Parenthood and the abortion lobby campaign furiously against pregnancy crisis centers and even counseling to give up a baby for adoption.

Thus, the argument per one is totally ideological and in this case, I'd say in an ideological world not the real world again.

Another good reason to dethrone planned parenthood - on topic.
Amen to that.

Look at how hard the liberals fought to discredit and hide the evidence behind what planned parenthood was doing. Including straight up lying about the videos when anyone could go watch them unedited. The love they have gotten from media and politicians who want to pretend they represent women is despicable. I will be glad to see an end to that era in America.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #390 on: January 25, 2017, 04:39:03 pm »
Look at how hard the liberals fought to discredit and hide the evidence behind what planned parenthood was doing. Including straight up lying about the videos when anyone could go watch them unedited. The love they have gotten from media and politicians who want to pretend they represent women is despicable. I will be glad to see an end to that era in America.

It's fascinating, actually, how much energy people are willing to put into the whole "defend abortion" thing.  There are people who evidently see their entire lives through the lens of abortion.

To expend that much energy to ensure the right to kill children is ... well, it's demonic.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #391 on: January 25, 2017, 04:44:03 pm »
Because babies are individuals.

The discussion doesn't concern babies.  It concerns the right of a woman to exercise dominion over her own body.  A non-viable fetus has no legal rights vis a vis the mother.   She hasn't assumed a legal duty of care.  Persuade her to do so, as a moral matter.  But don't sic the state to compel women to become incubators against their will.   
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #392 on: January 25, 2017, 04:51:12 pm »
The discussion doesn't concern babies.  It concerns the right of a woman to exercise dominion over her own body.  A non-viable fetus has no legal rights vis a vis the mother.   She hasn't assumed a legal duty of care.  Persuade her to do so, as a moral matter.  But don't sic the state to compel women to become incubators against their will.   
Do you have kids? I can't believe anybody can be this ignorant.

So I'll ask again. Does a 5 month premie have rights and an unborn 7 month old doesn't?
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #393 on: January 25, 2017, 04:55:19 pm »
   

Quote
But as a legal matter,  it is unworkable to provide a right to the man to force an abortion,


WHERE have I EVER said  or even implied any such thing?

Quote
.... or force the woman to carry the fetus to term.

Nobody is forcing her to do a damn thing. She knew before she had sex that it could lead to pregnancy,and if she is old enough to get pregnant she is old enough to accept the obligations that result from her decisions. WE,THE PEOPLE,ain't her damn daddy OR her baby daddy.

Now,I DO agree that if the woman is left alone without the financial resources to provide the prenatal care,shelter,etc,etc,etc,necessary to bring a healthy child to term that we,the people  DO  have a moral obligation to provide her with the things she needs in order to protect the new human and citizen growing within her. I also think there needs to be limits on our collective generosity. Any woman who relies on the public/the government to be her baby daddy twice gets a mandatory surgical sterilization. Nobody gets a free ride. There comes a point in every adult's lives where they have to accept and live up to their responsibilities.

It should also go unsaid,but I need to say it anyhow to clear the air. No woman in all of history has ever gotten pregnant by herself. Part,or maybe even all,of the money the government gives to that woman to provide for and protect her unborn child  should come from the male that fathered that child. Any male that doesn't like this has the option of getting a vasectomy or keeping it in his pants so it doesn't happen again.

We,ALL Americans that are adults or what we laughingly call "adults" these days need to learn or relearn what those of us who grew up prior to the 1960's accepted as normal,YOU,AS AN ADULT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN BAD DECISIONS,AND THIS MEANS YOU PAY FOR THEM. Don't like it,quit making bad decisions.


 
Quote
And it is un-Constitutional for the government to force a woman to reproduce. 


Nobody is forcing her to reproduce. SHE made that decision when she chose to have sex knowing there was a possibility she would get pregnant. Beyond that,there are morning after pills she can take these days to prevent a pregnancy from even happening,as well as early-term abortions where she can abort the fetus before it becomes a viable human being. Just like men need to "MAN THE HELL UP!",women need to "WOMAN THE HELL UP!"

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The woman bears the burden, like it or not, that's just biology.


Are you implying females are stupid and don't understand this BEFORE getting pregnant?

 
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It is her choice, for better or worse.

Yup,and if she lets it get far enough along the line to become viable,that was her choice also,and she needs to face up to HER obligations just like the man does. What could be fairer?

 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 04:57:59 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #394 on: January 25, 2017, 04:56:53 pm »
The discussion doesn't concern babies.  It concerns the right of a woman to exercise dominion over her own body.  A non-viable fetus has no legal rights vis a vis the mother.   She hasn't assumed a legal duty of care.

Of course this discussion concerns babies: they're the ones whose bodies are destroyed by shredding or poison.  It's unfathomable that you're able to simply dismiss the truth of what happens to them.


I've been trying to figure out where you're coming from in this discussion.  I begin to wonder if it's because you've been personally involved in a situation that ended in abortion, and you're trying to justify what you did.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #395 on: January 25, 2017, 05:01:42 pm »
Do you have kids? I can't believe anybody can be this ignorant.

So I'll ask again. Does a 5 month premie have rights and an unborn 7 month old doesn't?

@Idaho_Cowboy   @Jazzhead

In jazzhead's defense,he did use the word "non-viable". It's still a fetus,not a baby. Anybody that doesn't understand the difference is operating off of emotion,not logic,and their opinions are worth as much as farts. Which is where the term "brain farts" comes from.

A 5 month old premie is a BABY,not a fetus. I may be wrong because I make zero attempt to keep up with this,but I THINK the current standard is anything newer than 90 days is a fetus,and anything 91 days or more is a baby. Seems reasonable to me.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 05:10:58 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #396 on: January 25, 2017, 05:06:48 pm »
@Idaho_Cowboy   @Jazzhead
 I may be wrong because I make zero attempt to keep up with this,but I THINK the current standard is anything newer than 90 days is a fetus,and anything 91 days or more is a baby. Seems reasonable to me.
Is there some magical change on that day that I don't know about?

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #397 on: January 25, 2017, 05:07:55 pm »

@r9etb @Jazzhead

Of course this discussion concerns babies: they're the ones whose bodies are destroyed by shredding or poison.

No,it doesn't. Jazzhead CLEARLY stated "non-viable". It's not a baby until it is viable.

Quote
I've been trying to figure out where you're coming from in this discussion.
 

A game we all play at one time or another,but in the end,what difference does it make? We all have reasons,or at least what WE think are reasons,to think and act like we do.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 05:09:52 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #398 on: January 25, 2017, 05:12:46 pm »
Is there some magical change on that day that I don't know about?

@Idaho_Cowboy

Since you obviously believe that life begins at erection,I'd have to say there is a great deal of things you don't know or refuse to understand.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #399 on: January 25, 2017, 05:14:44 pm »
@Idaho_Cowboy

Since you obviously believe that life begins at erection,I'd have to say there is a great deal of things you don't know or refuse to understand.
I can live with that.
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